FWD Car Fishtailing on Icy Roads

[Canada Guy]

So I'm having a strange problem with my car, and I figure enough mags travel icy highways week after week that someone must have experienced the same problem.

I have a 2008 Civic Sedan that is causing me some white knuckle driving on the icy highways. Every time I hit any ice on the highways the back end of my car seems to want to break away to the left or right and fishtail really badly. Its almost as if the car wants to break into a 180 degree spin every time I hit some ice. It will even happen when driving in a straight line with my foot completely off of the accelerator, the car just seems to want to go into a flat spin. I should also add that I almost never use cruise control in the winter.

It also seems to be independent of the speed I am traveling as it will happen as slow as 50 km/h. I have brand new winter tires on the car and I have tried putting sandbags over the wheel wells in the trunk but that hasn't helped either.

I'm at a loss to figure out why the car is doing this since I didn't have any issues last winter with the car.

I do have a service appointment with Honda in a few days, but I was hoping to see if anyone else has had a similar problem before I take the car in.

Any suggestions??

[XXX-er]

we always used to make the jokes about them folks who come from the east with the yellow learner plates eh?

what kinda snow tires ?

[Stikki]

Are all four of the winter tires identical (brand, size, wear, pressure, etc)?

[summit]

Immediate thought is some combination of:

One of your breaks is rubbing
Alignment is effectively way off
Tires are not the same type, or uneven wear or uneven inflation

[F.D.V.]

Might also be the cast or camber of the tire/wheel.

[Tye 1on]

Frozen cable on emergency brake is making one rear wheel drag a bit.



in reality i'm an extremely bad mechanic.

[karpiel]

More skinny pedal.

[JoeStrummer]

The universe that is a vehicle is a funny and delicate thing. I fucked my wife in the back seat of our Saab in the parking lot before a Social D / Superchunk show at Red Rocks. After that the radio never worked again.

[Caucasian Asian]

This might sound like a silly question, but was it the wind?

It's been kinda windy around Cowtown lately, I almost got passed by my utility trailer last week at Morley Flats.

[Canada Guy]

The universe that is a vehicle is a funny and delicate thing. I fucked my wife in the back seat of our Saab in the parking lot before a Social D / Superchunk show at Red Rocks. After that the radio never worked again.

Awesome! This is why I love TGR.

In response to the questions in everyone's replies:

All four of the tires are the same brand, are all only a month or so old and have the same psi, in fact the tire pressure was one of the first things I checked. The tires are all Falken Eurowinters and they seem to work awesome on the snowy streets in the city, but as soon as I get over 50 km/h on the highway I feel like I'm sliding all over the place. I just had a full alignment done as well so there shouldn't be an issue there.

I'm pretty confident it has nothing to do with my driving ability since I've been driving the same highway for 15 years (since I was 14) and I've never had a traction issue like this. But you never know, maybe I drive like a granny

Edit: In response to Caucasian Asian, it seems to be independant of the wind as well. Usually the wind isn't too bad on my car since it's pretty small. I will usually feel a little push but nothing like this. Even the passengers in my car on Sunday commented that something seemed wrong with the car on the way back from SSV.

[crank54]

Immediate thought is some combination of:

One of your breaks is rubbing
Alignment is effectively way off
Tires are not the same type, or uneven wear or uneven inflation

What he said. (with the exception of the spelling of brakes.)

Easy things first. I assume all FOUR tires are the new snow tires. Check inflation pressure. Jack up all four corners one at a time and spin the wheels by hand to see if any brake calipers / drums are dragging. On ice, any slight application of the brakes on any one wheel can cause the car to start to rotate. That's how stability control systems work.

Finally (because this costs $$) get a proper four wheel alignment done. If your rear toe is out on one side, this would also cause the car to want to rotate a bit, though I suspect you would also notice this when driving on dry pavement with your hands off the wheel.

Good luck.

[Tye 1on]

lemme guess, no garage car sits outside?

[Canada Guy]

lemme guess, no garage car sits outside?

Nope, car sits in a garage and only gets driven on weekends since I walk to work.

From the comments it's seeming like it is a case of a brake pad dragging. Although I did just get the brakes serviced at the stealership so there is a good chance they fucked something up. It wouldn't be the first time.

[wooley12]

^^^^^^ X2

[Kim Jong-un]

I'm pretty confident it has nothing to do with my driving ability since I've been driving the same highway for 15 years (since I was 14) and I've never had a traction issue like this. But you never know, maybe I drive like a granny

Is this the same road this happens on, or on any road? If the same road, I'll throw this out there. Some roads have a significant crown on them and if its been repaved in the summer they may have added more crown and you're prolly not the only one with trouble then.

[Hugh Conway]

Just you in the car? I've had sometimes similar problems with underweight Civics, some weight in the back helps a bunch.

[Canada Guy]

^^^ It's pretty much all roads at highway speeds. My comment about the same highway was to point out that I'm not new to winter driving here in Alberta.

We get a lot of folks who move out here and think it's totally cool to drive the icy highways with cruise on at 130+. A good example was Sunday when a white Mitsubishi blew by right at the city limits, then once I got to the Bragg Creek turnoff (15km or so further) his car was upside down in the ditch with cruise still on and his wheels still spinning under full throttle.

[Canada Guy]

Just you in the car? I've had sometimes similar problems with underweight Civics, some weight in the back helps a bunch.

Just me in the car, me in the car with sandbags in the trunk, and myself and two other passengers, seems to be no difference.

[summit]

What he said. (with the exception of the spelling of brakes.)

Easy things first. I assume all FOUR tires are the new snow tires. Check inflation pressure. Jack up all four corners one at a time and spin the wheels by hand to see if any brake calipers / drums are dragging. On ice, any slight application of the brakes on any one wheel can cause the car to start to rotate. That's how stability control systems work.

Finally (because this costs $$) get a proper four wheel alignment done. If your rear toe is out on one side, this would also cause the car to want to rotate a bit, though I suspect you would also notice this when driving on dry pavement with your hands off the wheel.

Good luck.

Right on. This is the path to fix your problem OP.

It could be alignment or suspension... I've seen a shop do a full alignment then have a tire wear out unevenly in 10K because of a worn suspension issue. So if your car has a lot of miles on it or drives very rough roads, this could be a problem if the alignment check is OK, particularly if your car has developed a vibration or shake.

BUUUUT the most likely culprit here is brakes. (PS I speak NOT from experience)

[lynchdogger]

The universe that is a vehicle is a funny and delicate thing. I fucked my wife in the back seat of our Saab in the parking lot before a Social D / Superchunk show at Red Rocks. After that the radio never worked again.

Hahaha!!! Thanks for sharing . . . but way too much information!

[Yukonrider]

Well is it the brakes? Jack up the rear of the car, and spin both wheels, is one tighter?

[L7]

For what it's worth I just put Eurowinters on as well and am having no such troubles. In fact it's a new car and has had the slightest pull to the right since new. With the new tires on that seems to have gone away.

I agree a dragging brake seems a likely culprit.

One other thought. Just check to make sure one tire didn't get mounted backwards. They have a rotational direction and I believe are slightly asymmetrical. Seems minor but still..... They are marked 'outside' on each tire and if one isn't showing that it may be the fix.

[Wetdog]

It definitely sounds like alignment or brake drag issue. One other thing to check are your shocks. I had a similar problem with my car jumping and swerving from the back and it turned out to be worn shocks.

[ACHTUNG]

Yes, check your suspension and rear sway bar. Did you buy the car used? If so, the previous owner may have installed a stiff rear sway bar to give it more oversteer.

[Mannix]

Does it always want to spin one way? IE, the tail always goes right or left - or is it variable?

Dragging brakes are plausible, but if it is dragging enough to make this sort of thing happen, you'd likely smell hot brakes, the car would not roll freely, etc.

I'd personally suspect alignment; not enough rear toe-in (most FWD cars get stability from a bit of toe in at the rear - toe in means the tires are closer together in the front than rear, a "pizza," if you will) will cause looseness.

If it is always sliding THAT way, maybe that wheel is toed out?

I'm betting alignment. Parking brake/sticky caliper is easy enough to check, does the car roll away on a gentle slope (with you in it, naturally). That's not foolproof, but it goes a long way to telling you if jacking up the car is necessary.

Your list indicated that an alignment was recently done; that's where I'd start. Stuff does not get tightened, alignment heads are not mounted on wheels correctly, a bent wheel can throw an alignment off (even though most racks compensate for bent wheels), etc etc etc.


.02c!


Iain