Plum guide tech binding

[SimB]

Asked the guy at skinny skis and he thought it would work. I'll give it try.

[univurshul]

One of my coworkers straight up exploded a Plum Guide a couple weeks ago at Loveland on a demo day. The binding was on a Black Diamond demo ski, and the rep who set the bindings (a respected member of the TGR community) is positive that she set the bindings correctly. The plastic around the pins on the heel shattered and the entire heel unit was shoved backwards on the track.

This happened on the new BD Justice 185cm (a fairly soft ski), on a blue groomer at Loveland in the middle of a turn, big/powerful guy with a Scarpa Skookum boot. Our theory is that he flexed the ski hard enough to shorten the distance between the toe and heel of the binding, the binding hit his boot heel and broke. Wish I had taken a picture of the binding. He normally skis Dynafit Vertical FT12s on 191cm Voile Chargers with no issues.

So I guess make that three failures, not two.

What are you doing skiing a soft-flexing ski on a frozen ocean? Demo day?--wtf? it hasn't snowed in 2.5 months in Colorado. Dumb. Anything breaks if you use it incorrectly. That's dumb. Don't be dumb. wait for the fucking snow, wait for the freeze-melt.

Plake uses this binder without an issue. I have close friends (one who is an AMGA guide based out of La Grave; who has skied/mountaineered with Coombs and many others legends) that ONLY use Plums for ALL types of descents.

FYI, it's chip-molded polymer. not plastic. Big difference: they actually shape that black body-piece by machining it from a solid slab of polymer. Much stronger. But breakeable like all things in this universe. Try driving over it with a dump truck next.

[adrenalated]

What are you doing skiing a soft-flexing ski on a frozen ocean? Demo day?--wtf? it hasn't snowed in 2.5 months in Colorado. Dumb. Anything breaks if you use it incorrectly. That's dumb. Don't be dumb. wait for the fucking snow, wait for the freeze-melt.

The binding is marketed as a durable, hard charging, lightweight binding. It should be able to hold up to skiing an intermediate groomed run. I'm a tele skier, not AT, but I can tell you right now that if I broke a binding skiing a blue groomer I sure as hell wouldn't personally trust that binding in a no-fall backcountry zone.

I'll also note that the same guy skied most of the other "freeride" AT bindings on the market (Marker Duke and Tour F12, Fritschi FR Pro, Dynafit Radical FT, Dynafit Vertical FT) on a variety of skis, mostly soft flexing ones, and did not have any other failures.

[univurshul]

your buddy's in luck then; I'm selling two pairs of Dukes. heavy-ass teetering bullshit binders. thankfully not everyone's ditching obsolete technology. Got Naxo?

Mounting plums on a wet noodle ski on a frozen-tundra day was the first mistake, the second was trusting a demo pair (like, let's bash a pair taken to a vise, mounted incorrectly, fuck who knows what it's been through and who's sabotaged it), the third is not using them for what they're made for. Charging down frozen granular runs inbounds is Herman Maier-esque and you're better off on Langes + high DIN binders. I wouldn't call it freeride, but you're entitled to an opinion.

And considering our season in Colorado thus far, Langes + alpine binders will likely win over the mayhem and destruction when provoking a lightweight tech binding over the worst possible conditions.

god, I hate skiing when I hear this crap.

quiver + threaded inserts + plums = solution

[Skidog]

Plake uses this binder without an issue. I have close friends (one who is an AMGA guide based out of La Grave; who has skied/mountaineered with Coombs and many others legends) that ONLY use Plums for ALL types of descents.

And guess what?? Dynafit has been doing the same thing for MUCH MUCH longer...guess this is what happens when patents run out. We get third party boot inserts (that fail and hurt people due to poor R&D) and other "knock off" bindings. Im not saying plums arent good, but they're still really new and just cause they look like a dynafit doesn't mean they are. Dynafit is way more tested.

Just sayin.

[univurshul]

Im not saying plums arent good, but they're still really new and just cause they look like a dynafit doesn't mean they are. Dynafit is way more tested.

The Guides are the improvement that Dynafit couldn't produce. same drill pattern; they have piggy-backed on years of Dynafit R&D. It's a strategic move to win over the Dynafit crowd, and will likely work until Dynafit re-tools their factory and designs something to compete.

The same is true for Plums upcoming release to strategically attack the Duke 16. Apparently it will have the Duke drill pattern with a dedicated brake. --For the "freeriders" who blowup their Plums on mellow groomers. (I personally think it's skier weight. Bigger guys break and release, can't trust the DIN 12 and under products; Plum will address it in a heavier design, and then it's game-over, Duke and Salomon's copycat/piggyback design).

These guys aren't idiots. Of course Dynafit is more tested. And thanks to Dynafit and Duke, a real machinist is making them the way they should be.

[auvgeek]

The same is true for Plums upcoming release to strategically attack the Duke 16. Apparently it will have the Duke drill pattern with a dedicated brake. --For the "freeriders" who blowup their Plums on mellow groomers. (I personally think it's skier weight. Bigger guys break and release, can't trust the DIN 12 and under products; Plum will address it in a heavier design, and then it's game-over, Duke and Salomon's copycat/piggyback design).

First of all, I have bought a pair of Plum Guides, and I really hope that they're better than my FT12. But how do you explain the fact that people have skied Dynafits down mellow groomers for years and the number of reported failures (of which I'm aware) are relatively low compared to the number of units they have out there? Plum, on the other hand, has relatively few units out there and there have been three reported failures in this thread. In this particular instance, the "bigger guy" had no problems with a Dynafit binder in the same conditions (or that's how I understand the situation; I wasn't there and I don't know the guy).

I'm not saying Plums might not be better (and I really hope they are!), but it's a little disconcerting that you're failing to acknowledge there MIGHT be a problem when we see a few early failures of a relatively-untested product.

[skifishbum]

While I have yet to ski the plums or the new dyna radicals Imo the new dyna no volcano twisting heel riseres are great lookin and seem to be a more user friendly method

[LeeLau]

Speaking for myself - no brakes no sale. And all the anti-brakes crowd can pontificate all they want but many other people feel the same way. DISCLOSURE of course that I test Dynafit products for Salewa

Bottom line IMO is that competition drives improvement.

[Skidog]

--For the "freeriders" who blowup their Plums on mellow groomers. (I personally think it's skier weight. Bigger guys break and release, can't trust the DIN 12 and under products; Plum will address it in a heavier design, and then it's game-over, Duke and Salomon's copycat/piggyback design).

hey... 6'3", 200+lbs dude here..ripped groomers more than a few times with my measly comforts (10din) with ZERO issues.

Better product...pppfffftttttt....seems all they've really done is up the din a tad and add a nicer, stronger alternative to the plastic volcanoes....nothing "groundbreaking" all copied.

Im with LeeLau though...competition drives innovation. Dynafit isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[GeezerSteve]

Soft underfoot ski + long BSL + firm conditions = potential for heel bashing the rear binding fixture on tech bindings. Too small a gap can greatly contribute to the bash. I smell a misadjustment re this recent failure, but that's pure speculation. I've heard or read about a handful of Dynafit FT/ST/Comfort heel spindles breaking, but all after several seasons of use, i.e., fatigue failures. Very rare. I also suspect that the users locked out their toes because IME if the toe is in ski mode the boot blows out of the toe jaws with a bigass heel bang. FWIW, I've never heard of the stouter Speed/Classic heel spindle breaking -- which is one reason I use Speeds (with ground off Le Bump and sometimes retrofitted with longer FT/ST/Comfort heel pins; GregL does that too).

I'm 240+ lbs. and have hundreds of days on Comforts, Speeds and FTs, including lots of travel in frozen conditions which are harder on tech bindings than the world's worst groomer, way too much lift skiing and lots of days with a big pack. 3 broken heel pins and a few broken Comfort volcanoes (replaced with B&D volcanoes). IME, Speeds retrofitted with longer heel pins and grounded off Le Bump really doesn't need to be improved to fit my needs.

I'm glad to see the competition but maybe it's too early to declare the PG to be manifestly superior to all other tech bindings.

[univurshul]

I already admitted things break, and failure is inevitable across the board.

The three other accounts of broken plums are littered with variables; many of which could have nothing to do with the binding's construction or craftsmanship, or they could be entirely related to bad design (fair enough). I agree that the leashes are a bad design at best--for my type of skiing--not for others. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.

Anyway, I came to this thread to study what the Plum brake model will look like and what layout the drill pattern will mirror. I have my conclusions drawn, thanks for everyone's input.


Leaving for Canada where it actually snows in 2011....

Cheers.

[thin cover]

I agree with the sentiment, as I have said before, that tech bindings coupled with large or agressive skiers are taking a risk if they expose the binder to prolonged periods of firm surfaces especially if its steeper terrain. No saying it warrants failure if you do ski them like this, but these are the factual limitations that have been evidenced to produce problems.

Picture below display the Plums's that I have, they have spoke about the 16 din and how that is being tested now along with a wider foot print guide to drive wider skis. But this is what they gave to me so far and they should be announcing the attachment shortly if they have not already. I am kind of surprised that it is not on their site yet. The attachment will some sort of stabilizer plate that will fit under the heel and allow for better control and less load on the pins, they said they designed them "for bigger skiers and more aggressive skiers". as you can see the screw does not get any purchase in the ski, so this will not be another mount hole. Interested to see how this works.

[univurshul]

and those of us who don't have that 5th screw aren't eligible for the add-on I'm assuming?

[bern43]

Interesting about that 5th hole. How many people actually have a base plate with that pattern? Mine don't have it and I'm curious.

[samthaman]

your buddy's in luck then; I'm selling two pairs of Dukes. heavy-ass teetering bullshit binders. thankfully not everyone's ditching obsolete technology. Got Naxo?

Mounting plums on a wet noodle ski on a frozen-tundra day was the first mistake, the second was trusting a demo pair (like, let's bash a pair taken to a vise, mounted incorrectly, fuck who knows what it's been through and who's sabotaged it), the third is not using them for what they're made for. Charging down frozen granular runs inbounds is Herman Maier-esque and you're better off on Langes + high DIN binders. I wouldn't call it freeride, but you're entitled to an opinion.

And considering our season in Colorado thus far, Langes + alpine binders will likely win over the mayhem and destruction when provoking a lightweight tech binding over the worst possible conditions.

god, I hate skiing when I hear this crap.

quiver + threaded inserts + plums = solution

Do you work for plume or something? Don't be such a defensive crybaby about your bindings. Backcountry skiing involves variable snow, so if plumes aren't for ice, they aren't for BC skiing. get over it.

I've personally seen two pair of Guides with issues. One had a toe pin fall out and the other had a heel pin self destruct and fall out of the binding. One of the pairs didn't seem to want to stay in "ski" mode no matter how hard you willed it. I've had my fair share of issues with dynafit stuff and have LOTS of critiques for their products, but I can't say I've ever had an integral part of one of their bindings fall apart under normal use.

[LeeLau]

Plum koolaid must taste good - so many want it. At least as tasty as Dynafit koolaid

[1000-oaks]

I don't understand how an add-on for the heel would benefit use on wider skis...why not just a longer/wider baseplate with Duke mounting holes?

And making the foot on the heel post 1/8" wider would sure help transfer loads to the heel plate. It's beyond me why they end the foot at the far side of the slot for the adjustment screws, which puts all the load on the thin strips to the inside of the adjustment screws. If the foot was even a tiny bit wider they could tuck the sides of the foot under the outside rails of the heel plate too, probably quadrupling the strength of the interface during torsional loading.

[univurshul]

Do you work for plume or something? Don't be such a defensive crybaby about your bindings. Backcountry skiing involves variable snow, so if plumes aren't for ice, they aren't for BC skiing. get over it.

I've personally seen two pair of Guides with issues. One had a toe pin fall out and the other had a heel pin self destruct and fall out of the binding. One of the pairs didn't seem to want to stay in "ski" mode no matter how hard you willed it. I've had my fair share of issues with dynafit stuff and have LOTS of critiques for their products, but I can't say I've ever had an integral part of one of their bindings fall apart under normal use.

don't be a douche because you like dynafits over plums or gave all your coin to dynafit. if you actually read all my posts you'd see I'm a skeptic and fair to all tech and alpine systems.

[univurshul]

@ samthaman: skis actually make a big deal for what conditions you ski that day--they affect the binding, etc.. Just like surfing, you wouldn't take a 6'-1" squash tail out on a big day at Mavericks. same deal for that guy who blewup a demo pair of Plums. No one knows if he broke it, or someone/something else led to it's breaking--like choosing the wrong ski for that day. I agree with you that this binding should be able to charge on ice, yes. But the ski and skier weight has more to do with it than anything in this failure if you ask me. A quiver saves your bindings. run threaded inserts and ski one binding in all conditions. And know your weight-force applied to a standardized DIN specification. If you're used to running binders at DIN14 and you think a Plum will accomodate you, you're just asking for it--ice or no ice.

The Guides have a higher toe tension when skied on walk mode. But Plum would never recommend this because of liability and it's hard to calculate what that DIN is. But that doesn't make it a justifiable option for skiers accustomed to higher DINs--who until now have never invested into tech systems--to go out push a Plum Guide beyond its limits. If Plum didn't make a tech binder exceeding 10 DIN, I highly doubt the ski community would even consider it. But since it's approaching the strength a lot of agressive skiers are used to, now we have a group expecting miracles to happen at DIN 12. I don't blame them, everyone wants lighter, better gear. But when aluminum replaces steel, and DIN 12 replaces DIN 14, you have no one to blame but yourself.

When surfing big days, we know we could be swimming back to shore with broken gear. Same for skiing: buried trunks, cliff drops---fucking ANYTHING could happen.

it's life. get over it.

no, I don't work for plum. I work for myself. I design and build. never ski equipment, though. I couldn't imagine dealing with customers like you who want to live forever, and gear that is eternal.

If you drop your iphone do you blame Apple?

[samthaman]

If you drop your iphone do you blame Apple?

No, but I might call them to see if they'd fix it. Outdoor customers have been trained to expect "lifetime" warranties and unlimited return policies. Personally I think its a stupid slippery slope that the retailers and manufacturers stepped out on, but they did, some time ago I might add.

I think that we're talking past each other a bit. Your surfing analogy is spot on: bring out the burly gear on big/dangerous/exposed lines/days whatever. You never know what will happen and you might need to swim/bootpack back if your gear fails. I think that's exactly the reason a lot of people drank the plume kool-aid; they thought they'd be burlier than the standard offerings from dynafit. The guide still might be, but these failures are certainly not confidence inspiring.

RE- working on ice, I agree the skis make a big difference and this sounds like it was a pretty exceptional case, but how many times have people done the same thing on dynafits and not had problems? I think that even if someone is a din 14+ skier, their binding failures should be pre-releases, not the complete destruction of the heel piece (based off the OP's description).

[GeezerSteve]

I don't understand how an add-on for the heel would benefit use on wider skis...

It's a compression member under the boot heel which lessens the load on the heel pins. Some of us have experimented with DIY versions. It's not specific to wide skis.

if you actually read all my posts you'd see I'm a skeptic and fair to all tech and alpine systems.

To this objective observer, your posts manifest a very strong bias in favor of Plums. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's not a conscious bias and merely early adopter rationalization.

[skifishbum]

don't be a douche because you like dynafits over plums or gave all your coin to dynafit. if you actually read all my posts you'd see I'm a skeptic and fair to all tech and alpine systems.

ive read your posts and damn you is super informed and opinionated
can't find the stoke though
You gots?????

[auvgeek]

To this objective observer, your posts manifest a very strong bias in favor of Plumes.

+1. And I even drank the Plum kool aid...or, well, I bought a pair.

I think it's rational to have concerns over the number of failures of the binding at this point.

[dynamike]

Just how many failures are we talking about here? 10? 1% of units sold? I don't know what the answer is but I'd bet its on par with Dynafit. Personally I don't think Dynafit were improving their product and thus the switch to Plum. That said, I'm not sure I would have bought them knowing they were going to drop the ball on the brakes. Lots of good points here as we're all after the same thing - a better tech binding.