Plum guide tech binding

[univurshul]

Should be fine for those who don't plan on using brakes . . .

if you were anticipating the aftermarket brake from the manufacturer as rumored, you have every reason to be reluctant in mounting this year's Plums. But I suppose that's the risk you take with rumors. Eventually, brakes make a set of skis more versatile. Opening the box is awesome and jaw dropping, until you see these boot straps. light? -yes. good design?-no.

The biggest deal is the drill pattern, not so much the generation/model number. I have two pairs of pure carbon skis ready for threaded inserts. If Plum changes the drill pattern next year with the brake (and probably a treatment to "walk-is-lock"), someone shoot me, rob me of my skis and take every remaining benjamin in my wallet. F**k me, binders are such a bitch...

"walk-is-lock"....cool. but what about freedride and iron-crossing 35 ft above a tree cluster?--I'll tweak that toe piece lever first big day.

[thin cover]

if you were anticipating the aftermarket brake from the manufacturer as rumored, you have every reason to be reluctant in mounting this year's Plums. But I suppose that's the risk you take with rumors. Eventually, brakes make a set of skis more versatile. Opening the box is awesome and jaw dropping, until you see these boot straps. light? -yes. good design?-no.

The biggest deal is the drill pattern, not so much the generation/model number. I have two pairs of pure carbon skis ready for threaded inserts. If Plum changes the drill pattern next year with the brake (and probably a treatment to "walk-is-lock"), someone shoot me, rob me of my skis and take every remaining benjamin in my wallet. F**k me, binders are such a bitch...

"walk-is-lock"....cool. but what about freedride and iron-crossing 35 ft above a tree cluster?--I'll tweak that toe piece lever first big day.

I got no plan to use brakes, but can understand what you are saying. Although they tell me it will be the first truly functional tech binding brake and they think it will give them a great competitive advantage.

[Jonathan S.]

G3 Onyx/Ruby is pretty much 12 even or a little over. (I'll have La Sportiva / ATK RT next week for more measurement fun -- I just hope that all four Tech bindings can get along with each other in my ski room!)
I wouldn't get hung up on these precise measurements, since I'm just reading the caliper display from when I got the "best" reading but for all the models except the Speed, the variation among models is actually less than the variation I can get with slightly different measurement techniques (e.g., exactly which part of the plastic housing to use). So bottomline is that Speed is definitely and significantly shorter, while all the others are pretty much the same.

RT is about 11.2mm (with 4mm recommended gap). So given all the prior caveats, it's definitely longer than the Speed, but shorter than the Comfort/Vertical, as well as G3 Onyx/Ruby & Plum Guide.

[sqikunst]

So in terms of installing Dynafit breaks on these bad boys. Got the PDF spec sheets and just in terms of raw figuring it should not be a problem to fit the Dynafit brake onto the PLUM heal. The Plates are the same with within 1.5mm (In comparison to the TLT Speed). The only real bitch is that once the breaks are on the ability to move the binding fore or aft is gone becuase the retention plate is then over the two screws.



The real prob comes when switching between skis. The plan was to use Sollyfit plates to swap between a Salomon shogun 191cm and the 192 Rocker 2/ Praxis Protest. Having a pair of 130mm brakes on a 101mm wasted ski is not optimal. The removing and swaping of breaks is where it becomes a real PITA. I am supprised that no one has tried this before, but I can assume that everyone was just waiting for PLUM to come out with their brakes.

I cant see where any real modifying is going to happen besides some fit and finish and the simplest idea for something that the break should sit on is just making a sort of shim. Beacuse they are going on sollyfits I have the two holes to work with that are meant for the Driver toe. Badabing the brake is then sitting on material at the proper hight in comparison to the Vertical and Radical series. Probably just CNC it out of a PP cutting board and that should be sufficient. Cut 10 of em out in one go and there is my lifetime supply. If they wear down too quick CNC one out of g10.

[iTomahawk]

The real prob comes when switching between skis.

Actually my biggest question is how the PLUM heel will disengage the brake while in touring mode. The brake compatible Dynafit's have a plastic flange that does this, but PLUMs don't. Did you already solve this problem? Good on ya for trying a DIY solution!

I also hope that PLUM doesn't change the hole pattern. The idea of Dynafit + PLUM + inserts on all my skis was a major win until everyone went and changed their drill patterns. I think I'm still gonna run the PLUM toe and swap PLUM/Dynafit heels depending on whether I want brakes on any given day.

[sqikunst]

Actually my biggest question is how the PLUM heel will disengage the brake while in touring mode. The brake compatible Dynafit's have a plastic flange that does this, but PLUMs don't. Did you already solve this problem? Good on ya for trying a DIY solution!

Fuck!! Total brain fart on that front. When looking at the PDF spec sheets for the PLUM and the Dynafit I was concerned on soo many other fronts that this one has slipped my mind.

At this point I can do one of three (after looking at the spec sheets again there are really two options) things. A. Create a three.... (stupid idea!!! stopped the heel pins from engaging.

B. Give up. This is where I ask myself why PLUM didn't add wings on their own? The flanges cannot be some kind of copy right infringement. If there is not copy write infringement and the only reason for now wings is because they wanted to be able to sell their own aftermarket brake system instead of enabling skiers to use the patented dynafit system. Well that just makes them short sighted!! After the invention of things like Quiver killers, Dynadukes and Sollyfits (I have always thought those were three great product names) changing a hole patter from the tried and true Dynafit to god knows what to incorporate your own brake system loses you a bunch of kudos. What is PLUM in my book: best fit and finish out there, light, burly and no plastic = Winning. Spent the last 8 hours breaking my head over this but a real functional DIY brake idea did not come to mind because without flanges the rotation of the heel does not engage the brake. There is always the gangster DIY for the up using my first proposed idea....

Use a rubber band for the up. Take off for the down.

But that is just not elegant and not acceptable by TGR standards ....

C. The last but most drastic idea would to go all out and modify the binding so that it is what I want it to be. PLUM craftsmanship with the option of a brake.

2 pieces of the binding would have to be modified. I am going to insert a pic here to better describe what would need to be done in order to get the Dynafit brake system to work in a way that would make the PLUM binding the ultimate touring binding literally IN THE WORLD ....



First off the easy part. Extent the base plate forward by 35mm giving the brake a surface area to sit on.

^^ Easy peasy right!!

No the bitch part..... Copy the heal housing exactly and then add flanges. I do not know if there is patent infringement on this but personal use is personal use. Now I am a very lucky dude who has access to laser scanners. The 3d kind meaning getting an accurate 3d image of the heel housing will not be that difficult (I am talking about the black bit).

Re-CNC it with flanges and boom problem solved. I am also lucky in that I have access to CNC machines and RAW materials.

However this is all a bunch of work for something that in the end is never marketable. Patents and all that bla bla stuff. It would be cool to work on something like this because if achieved would the end of all which binding is best discussions.

I will have a further look tomorrow. Like you said in theory anything is possible. There are 10 different ways to half ass it but the way described above is how I would do it using the existing parts on the market.

I will still use them without brakes but every time I ski with the attachment cables or whatever they are called of get vivid images of Shane Mcconkey coming to slice parts of my body off with his Volant Machete!!!! ....

let my know what you think.

cheers

[skifishbum]

^^^ strong post kudos on your cool insight on this

[dynamike]

When you get it dialed in I'm in. Just had a look at my old Dynafits and still can't figure out why Plum could not have gotten this right from the start. How could they produce something this nice and not see the brake integration is beyond me. Would love to hear their rationale.

[gregL]

They are French. The majority of Euro ski tourists wouldn't dream of weighing down their tech bindings with brakes. I wouldn't either.

[sqikunst]

They are French. The majority of Euro ski tourists wouldn't dream of weighing down their tech bindings with brakes. I wouldn't either.

This is said shortsightedness in action. Flanges weigh at most 20g extra and a longer baseplate are also minimal increases in weight. See the thing is in all this is that in reality you need 2 pairs of bindings to get a project like this done. The first pair would be the one you actually ski on. What is the point of having PLUM's if they just sit on you tinkering work bench an entire season. Second issue is that when CNCing stuff the best way to test how the part came out is to put the thing back together straight away and test the "fit" of the part. Then it can be modified till it fits perfectly.

In reference to the quote above there are three main segments in the touring "scene" in Europe, with smaller more specialized groups within. " groups spend large amounts of money to get the best but both for 2 different reasons and one just skis on shit.

There are the weight weenies. Its all about light, light, light. No bakes no worries they have a ski that is 175 cm long if that at all that weighs something like 1200g. I am not worried if that hits me in the face. Would be like getting hit by a waffle. These are the guys who have titanium screws that get passed around within the inner sanctum like sacks of heroin.

Then there is the weekend "Tourer", usually on some ungodly shitty foam core cap ski that is just on the far side of scary to ski. Usually have Fritchi bindings and some low end stanky, heavy boot from Lowe for example. No beacons, No shovels, No probes. That is just they way it is over here. You can watch the ant trail of them climbing just about everything where technical skiing is not a must.

Then there is the Freeride segment. Big skis, heavy most of the time and oh not to mention the massive balls Freeriders have to schlepp uphill. This is the most confusing group because there are people will to tour on 5 kilo skis (set), dukes, heavy 130 flex boots and still wear a hoodie in size XXL.

^^ Those dudes I do not get. Lots of weight and I just don't see the point. The duke is sloppy, heavy and from a company which has consistently delivered sub-par bindings for years. So I like tech bindings but Dynafit has consistently put more and more plastic and stamped steel into the products. Plastic = weaker, Stamped metal = cheap and shitty and in all reality cannot even remotely compete with the preciseness of CNC machining.

In all reality PLUM delivered on all fronts but no brakes is where they kind of stumbled. I am a big guy. Well tall anyways, 6'3" and weigh in the neighborhood of 190lb. So the Guide was this perfect tech binding but being big as I am still find the motto big skis truck, short skis suck very true. No Imagine weapon of choice is a 190 DPS Rp112 or 186/196 Renegade. Got your PLUM's with no brakes and you are skiing along and then boom TOMAHAWK!!!! Would you really want those skis to be attached to you while hurtling face and foot first down a face?? Wouldn't be a problem if you had brakes ....

Getting hit in the face by some Trab untralight toothpick is gonna hurt way less and do less damage then say the two skis described above.

All in all making the modified parts is not really a big deal but with all precise machining it can take time to get it right. I also rarely work with metal sooo.... I am more of a laminate, glass, G10 doode.

p.s GregL cool trip reports on you footed link.

[univurshul]

.... still can't figure out why Plum could not have gotten this right from the start. How could they produce something this nice and not see the brake integration is beyond me. Would love to hear their rationale.

I'm claiming they're perfectionist designers. Just like some of the controversial decisions made at Apple, Inc. Plum was probably thinking about just the binding heel and toe; making it stronger and lighter. Weight looks like their primary focus. That alone is a huge success. And now, a freeride model. with brakes. Hopefully the drill pattern stays the same.

Making your own brakes for a plum is cool, and definitely in the spirit of making them freeride, but in a few months the real deal will be sitting in front of you. more DIN too, I'm guessing.

[univurshul]

snowboarders don't use brakes, they don't have DIN. I'm in the camp that prefers a brake. Almost all of us grew up using brakes. I suppose that's the reason why I think it would make a ski more versatile...but maybe I need to get over this and just mount them for a year. Most releases with Plums will be in wait deep pow, and that ski will be going nowhere.

I'll sell this year's Plum as soon as I get next years. Beats the hell out of a Duke, even if the new Plum drill pattern will be a Duke. (dyna-duke plates will allow you to swap this year's and next if this comes to fruition--or just run threaded inserts like I do)

[dynamike]

Perfectionist yes. Shortsighted yes. And I really don't feel like re-drilling my 112's next year! Or purchasing another pair of bingings. I have a friend who lives in Austria - may have to pay sqikunst a visit.

[sb]

Lack of brakes is not gonna prevent me from Plumming it when the snow flies.

My buddy like to use speaker wire to tie down his kayak, should be fine for ski leashes too.

[skifishbum]

They are French. The majority of Euro ski tourists wouldn't dream of weighing down their tech bindings with brakes. I wouldn't either.

LEASCHES??? my dog don't need no stinkin leasches

[gregL]

There are the weight weenies. Its all about light, light, light. No bakes no worries they have a ski that is 175 cm long if that at all that weighs something like 1200g. I am not worried if that hits me in the face. Would be like getting hit by a waffle. These are the guys who have titanium screws that get passed around within the inner sanctum like sacks of heroin.

Then there is the weekend "Tourer", usually on some ungodly shitty foam core cap ski that is just on the far side of scary to ski. Usually have Fritchi bindings and some low end stanky, heavy boot from Lowe for example. No beacons, No shovels, No probes. That is just they way it is over here. You can watch the ant trail of them climbing just about everything where technical skiing is not a must.

Then there is the Freeride segment. Big skis, heavy most of the time and oh not to mention the massive balls Freeriders have to schlepp uphill. This is the most confusing group because there are people will to tour on 5 kilo skis (set), dukes, heavy 130 flex boots and still wear a hoodie in size XXL.

Well summarized, sqikunst - the same three groups exist in North America, with proportionately more representation in the XXL hoodie category. Well, the Fritschi people mostly have beacons, probes and shovels because they read a bunch of posts on Telemarktips about getting those before they go anywhere and there's a good chance they won't be able to call on their cell phone if they have a problem.

Once Euros decide they're in the market for a tech binding, though, they are pretty much all in the "weight weenie" class in some form or other. Never mind not being able to ski worth crap on their skinny light gear. They won't use brakes because some guide they know doesn't, or Kilian Jornet doesn't, etc. Around here (USA) there are many more people moving directly from the freerider class to tech bindings, who already feel stoked to be getting off Dukes and don't think the brakes weigh THAT much more - plus they don't know any guides or who Kilian Jornet is. I imagine the Plum people associate mainly with the rando race and performance light-is-right crowd and until getting hit with a bunch of e-mails from TGR posters simply didn't think in terms of mounting their bindings with brakes or skis over 100mm . . .

[auvgeek]

The biggest deal is the drill pattern, not so much the generation/model number. I have two pairs of pure carbon skis ready for threaded inserts. If Plum changes the drill pattern next year with the brake (and probably a treatment to "walk-is-lock"), someone shoot me, rob me of my skis and take every remaining benjamin in my wallet. F**k me, binders are such a bitch...

This. Literally the exact same situation for me. GAH! Except I no longer have any benjamins left for anyone to steal - Plum and DPS happily took them all.

Brakes aren't that big of a deal to me, though. I've never used leashes before, but I just got some B&D as per tc's recommendation in another thread. They look pretty decent. I don't ski tech binders inbounds, and I try to avoid falling on them in the bc (prereleases aside), so I doubt it will be much of a problem. It's more the idea that if I want to upgrade to Plum's new offerings, I have to drill yet another set of holes in my sticks. Maybe those people who have dedicated touring rigs are on to something...

/FirstWorldProblems.

[sqikunst]

I imagine the Plum people associate mainly with the rando race and performance light-is-right crowd and until getting hit with a bunch of e-mails from TGR posters simply didn't think in terms of mounting their bindings with brakes or skis over 100mm . . .

I can agree with all of that and most of the things above. I am just gonna go for it. Plan on breaking the bank on 2 pairs of Guides. One to tour on and then the second to tinker on.

I'll sell this year's Plum as soon as I get next years. Beats the hell out of a Duke, even if the new Plum drill pattern will be a Duke. (dyna-duke plates will allow you to swap this year's and next if this comes to fruition--or just run threaded inserts like I do)

This is what I have been railing on about. This is the mentality that stops companies from sticking to a system that works. The dynafit patter works, so does their brake system. They do not need to reinvent the wheel and looking at the Dynafit catalog 70% of their line up has brakes. So to say that Euros do not think about bakes is not really true either. Dynafit is still the best selling tech brand around and they seem to get that brakes are important but have lots of plastic.

The I will just sell and get the new stuff mentality is wrong. I know guys that have been rocking the same dynafits for 10+ years. With proper maintenance you can get a solid 10 years out of PLUM's. Why buy new ones when the ones they have now are perfect except for the fact they have no brakes. Longevity is what make people love solly drivers, look/rossi p#'s and dynafits.

I could go on forever about how things could/should/might be. As soon as the PLUM does not have the same hole pattern as Dynafits it looses half its appeal.

Dynamike ill just keep this thread in mind and if I get my little pet project off the ground I will defiantly post some pics up.

[auvgeek]

Question: why do you care so much about brakes? I can't imagine spending the money on an extra pair of guides just to tinker with to get a brake on them. B&D leash = $30.

[SupreChicken]

Volant Machetes will fuck you up when helicoptering toward your face.

Or in my case, praxis mtn jibs.

Either way, that's why I care about brakes.

Dalt, Marshal? Other smart people I haven't spoken with before? Will the BD leashes protect my face? Or should I just sell my (as of yet unmounted) Plums and hold out for next years, since I happen to prefer brakes?

[bern43]

It looks like the B&D leash lets the ski get a little further from you if you eject because of the coils. That seems like it should help some in avoiding a ski to the head.

[univurshul]

Question: why do you care so much about brakes? I can't imagine spending the money on an extra pair of guides just to tinker with to get a brake on them. B&D leash = $30.

brakes are faster to use. in an age of "lapping", brakes are right up there along beer w/dinner.

I'm willing to bet Plake picks up a set with brakes.

People have been skiing their dynafit binders for eons, and that's partly why they still suck. Voice your opinion about the sport, demand better (or build it yourself) or your gear will continue to lack progression...in this predominately junk-show market.

One thing I notice is that the boots are rapidly evolving, and this is likely pushing Plum to recognize a market beyond the classic rando customer. I have a Titan ultralight with no plans to use the alpine toe or a pair of dukes I'm selling. total freeride feel. stable. really kickass...and expensive setup. Everything is expensive today. Every 5 days, I drop a hundred bucks at the grocery store, fifty at the gasser. thank sweet baby jesus I don't spend money on DH bikes. Those are some broke ass homies...$800 for stems, bars, ....wtf?

[thin cover]

Those BD leashes are supposed break away for serious wrecks, they come with zip ties designed to break. That being said I have ejected and those leashes are long and very elastic and I have never had an issue with them hitting me ever. You can also take the ski off pull the skin and put the ski back on with out taking the leash off due to it elasticity. I am perfectly happy with the leashes, and I am 6"4" 250lbs.

[SupreChicken]

Is it these?

http://www.backcountry.com/black-dia...wire-ski-leash

[SunshineTom]

^^^ Negative.

it's these http://www.bndskigear.com/skileash.html