New RECCO website...

[Hacksaw]

There is a new website for RECCO. There is lots of interesting information on their new website.

Check it out at http://www.RECCO.com

[maloneSTAR]

there's a cool video on there under "avalanche awareness" - good info and also some pretty gnarly shots of avalanches

[DasBlunt]

Recco is worthless if only good for recovery. Waste of resources and energy IMO.

[Scotsman50]

Recco is worthless if only good for recovery. Waste of resources and energy IMO.

Can't agree more.
Recco= Recovers Extremely Cold Corpses Occasionally.
Some of their marketing could actually increase deaths as some people don't understand what they are getting.
I have snowmobilers working for me who think they have clothes with " them built in avalanche beacons".

[CookieMonster]

It might be helpful to consider the facts before you decide whether or not RECCO is worthless.

RECCO is a great technology that is neither designed, nor marketed, to replace a transceiver. I do not believe that any of RECCO's marketing materials are misleading in any fashion whatsoever.

Anyone who believes that RECCO constitutes a "built in avalanche beacon" is experiencing a serious failure of basic common sense. RECCO is not designed to improve common sense; RECCO is designed to reduce burial times for individuals who aren't wearing avalanche transceivers, and it works brilliantly.

( I am not affiliated with RECCO. )

[Sinecure]

It might be helpful to consider the facts before you decide whether or not RECCO is worthless.

RECCO is a great technology that is neither designed, nor marketed, to replace a transceiver. I do not believe that any of RECCO's marketing materials are misleading in any fashion whatsoever.

Anyone who believes that RECCO constitutes a "built in avalanche beacon" is experiencing a serious failure of basic common sense. RECCO is not designed to improve common sense; RECCO is designed to reduce burial times for individuals who aren't wearing avalanche transceivers, and it works brilliantly.

( I am not affiliated with RECCO. )

Facts? There's never been a live recovery in the US with a RECCO - that's a fact.

None of their marketing materials are misleading? Probably true. But how about the morons that work in half the big-box ski retailers? Those douche-gabs mislead people every fucking day about it.

Case in point: Conversation on chairlift this weekend.
Future Popsicle: The snow is awesome over in Estelle.
Me: Patrol just closed it because of slides.
FP: I don't have to worry about that.
Me: Huh?
FP: I have a beacon.
Me: Are you skiing with friends who have them too?
FP: Nah, don't need to. Patrol has the thingy to find me - see, there's the sign in their window - I have the beacon in my pants.
Me: You might want to go into the patrol room and ask them about that thing.

[CookieMonster]

There have been live recoveries in Europe, and I think this speaks to the value of RECCO as more than theoretical. ( Paging Hacksaw for statistics. )

That people lack common sense doesn't reduce the value of RECCO any more than it reduces the value of transceivers, shovels, or probes. The lack of a single live recovery in the US is not a black mark against RECCO.

( Your post doesn't consider other data, such as the number of RECCO searches performed, and whether or not there were other factors in those accidents. If you don't have that data, and can't find it, you might try asking Hacksaw. )

Would you also suggest that avalanche fatalities among those wearing transceivers constitute a black mark against transceiver technology?

I'll say it again: anyone who believes that RECCO constitutes a "built in avalanche beacon" is experiencing a serious failure of basic common sense. You'd have had the same conversation with the Future Popsicle if he had been wearing a transceiver. Let's assume a RECCO search is conducted by ski patrol... is that somehow worse than a probe line?

For christ's fucking sake, plug in your toaster.

[Scotsman50]

From Recco's website.

"Reflectors are also not a substitute for an avalanche rescue beacon. However, when someone needs more help than their friends can provide, RECCO® reflectors do provide another chance."

Another chance at what.?--- there's marketing bullshit right there.^^^^^

" serious failure of common sense"'.... yea right... I think you are overestimating the IQ of the general population level there Cookie 'ol buddy.

[CookieMonster]

I think you are overestimating the IQ of the general population level there Cookie 'ol buddy.

Well ... I usually do the exact opposite ( but in a fair-minded way )!

From Recco's website.

"Reflectors are also not a substitute for an avalanche rescue beacon. However, when someone needs more help than their friends can provide, RECCO® reflectors do provide another chance."

Another chance at what.?--- there's marketing bullshit right there.^^^^^

I definitely don't think that RECCO technology is safe or effective for backcountry search and rescue in the event of an avalanche if a live recovery is desired ... but RECCO technology is unquestionably a better search tool than a probe line. At a resort, having a reflector could definitely improve the chances of a live recovery from zero to much better than zero.

[Scotsman50]

Well ... I usually do the exact opposite ( but in a fair-minded way )!



I definitely don't think that RECCO technology is safe or effective for backcountry search and rescue in the event of an avalanche if a live recovery is desired ... but RECCO technology is unquestionably a better search tool than a probe line. At a resort, having a reflector could definitely improve the chances of a live recovery from zero to much better than zero.

Then If they have any corporate morality they should put the following in big fucking letters right in the middle of their website and on all clothing that carry them.
NOT SUITABLE FOR BACKCOUNTRY USE

[CookieMonster]

Then If they have any corporate morality they should put the following in big fucking letters right in the middle of their website and on all clothing that carry them.
NOT SUITABLE FOR BACKCOUNTRY USE

Yes, it should be made absolutely crystal clear.

[DasBlunt]

I just believe it is a waste of resources. All these mountains could be spending money on beacon basins, more patrolers.

Recco could be putting money into R$D into better beacons, larger search area receivers for beacons, special locating machines for people without beacons in resorts.

Its marketing and fancy machines....not protecting people, only a false sense of security.

I would love to see the stats as I am basing my opinion on the USA data of no living recovery.

[TheDon]

Didn't seem to help that poor girl at the bird a few years ago. When they got it over to the slide and they picked up one million signals from everyone there trying to help find her. I think the thing is shit until I hear a reasonable reason why it isn't.

[DasBlunt]

I say, with What the Don posted above, FUCK Recco. Is that harsh? Not sure, but if she had that on, and 200 other people had it on, and they can't find someone, WASTE OF MONEY AND LIVES.

[Scotsman50]

^^^^^^ DasBlunt; Already posted by Sinecure above....are you only reading your own posts???? Pay attention!

[CookieMonster]

WASTE OF MONEY AND LIVES.

Wait a second.

RECCO reflectors don't trigger avalanches, so it is impossible to connect a RECCO reflector to any fatality. It's definitely not the reflector's fault that a girl died, and her chance of rescue was higher with RECCO than without.

Since RECCO is a better option than a probe line, I guess I'm still not sure why the technology inspires such anger.

Plenty of people have died despite wearing beacons, and I don't see this type of anger directed at beacon manufacturers. If everyone at a ski area wore a beacon, you would have the same search problem.

[DasBlunt]

Wait a second.

RECCO reflectors don't trigger avalanches, so it is impossible to connect a RECCO reflector to any fatality. It's definitely not the reflector's fault that a girl died, and her chance of rescue was higher with RECCO than without.

Since RECCO is a better option than a probe line, I guess I'm still not sure why the technology inspires such anger.

Plenty of people have died despite wearing beacons, and I don't see this type of anger directed at beacon manufacturers. If everyone at a ski area wore a beacon, you would have the same search problem.

But people could all switch to receive, they CANNOT with RECCO.


I am being harsh to see the extremes of the argument. You are being logical in your defense of a reasonable idea of resort safety. But, it does not seem to have any statistical benefit over wearing a beacon, other than padding the pocketbooks of recco and manufactures in China. Someone else I am sure has a better offense against Recco than mine.

[DasBlunt]

Dale came on and posted this, RECCO has not had many, if any, live rescues even in Europe, or they are keeping them pretty secret.

"I am Dale Atkins with RECCO AB (we're a Swedish company), and over the past few winters there have been some writings about RECCO: some good, some bad, and a lot somewhere in between. I would like to give some accurate information about our system, but first I would like to introduce myself, give a brief answer to Mtsprings’ questions, and respond to eight common myths about RECCO.

I am the training and education manager or North America. Prior to that I worked as an avalanche forecaster and researcher for the Colorado Avalanche Information Center for 19 years. Along the way I have had 30+ years of mountain rescue experience and 20 years of professional ski patrolling. As a rescuer I have dug out enough bodies (starting in '74) to fill a bus. As a researcher I have formally investigated hundreds and hundreds of avalanche accidents; co-authored the 4th volume of The Snowy Torrents. Currently, I am writing the 5th volume (to be published next fall) of The Snow Torrents -- US avalanche accidents from 1987 to (maybe) 2007. Besides RECCO and other things, I also serve as the vice-president to the Avalanche Rescue Commission of the International Commission for Alpine Rescue. Professionally, I have worked with and around avalanches since the early 1980s.

To Mtspring:
The RECCO System is not a substitute for a transceiver (see myth 1 below); however, our system provides pretty decent security at most of the avi-prone resorts in North America. At most resorts RECCO is now part of the first response, this was not true even a few years ago. Reflectors (should always have two) integrated into clothing, boots, helmets are better, but adhesive-backed reflectors -- sold in pairs -- are available from mountaingear.com. Keep in mind that no device -- transceiver, RECCO, airbag, AvaLung, etc -- guarantees survival. Even with transceivers mortality is about 50%, and this year it has been much worse. RECCO reflectors provide a basic and inexpensive rescue system, but knowledge most important. Take the time for you and your kids -- like some of the writers posted -- to get educated about avalanches, always buddy up when riding, and also visit and talk with patrollers about conditions too. Just like in the backcountry, this winter has served as a tragic reminder that some days are better than others to visit steep terrain.

Here are some common myths about RECCO.

1. RECCO replaces the transceiver.

FACT: RECCO supplements the transceiver. We want and encourage people to get and learn how to use transceivers. The beacon is the best tool for companion rescue. RECCO is a system when someone needs more help than their friends can provide.

2.I already have a transceiver, I don’t need RECCO.

FACT: Even experienced skiers/riders forget to carry or turn on their transceiver. We are human and thus fallible. RECCO provides a basic, simple and inexpensive rescue system for all: from newbies ignorant of avalanche dangers (therefore will never have a transceiver) to the super-experienced and savvy who makes a mistake.

3. RECCO adversely affects avalanche rescue beacons. 

FACT: No. The two systems work on very different frequencies and cause no interferences. In fact the Barryvox VS 2000 Pro transceiver (sold in Europe) has a RECCO reflector inside the beacon. RECCO’s new detector also has a beacon receiver, so one rescuer can do both jobs.

4. I can just put a RECCO reflector in my pocket.

FACT: Please don’t. The adhesive-backed reflectors are designed to work best when attached to hard-shell boots or helmets. With soft-shell snowboard boots the reflector can also be placed in between a boot shell and liner. Simply dropping a reflector into a pocket can dramatically reduce system performance. Reflectors integrated (on the inside or outside) on jackets, pants, boots, helmets, body protection are specially designed and placed for this application. We also recommend that people wear two reflectors.

5. Gives a false sense of security.

FACT: Some people will use safety equipment -- including beacons -- as an excuse to engage in riskier actions. How many of us -- myself included -- have skied a steep slope with pretty suspect instability just because we wore a transceiver and were with good friends who carried big shovels? Education is our best defense and RECCO works hard to motivate people to get educated about avalanches.

6. Organized rescue is too slow.

FACT: Organized rescue is getting faster because:
 A. cell phones B. helicopters C. proximity D. new search technology

Organized rescue has gotten much faster in recent years; however, rescue teams are still stymied by having to use probe poles to find about half of all buried victims. A probe pole is like using a needle to find another needle in a haystack. Today’s search times (in the US) by organized rescue teams are only slightly faster than avalanche search times (time spent searching) in the 1980s. When the results of the few avalanche rescue dogs cases are removed, the times are nearly identical. Transceivers and RECCO can search areas in minutes that can take hundreds of rescuers many hours to probe. Rescue dogs are much slower, but still many times faster than a probe pole.

The best example of a fast rescue occurred last April in Colorado when a cornice collapsed beneath a snowshoer. She was buried with a hand out but could not be seen by her companion. A 911 call sent a helicopter with rescuers who found her, evacuated her to hospital, and returned to search for her companion before he was even able to reach the avalanche debris.

7. RECCO only finds dead bodies.

FACT: RECCO finds people, dead and alive. Every year we find a few people alive (in Europe), which makes them and their families pretty happy. For years RECCO was used in the secondary (or later) levels of a search. When used one, two, three days (or later), it’s no surprise RECCO found dead bodies, but an interesting trend was noticed. Once the detector arrived on scene the searches were taking only minutes.

8. Too few places equipped with detectors.

FACT: Worldwide more than 600 rescue bases are equipped with detectors. In the US and Canada we have equipped about 120 resorts (click here for a list). Many more organizations, especially SAR teams, in North America are slated for detectors.

I hope I have provided some answers and information. If anyone has questions, please contact me by PM or via recco.com. Thank you for taking the time to read this message."

Think Snow,
Dale Atkins
RECCO AB"

[CookieMonster]

But people could all switch to receive, they CANNOT with RECCO.

In reality, I think this would be difficult to implement in a short time frame.

I am being harsh to see the extremes of the argument. You are being logical in your defense of a reasonable idea of resort safety. But, it does not seem to have any statistical benefit over wearing a beacon, other than padding the pocketbooks of recco and manufactures in China. Someone else I am sure has a better offense against Recco than mine.

I have absolutely no problem with harshness or arguing ( You should come on over to Turns-All-Year sometime. Things get pretty harsh and argumentative and fun until the mods have had enough. ).

Anyway, I'm simply curious about why RECCO has inspired the harshness in the first place. It's not as if they set out to do something bad.

[DasBlunt]

In reality, I think this would be difficult to implement in a short time frame.

Anyway, I'm simply curious about why RECCO has inspired the harshness in the first place. It's not as if they set out to do something bad.

Generally with a VERY large voice yelling at you (which I possess), people will switch to receive quickly.


Your last comment; its simple. A false sense of security and lack of training.

Some person buys the latest boots with Recco and he fails to read a/the book, look for the signs, and drops into his local bowl in the spring and gets caught in a inbounds avy, missing sign after sign. Or, same example, and the person goes into the sidecountry and thinks they are safe. Or, same person thinks they are good in the Backcountry.

Here is a quote from the RECCO Wikipedia page:

"The system was originally developed for use at ski resorts where it is already recognized to be extremely valuable for ski-resort-based rescue teams and ski patrols. However, its value is not confined only to ski resorts. Even in the backcountry RECCO has demonstrated its capability to find buried victims quickly."

I bet 20 bux Dale wrote that. No offense to Dale, but doesn't anyone see a problem here?

[Scotsman50]

Cookie.... The reason I feel so harshly about Recco is that they do a very bad job of educating their buyers about the limitations of the system or policing the advertising done by the clothing manufacturers and retail outlets that sell them.
I am basing my opinion on real life experiences of being in stores and hearing store clerks telling people that the clothing has built in avalanche detection systems... not once ... many times and different stores. Maybe factually correct but no further information on their limitations.

I've sat on chair lifts at my local hill Crystal and probably twice a year heard somebody taking about how they have avalanche stuff in their clothes and they can go into the BC with it.

I've got people I work with who snowmobile in the BC and erroneously believed they had the equivalent of a beacon in their clothing until I set them right.

Ask DALE the Recco rep why they do not mark the clothing that uses their system with a tag that says NOT FOR BACKCOUNTRY USE.... simple and cost effective..... why do they not do it???

This being the USA, I just hope that somebody sues them and when they get a $20 million dollar law suit against them... then maybe they will do the right thing and make sure their vendors and licencees correctly mark their product.

Also, ask Dale if they are still making separate recco tags that people can put on skis, iphones and dogs etc . Be tragic to spend 15 mins searching and digging in avy debris to discover a ski with a recco tag on it and not a human.
Are they still selling those..... ask him.

RECCO= Reluctant to Explain Correctly in Case profits Obliterate.

[Sinecure]

From some user's review of some pants with Recco on backcountry.com site: "good pockets and piece of mind of the Recco reflector. "

From some site called nationaloutdoors.net in their review of an REI jacket: "The REI Shuksan Jacket is backcountry shell that has it all. The jacket was designed with the backcountry traveler in mind. It features the super breathable eVent fabric along with a RECCO Avalanche Rescue System reflector permanently sealed to the inside right sleeve."

From a site called gearbuyer.com reviewing some marker pants:

"Skiers who prefer backcountry conditions will appreciate the RECCO technology which uses a reflector and detector to pinpoint your location for faster avalanche rescue."


See how morons might get the wrong idea?

[Scotsman50]

Excellent stuff Sinecure ^^^^^ exactly the problem.
What say you now Cookie my buddy?

[khakis]

Also, ask Dale if they are still making separate recco tags that people can put on skis, iphones and dogs etc . Be tragic to spend 15 mins searching and digging in avy debris to discover a ski with a recco tag on it and not a human.
Are they still selling those..... ask him.

I think they stopped selling them (at least they're not on backcountry.com anymore), though it would be pretty cool to offer such a thing with a (drastically) different frequency reflectivity to put on gear, like the dog transmitter SOS used to make

[PNWbrit]

...and Sincure owns this particular RECCO is stoopid thread.