Two killed in collision.

[axebiker]

Axe I don't know how it is where you are but I was a pro for seven years in CO and if we identified a problem, we put a presence in the area and stopped the problem. Especially during Christmas week and spring break. Yeah there are 10-50s going off everywhere, of course you prioritize those but there's almost always an extra patroller to cycle through the problem areas and make some contacts.

The way we did it was contact, warn, educate. Tell them where they can go to go fast. Mark their ticket, if they get a second contact, they're done for the day. Multi day and season tickets are registered with dispatch and the next step is they're done for two weeks, then the season.

Can you catch everyone? No, but if the word gets out you mean business it goes along way toward addressing the problem.

Do I think patrol bears some of the responsibility for this accident? Not directly but it sounds like a culture of apathy toward this stuff up there and I bet that's gonna change.

I don't disagree with anything you said.

In regards to my area, we usually have about 5 patrollers on (volunteer - small area), and usually no more than 2 on the hill most of the time - the others are in the hilltop shack, aid room, and one on break. I try to spend time in problem areas as much as I can ("presence"), but is small areas with heavy racer/snowboarder mix, they all are. Adults are almost worse than kids. At least the boarders stay in the park most of the time.

With that said, traffic control has never been a big priority, although I think more attention should be given to it, especially in light of this event, and countless others like it.

[Ski to Be]

I don't think that video is a great example for the debate on this thread. There doesn't appear to be any blind spot and the racer kid looks to be in perfect control. He jumped a rope onto a run that was either closed or had a gated entrance that very likely had nobody near his landing zone. He has likely skied that run a hundred times and knew exactly where to look. I am not condoning this but I skied like that when I was a kid and never came close to hitting anyone. The accident involved someone skiing beyond their control level at a much higher speed into a blind roller.

[SeatownSlackey]

Incorrect, Jethro. Although you can make an argument for contributary negligence, you freely chose to ski a groomer zone with limited sight lines, admittedly knowing that inexperienced people are likely to blindly pop out of the trees in front you. You are aware of this yet unwilling to alter your own behavior to protect others because your personal jollies are more important than safety. Not a good start. Moreover, being unable to stop in time to avoid said noob is, by the very definition of skier responsibility rule #1, not skiing "in control" as you feel you are doing. So, actually, you are the negligent party and a proximate cause of such a collision.

sorry, just reread this and it still sounds pompous as fuck. never have liked peeps who have to try extra hard just to get their peacock on. That and the logic part of your argument is way off.

Seatown is da man, he rips the groomers and slaloms kiddies on planet Narcissus. I lived on planet Lawyer for five years so I know how tort law works. Now I live on planet I'm getting tired of explaining things to guys who think fast skiing groomers gives them any sort of cred on TGR.

In addition to the weekly kiddo slalom, i do enjoy the irony of you being the one to bring up ego and self infatuation. But hey, thanks for your tireless work to edjumacate us TGR Neanderthals who are desperately seeking chatbored cred.

[DasBlunt]

I don't disagree with anything you said.

In regards to my area, we usually have about 5 patrollers on (volunteer - small area), and usually no more than 2 on the hill most of the time - the others are in the hilltop shack, aid room, and one on break. I try to spend time in problem areas as much as I can ("presence"), but is small areas with heavy racer/snowboarder mix, they all are. Adults are almost worse than kids. At least the boarders stay in the park most of the time.

With that said, traffic control has never been a big priority, although I think more attention should be given to it, especially in light of this event, and countless others like it.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Bean&Boo'sDad]

Axe I don't know how it is where you are but I was a pro for seven years in CO and if we identified a problem, we put a presence in the area and stopped the problem. .

I've lived in Colo for 10 years as an adult and worked at Copper after college. I probably average 35-40 days a year on the hill between WP, Copper, Steamboat, Snowmass/Aspen/Highlands and the Vail Resorts. I'm not suggesting you didn't handle things the best you could during your day as a pro, but there has not been one single day in those 11+ years riding Colo mountains that I haven't seen AT LEAST one instance of an idiot turning himself into a guided missile. Breck and Keystone are worse than any other area I frequent, but the others have their bad spots, too.

In short, all of these resorts spend way too much money on base area development and not nearly enough money on on-mountain safety - particularly in the area of ski patrol....The patrollers I 've spoken to say they're WAY too busy hauling bodies off the hill on sleds to worry about skiers and boarders skiing out-of-control.

It's a HUGE problem. That we only have one tragic accident and another "slope rage" incident as evidence of it this year is pure dumb luck.

As a "for instance" the runs converging at the base of the Beav have LOTS of patrollers and yellow-tuniced dudes cautioning incoming riders to slow it down. I've seen 'em pull tickets, etc, there. However, the rolling, wide-open blues and greens at the top of chair 8 - which should be a safe haven for beginner and intermediate skiers - are often thronged with knuckle dragging idiots flying through the well-spaced trees and hitting any feature on the edge they can find, only to fly blind out into an open run and haul arse down to the chair.

Both of my daughters have been clipped by idiots over there. Thankfully, they were "near misses" that only caused them to tumble over.

The same can be said for RedTail and Rose Bowl runs, both of which , like the aforementioned, offer wide blue groomers to which intermediate skiers understandably flock. And I've never seen a patroller mid-run on either of those cautioning riders to check their speed.

[DasBlunt]

I've lived in Colo for 10 years as an adult and worked at Copper after college. I probably average 35-40 days a year on the hill between WP, Copper, Steamboat, Snowmass/Aspen/Highlands and the Vail Resorts. I'm not suggesting you didn't handle things the best you could during your day as a pro, but there has not been one single day in those 11+ years riding Colo mountains that I haven't seen AT LEAST one instance of an idiot turning himself into a guided missile. Breck and Keystone are worse than any other area I frequent, but the others have their bad spots, too.

In short, all of these resorts spend way too much money on base area development and not nearly enough money on on-mountain safety - particularly in the area of ski patrol....The patrollers I 've spoken to say they're WAY too busy hauling bodies off the hill on sleds to worry about skiers and boarders skiing out-of-control.

It's a HUGE problem. That we only have one tragic accident and another "slope rage" incident as evidence of it this year is pure dumb luck.

As a "for instance" the runs converging at the base of the Beav have LOTS of patrollers and yellow-tuniced dudes cautioning incoming riders to slow it down. I've seen 'em pull tickets, etc, there. However, the rolling, wide-open blues and greens at the top of chair 8 - which should be a safe haven for beginner and intermediate skiers - are often thronged with knuckle dragging idiots flying through the well-spaced trees and hitting any feature on the edge they can find, only to fly blind out into an open run and haul arse down to the chair.

Both of my daughters have been clipped by idiots over there. Thankfully, they were "near misses" that only caused them to tumble over.

The same can be said for RedTail and Rose Bowl runs, both of which , like the aforementioned, offer wide blue groomers to which intermediate skiers understandably flock. And I've never seen a patroller mid-run on either of those cautioning riders to check their speed.

I doubt management cares with the liability releases they force on the public.

Patrol needs more support.

[karpiel]

I don't think that video is a great example for the debate on this thread. There doesn't appear to be any blind spot and the racer kid looks to be in perfect control. He jumped a rope onto a run that was either closed or had a gated entrance that very likely had nobody near his landing zone. He has likely skied that run a hundred times and knew exactly where to look. I am not condoning this but I skied like that when I was a kid and never came close to hitting anyone. The accident involved someone skiing beyond their control level at a much higher speed into a blind roller.

No, he didn't.

[cmsummit]

Tragic. If there's one thing I've learned from skiing with my 5 y.o., it's that blue runs are the sketchiest areas on the mountain. They're the most crowded with the most out of control skiers/riders. As a result, we tend to ski a lot trees.

[LukeS]

This just hit TTips and I just threw up a little bit more well worded response. Maybe it will clear up some wierd things I said earlier.

I guess since its hit here I will throw up my thoughts over here.

I am the TGR poster that gave the witness report over there...
The run is a black diamond on the map, Blue in reality. Like hoka said it is the local speed run. I make laps on it all the time. I've clocked myself using a GPS speedo going 45 down it. Its big open and screams GS TURNS. On the run there are 2 spots with just enough of a wave that when going fast and in a tuck they have just enough wave to block whats on the other side. Not a roller, just a wave enough to kill up-close visibity for a second or 2.

The boarder came on the run. Tucked and full out. No turns at all just straight. Considering that same day I had hit 38 on that run, I am guesing that the boarder was running about 50 MPH.

The mom and kid were right on one of those waves. From what most of the people are saying around here the kid was having binder troubles and came down to her mom.(on the other side of the wave) From there the mom was helping her kid with her skis. Thats when the impact happened.

About 40-50 feet above the people I was starting to wonder if the boarder could see the mom and kid. A couple seconds later the boarder finally saw them and started turning.... wayyy too late. Boom. Everybody was out on impact. The boarder ragdolled about 20 feet down the slope. I'm positive the kid or the mom never even knew it was coming. Instant lights out. Right away everybody started calling for patrol. At one point going up the lift, after another run, patrollers were calling for suction. After the impact I knew there were going to be some serious internal injuries.


In hindsight, My TGR post makes it sound like I don't think it was the boarders fault. It was totally the boarder's fault. Skiing way past his control and not yielding down the run... But Had the mom and girl slid 20 feet to the right this would never have happened. I know when I stop on this run that everybody hauls down it so I scoot as far as possible to the edge. A lot of times into the trees before I will completely stop.

Overall a bad case of everybody was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hopefully this helps a lot. It was a rough day at the hill. And I'm sure management is going to be a whole lot different after that day.

Peace
Telekid

[axebiker]

Thanks for proving my point.

What - that the ski patrol is to blame? Yeah... The only thing you've proven is that you're a complete moron.

[bendtheski]

wow, I was just talking about stuff like this with my family over christmas dinner. We were talking about this awesome groomer under the colorado super chair at breck. it has a sweet roller where you can probably go 40 feet - totally blind though. everytime i hit it I hold my breath hoping there's no one below (there shouldn't be but it still worries me).

bummed to read about stuff like this

I'm sure this post was made with the best intentions, but I can't get over the recklessness and cluelessness it demonstrates.

I've had it with clueless holiday gapers this week. If skiing were like this all the time, I'd move south and take up golf.

[DasBlunt]

What - that the ski patrol is to blame? Yeah... The only thing you've proven is that you're a complete moron.

name calling proves it further.

[MakersTeleMark]

Hey, can we close this thread? There are 2 folks dead. Dead.

I spent a good half hour with a 3 year old separated from him Mom and sis today over a roll in terrain they really couldn't and didn't want to ski; frozen and scared, with a million gapers ragein' down out of control, and I can tell you, this thread does not do any good and will not stop that insanity.

Care for your self, but care for your fellow sliders, whether they be gays on trays, tall tee jibber jabbers, or just that random person who hooks an edge.

Keep it civil folks. Easy Peezy.

Does the Christmas spirit die that quickly?

Enough.

[Woolly the Mammoth]

http://trib.com/news/updates/article...cc4c002e0.html

Investigators conclude probe of Hogadon deaths

Authorities say the 23-year-old snowboarder involved in a fatal accident at Hogadon Ski Area did not appear to be committing any crime at the time of the Christmas Eve incident.

Natrona County District Attorney Michael Blonigen determined "there was no indication of any chargeable activity by any party involved," according to a copy of the investigation report obtained Wednesday.

The 46-page report from the investigation into the incident that claimed two lives was completed late last week by investigators with the sheriff's office. The crash has stimulated debate about safety conditions at the city-owned ski area on Casper Mountain.

At about 2:20 p.m. on Dec. 24, Craig Shirley was snowboarding down a slope at the ski area when he collided with Kelli Johnson and her 5-year-old daughter, Elise, who were both skiing.

Kelli Johnson, 31, had stopped with her daughter about three-fourths of the way down the run to help Elise get a ski back on when Shirley collided with them, according to authorities.

Elise Johnson and Shirley both died.

Kelli Johnson was seriously injured and taken to Wyoming Medical Center in critical condition. She has since been transferred to a Denver hospital, authorities say.

According to several eyewitnesses who spoke to investigators, Shirley was traveling "at a high rate of speed." Several different witnesses put his speed anywhere between 40 and 60 mph.

He struck the stopped skiers at about the same time, and all three were knocked unconscious. Shirley came to rest approximately 178 feet from the site of impact, while Elise stopped 95 feet away and her mother 66 feet away, according to the report.

Kelli Johnson and Shirley were not wearing helmets. Elise was, but the helmet was thrown off at the time of the accident, according to the investigation.

More than 10 people at Hogadon that day submitted written statements to investigators describing what they observed of the accident.

One witness wrote that around noon that day, he observed Shirley "acting inebriated or under the influence walking in the parking lot" and went on to say he appeared "disoriented." The witness noted, however, that he could not tell if it was "a normal condition or induced."

A toxicology report shows Shirley had cannabinoids in his system. Coroner Connie Jacobson, speaking Wednesday, said the amount found in his system was "small." She added there was no way to determine when Shirley could have come in contact with the substance, which is found in marijuana.

The collision occurred on Dreadnaught, a black-diamond run at Hogadon open for the first time this season that day. Ski slopes are designated as black diamonds when they require high skill levels. On the day of the crash, 15 of the 24 slopes offered at Hogadon were open.

Shirley went to the ski area about 11 a.m. A man he went with told an investigator they were at the top of the slopes about 2 p.m. when Shirley decided to go down Dreadnaught. The man said he "tried to talk him out of it," according to the report.

"[He] told Shirley the run had begun to become icy that afternoon and he did not believe they should take it," the report states.

Friends say Shirley -- a 2006 graduate of Kelly Walsh High School -- was an accomplished snowboarder.

One witness who spoke to investigators said Shirley "was traveling in a straight line down the run and was not attempting to slow himself down at all." However, he did not appear to be "out of control," according to the report.

The witness added that he believed Shirley would not have been able to see Kelli and Elise Johnson "until he crested a small hill and would not have had time to try to avoid them."

One of seven ski patrollers who submitted written reports on the incident noted Shirley was "written up. ... several years back for boarding Dreadnaught too fast and not making turns."

A person given a written warning by a ski patroller can be ejected from the ski area if he does not change his behavior, according to Casper City Manager Tom Forslund. Ski officials can ban uncooperative patrons for a day, a year or permanently, he said.

In a media release put out by the Johnson family not long after the accident, Kelli Johnson was described as an "expert level skier, snowboarder and ski instructor." Her daughter was described as an "accomplished skier in her third year of independent skiing that day."

[sadfist]

This has got to be the saddest and worst thing I've read on this board. Be safe out there people.

[spook]

this is bullshit.

"Several different witnesses put his speed anywhere between 40 and 60 mph."

too bad he didn't get to stick around and see how cool that was.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Like most of us, I don't know what actually happened or the conditions, but I just don't get all the outrage about a guy possibly going 40 mph. I'd guess at least half the people here pretty routinely go faster than that--again, I'm not saying anyone does so in crowded or blind conditions, but 40 isn't necessarily that fast. That's about average speed for a GS, which are pretty standard groomer turns.

My personal take, based on the police report and eyewitness account, is that the guy was probably stupidly straightlining (at least where the roll was), but there's some speculation in that.

Either way, just a horrible to thing to happen, regardless of who was at fault (and I can't see how anyone can blame a five year old for falling in the wrong place--sometimes even when they don't fall you can't instantaneously get kids out of bad spots--despite what DBS and the other morons say).

[spook]

40-60 on a groomer with other people around and blind spots is fucking stupid at best. no two ways about it.

[Dexter Rutecki]

For the speed itself I'd say it depends--airing it out over blind rolls, yes, dumb, but like I said, 40 isn't that fast by any stretch. If it was crowded and he was doing 60, then it's completely different. But AFAIK only one person in this thread can really tell us what was happening.

I also have to question the people talking about always jumping with spotters--most terrain park jumps have blind landings, and I have almost never seen people using spotters (nor used them myself back when I did occasionally hit park jumps). Of course you can usually be pretty sure no one is on the landing, but not 100% and not all the time.

Just terrible--like others have said, let's be safe and do what we can to keep this type of thing from happening.

[toast2266]

I don't think the issue is the numerical speed he was going, the issue is that he was going at a speed where he couldn't avoid an obstacle on the run. If you're going at a speed where you can't avoid whatever happens to be on the other side of a roll over, you're doing it wrong.

[legallyillegal]

if i slap you in the face, is it your fault that you didn't see it coming and couldn't avoid it?

[doughboyshredder]

40-60 on a groomer with other people around and blind spots is fucking stupid at best. no two ways about it.

Very.
After reading that report I really feel like this fucker basically murdered a child. Fucking weak.

[bendtheski]

if i slap you in the face, is it your fault that you didn't see it coming and couldn't avoid it?

This comment it completly irrelevant to this situation.
You understand that the 5yo girl wasn't hurled at the snowboarder at 40-60mph, don't you?

[Jethro]

I don't think the issue is the numerical speed he was going, the issue is that he was going at a speed where he couldn't avoid an obstacle on the run. If you're going at a speed where you can't avoid whatever happens to be on the other side of a roll over, you're doing it wrong.

This sums it up nicely. I wonder if the investigation would have had another conclusion if only the little girl had died and the snowboarder had survived. All the facts leading up to the accident would have been identical. I think since both died, the investigators conveniently decided to not place blame.

[spook]

the investigators conveniently decided to not place blame.

yeah, i'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but i don't get how this isn't reckless endangerment or SOMETHING. the boarder deserves no mercy just because he's dead as far as i'm concerned. this is all on him.