Dynafit TLT 5 Boot

[Jonathan S.]

Tried on the TLT5 just now at Pine Needle in Durango. (Very cool shop, although if you live anywhere near Durango, then obviously you already knew that.) I was even more impressed than I expected to be -- I mean, sure, just add a plastic tongue and velcro strap to my DyNA and you have the core of the TLT5, but lots of other little details are very well thought out (e.g., reinforced rubber in certain places, wider lugs in certain other places, elimination of the pointless extra buckle clip, addition of more positions on the forefoot buckle, retention of fabric closure under the removable plastic tongue, lacing matrix on inner boot for hut use, etc.). I was also surprised at the stiffness of the TLT5 Mountain -- okay, so no carbon steaze like on the TLT Performance, but plenty stiff for backcountry touring use.

[gillesleskieur]

Just go my TLT5 performance today... very surprised at how stiffer the feel than what i tought / expected...
will have to cook the liner still and then go for a test run in probably a week of time.
cant wait!

[verbier61]

Gilles, first of all chapeau for all the great lines you've skied the past two winters! Second, have you tried also the mountain version? Any comments on the two?

[Shorty_J]

Has anyone weighed the liner on it's own?

I get cold feet and I'm leary of the thinner liner for that reason. But I'm wondering if it might be a reasonable idea to buy a size up and put an intuition liner in there for added warmth (and possibly stiffness). Obviously I would go in to the fitting session with said liner to test the idea.

Of course, this would make a very expensive boot even more so.

[alive]

I'll head to the shop and wheigh them...

Actually Just checked the dealer site..... 300 gms for the TLT5 Mountain TF-X liner.

One thing to try out for cold toes is heat forming the liners with a thin peice of foam in the exact shape of a toe heating pack. Normal days, ski with little foam piece between the liner and insole, cold days, open up a toe warmer pack in place of the little foam pad...

[Shorty_J]

I'll head to the shop and wheigh them...

Actually Just checked the dealer site..... 300 gms for the TLT5 Mountain TF-X liner.

One thing to try out for cold toes is heat forming the liners with a thin peice of foam in the exact shape of a toe heating pack. Normal days, ski with little foam piece between the liner and insole, cold days, open up a toe warmer pack in place of the little foam pad...

Is this a site that anyone can see? It's weird because this boot isn't even listed on Dynafit's North America site.

If that spec is correct, putting in Intuitions would actually reduce the weight even further (they're about 200g/pair), and would no doubt be much warmer. This is very intriguing and a financially dangerous way.

[single]

If that spec is correct, putting in Intuitions would actually reduce the weight even further (they're about 200g/pair), and would no doubt be much warmer. This is very intriguing and a financially dangerous way.

I think the biggest concern, IMO, would be losing that piece of canvas that allows more range of motion. You might make the walk mode really awkward.

But I have also been thinking about an intuition, just to take up a little more volume. I guess I can try one on inside it when I get the boot, but I probably wont receive them until turkey day.

[Federico]

TF Liner is approx.160gr , TF-X liner approx. 320.
I would never buy a size more than what required, you will gain weight and lose in quality of fitting.
I would never suggest to change a top quality liner specifically developed and fitted with precision on a specific shell with a standard liner made to fit "every kind" of shell. There are big fitting risks involved especially on a TLT5 which has a very special and unique internal last and very unique features.
To be clear again, TLT5 TF or TF-X liner are NOT COLDER than any other liner in the market! If we take as example TF liner I bet anyone to feel a temperature difference from the TLT5 TF or a ZZero TF for 2mm less thickness of closed cell eva foam...
On normal ski mountaineering use the reason why some people have cold feet are:
1) Fitting, a too precise fit might decrease the blood circulation.. for example using a super thin pair of socks might be much warmer than usinig thick wool socks... it the thick ones make the fitting too tight. Also the shell buckles always have to be closed softly and not too tight during climbing.
2) Way of skiing... if you climb in a very irregular way, meaning stopping often waiting for the others, taking pictures and so on... with your feet always in the snow... you will always freeze. So it's important to climb up regularly and if you stop always remaing on the skis and try to be out of the snow...
Ciao

Has anyone weighed the liner on it's own?

I get cold feet and I'm leary of the thinner liner for that reason. But I'm wondering if it might be a reasonable idea to buy a size up and put an intuition liner in there for added warmth (and possibly stiffness). Obviously I would go in to the fitting session with said liner to test the idea.

Of course, this would make a very expensive boot even more so.

[Federico]

Happy you like them! you'll enjoy even more on the snow...
If you heat the liners by yourself on a "home oven" pay a lot of attention when putting the liners back in the shell. It's a very tricky operation when the liners are very soft... if you twist the liners inside you will get a very bad fitting.
This is why I always recoment to use air blowing heat risers. Just in case 100-110° C for approx 12-15 minutes are fine. Much less if you use a traditional oven, approx 5-8 minutes will be enough at 110°C pre heated.

Just go my TLT5 performance today... very surprised at how stiffer the feel than what i tought / expected...
will have to cook the liner still and then go for a test run in probably a week of time.
cant wait!

[wilcox510]

Federico (or anyone else), how would you stay the stiffness and ski-ability of the TLT performance is compared to the ZZeros with carbon (the green machines as Lou likes to call them.....) Thanks

[Shorty_J]

TF Liner is approx.160gr , TF-X liner approx. 320.
I would never buy a size more than what required, you will gain weight and lose in quality of fitting.
I would never suggest to change a top quality liner specifically developed and fitted with precision on a specific shell with a standard liner made to fit "every kind" of shell. There are big fitting risks involved especially on a TLT5 which has a very special and unique internal last and very unique features.
To be clear again, TLT5 TF or TF-X liner are NOT COLDER than any other liner in the market! If we take as example TF liner I bet anyone to feel a temperature difference from the TLT5 TF or a ZZero TF for 2mm less thickness of closed cell eva foam...
On normal ski mountaineering use the reason why some people have cold feet are:
1) Fitting, a too precise fit might decrease the blood circulation.. for example using a super thin pair of socks might be much warmer than usinig thick wool socks... it the thick ones make the fitting too tight. Also the shell buckles always have to be closed softly and not too tight during climbing.
2) Way of skiing... if you climb in a very irregular way, meaning stopping often waiting for the others, taking pictures and so on... with your feet always in the snow... you will always freeze. So it's important to climb up regularly and if you stop always remaing on the skis and try to be out of the snow...
Ciao

I agree with some of what you are saying about too tight a fit, etc. But it makes no sense at all to suggest that a thicker liner will not be warmer than a thinner one, ALL OTHER POINTS YOU MENTIONED being equal. And that says nothing of the fact that the materials you use and the materials used by Intution are quite different. For instance your liner for the Titan weighs almost twice as much as the same sized Intuition liner. If they are the same size, all of the difference has to mean less material and therefore more space in the intuition, and more air space = better insution (even for the same thickness). The same argument should hold true with your TLT5 liner compared to Intuition as well, regardless of thickness.

I love my Titans but my feet get very cold in them due to the precision fit... if I buy the TLT5 it will be a long-distance boot that I'm not interested in a precision fit for, thus the suggestion for a size larger boot and a thicker liner has potential as a valid solution, I think.

And finally, without very much effort at all you will find that there a huge number of threads about people who were having various kinds of trouble with their ski boots, only to add Intuitions and have those problems solved. I'm not picking on Dynafit... Intution just makes a really great product that can help with many boots despite the fact that they were not specifically designed for that boot.

[gillesleskieur]

i would nt change the liner since the Dynafit has this nice bellow in the back that allow you to flex it backwards when hicking.. REALLY nice..

Verbier61
Thx a lot for the kind words!
i tried the Mountain version as well but theres such a large difference in stiffness that i did nt considered them for more than 2 seconds, even do the bill is different..

[EvelKnievel]

Is this a site that anyone can see? It's weird because this boot isn't even listed on Dynafit's North America site.

Dynafit actually just updated their site. The specs don't include wieghts or anything though.

[gillesleskieur]

here the weights of my production 27.5 tlt5 performance (yes totally loving the fact to have them..;-)

Shell only :929gr
shell with Dh Booster: 999gr
Dh Booster: 75gr
Liner:165gr
Total without Dh Booster: 1092gr
Total with DH Booster: 1168gr

Dh Booster 's actually a tongue for your boots it makes a huge difference in stiffness with or without it. A huge difference in Walk mode as well to leave it on:-( or off :-)!

wearing both boots in my living room dose'nt make for a good test, but its absolutely comparable to the green machines in stiffness.. (performance version)

Frederico:
Absolutely no way i do it at home in my oven. will do hat at my local sportshop as usual.. but thanks!

[Federico]

First of all no comparison with TLT5 and Titan fit, I agree titan could be less warmer than TLT5 but it's mainly due to the kind of fitting not about the liner.

Titan uses a traditional constructed kind of liner (strobel) with a thermoformable foam, with plastic reinforced tongue, rubber soles, lace loops, much more aestetical details (wich are not for perfomance but people likes to buy nice things:-) and this is the reason why it weights more than Intuition. We tried to have a more durable and best out of the box fitting product.
Our fully thermo liners are called TF and have same or even lighter weight than Intuition.
Please, I'm not and I never told Intuition are bad products, not at all!. Just I said to pay attention as liners are always developed accordingly to the inner lasts of the boot shell and using a different liner can cause inside moving, blisters and so on.

I didn't said that thicker liners are not warmer then thinner... I said that it's not possible to feel 2mm difference. 2mm is the difference from our TF (1cm) and TLT5 TF liner (8mm), I don't know the thickness of intuition but it's probably not much more than 8-10mm.

Also the flex zone of the standard TLT5 liners works really fine, using a liner without will reduce quite a lot the range of movement.

I personally skied TLT5 with TF liners in Georgia on a 5.000mt peak with -25/-30° C and strong wind and if moving I never had cold feet...

Anyway you're free to try what you prefer, this is just my personal suggestion... from a skier that climb more than 100.000mt per season... ;-)

Ciao

I agree with some of what you are saying about too tight a fit, etc. But it makes no sense at all to suggest that a thicker liner will not be warmer than a thinner one, ALL OTHER POINTS YOU MENTIONED being equal. And that says nothing of the fact that the materials you use and the materials used by Intution are quite different. For instance your liner for the Titan weighs almost twice as much as the same sized Intuition liner. If they are the same size, all of the difference has to mean less material and therefore more space in the intuition, and more air space = better insution (even for the same thickness). The same argument should hold true with your TLT5 liner compared to Intuition as well, regardless of thickness.

I love my Titans but my feet get very cold in them due to the precision fit... if I buy the TLT5 it will be a long-distance boot that I'm not interested in a precision fit for, thus the suggestion for a size larger boot and a thicker liner has potential as a valid solution, I think.

And finally, without very much effort at all you will find that there a huge number of threads about people who were having various kinds of trouble with their ski boots, only to add Intuitions and have those problems solved. I'm not picking on Dynafit... Intution just makes a really great product that can help with many boots despite the fact that they were not specifically designed for that boot.

[Shorty_J]

...the Dynafit has this nice bellow in the back that allow you to flex it backwards when hicking...

As does this product...

http://www.intuitionliners.com/lux_touring_page.htm

[gillesleskieur]

nice liner, but the TLT5 are expensive enough for me ;-) and the stock liner is fine IMO

[single]

nice liner, but the TLT5 are expensive enough for me ;-) and the stock liner is fine IMO

Gilles, just curious, what skis are you going to be using with your boots?

[gillesleskieur]

mainly K2 hardside (4 steep) and K2 wayback (4 work with clients, cham zermatt type of stuff..) but i ve got the whole range up with dynafits so will try coomback and darksides as weel for fun at least..

[Shorty_J]

Please, I'm not and I never told Intuition are bad products, not at all!. Just I said to pay attention as liners are always developed accordingly to the inner lasts of the boot shell and using a different liner can cause inside moving, blisters and so on.

I didn't said that thicker liners are not warmer then thinner... I said that it's not possible to feel 2mm difference. 2mm is the difference from our TF (1cm) and TLT5 TF liner (8mm), I don't know the thickness of intuition but it's probably not much more than 8-10mm.

Also the flex zone of the standard TLT5 liners works really fine, using a liner without will reduce quite a lot the range of movement.

I personally skied TLT5 with TF liners in Georgia on a 5.000mt peak with -25/-30° C and strong wind and if moving I never had cold feet...

Anyway you're free to try what you prefer, this is just my personal suggestion... from a skier that climb more than 100.000mt per season... ;-)

Ciao

If any liner is truly heat moldable and the shell is close to a good fit, you should not have any blisters.

I completely disagree that you can't feel 2mm. In the specs listed above, that's a 20% difference... that should be noticable. The Intuition liner I linked to is 12mm of foam around the body of the foot, 9mm in the sole... and as I was trying to imply in my previous post, the Intuition liner also has material removed to allow easier forward and backward flex of the liner in the boot.

I do respect your opinion, but you've made it very clear from your achievements in vertical that you are likely in far better shape than I am, and clearly don't have circulation issues that cause your feet to get cold very easily. I think the product sounds pretty great... just trying to figure out if there's a way I can make it work for me (because I wouldn't feel good about buyin it in it's current form alone).

[H-wood]

Woah Nelly.

Seems like some of you guys are getting way ahead of yourselves here and trying to second guess a lot of stuff about this boot--I highly recommend buying the proper size and working with a bootfitter to address little issues with shell work. Going up in size and trying to fill the voids is never a good strategy.

I wrote that review for Powder--but I should note I was in the Dyna Race, which is the same lower, same last. I fabbed my own removable tongue a la the TLT--helped, but wasn't necessary. Threw in the (stiff leather) liners from my dobermanns, which wasn't necessary either, but was nice.

Skied and skinned almost 100k vertical feet in them, skied a bunch of different skis (mostly 181 coombas), and all kinds of snow. I think they're miles better than anything on the market, for a number of reasons, but most importantly because it's the only AT boot on the market with a performance last.

But one thing I can say for sure that they aren't is cold. These boots, especially with the stock liner, were hot as hell because the boot is basically a vapor barrier--my only complaints were that it needed some kind of vent to cool my feet, and that it can be really hard to get on.

[verbier61]

mainly K2 hardside (4 steep) and K2 wayback (4 work with clients, cham zermatt type of stuff..) but i ve got the whole range up with dynafits so will try coomback and darksides as weel for fun at least..

gilles might be not so famous in the US (yet...), but is a rockstar for steep stuff in yurp. IMVHO he and francesco civra skied the most interesting lines in the past two winters. It's indeed very, very good to have him here in TGR.

[Jonathan S.]

lacing matrix on inner boot for hut use

Clarification: the lacing matrix is only on TLT5 Mountain TF-X.
By contrast, the TF liner on the TLT5 Performance TF, DyNA, and Euro-only (?) Mountain TF has a simple velcro closure, w/o the lacing matrix of the TF-X.

BTW, just remembered that Pine Needle is such a cool shop that a digital scale is available for anyone who wants to compare gear weights in a really detailed manner.

[Christopher3000]

I tried on the TLT5 Mountain this weekend and I'm extremely psyched to try the performance. I'd compare the flex of the mountain (non-carbon) to a spirit 3, but as H-Wood suggests, I'm most excited about these boots because they have a real performance last. I have skinny feet and ankles and I'm accustomed to Dobermanns, and these boots felt like they'd be super-responsive thanks to their fit, which as I've said before I think makes a much bigger difference in skiability than "stiffness."

Never mind the walk mode, which is shocking...

For reference, I ski a 29 Titan and a 29 Dobermann, and all I could try on was a 28.5, which felt too short, much like the 28.5 Titan. Interestingly, I just threw on my Titans and Dobermanns for the first time since the spring and my Titans feel noticeably lower volume than the Dobermanns, even though the Titans have a BSL that is 6 mm longer...

H-Wood, are you suggesting that the TLT5 will be overkill? Do you like the DyNA so much these boots don't strike you as interesting?

[Federico]

Shorty... if I tell you you can hardly feel the 2mm difference you should believe me... just in case... I work in the AT boot industry since quite a while and probably 75-80% of the Euro made touring boots sold in north america in the last 8years (at least the more successfull) are coming out of developement team I was part ;-).
The "expanded eva foam" I mentioned is the material used to give the thermo form abilities to the liners, those specific materials or similar, doesn't matter who is the producer, are closed cell. This means they are not breathable at all and are warm mainly because they are able to keep all the heet generated by your feet between liners and feet.
They are also expanded so it means they contain air inside and this is able to give the insulation abilities.
In conclusion if you start to ski up and the boot fit is good enough to let your blood circulation going correctly you will warm up, keep the warmth close to your feet thanks the the "non breathability" and you will hardly feel cold in normal cold conditions. If you stop and let the feet getting cold then you will hardly warm up again.
By the way the pro tour liner you indicate have 9mm of foam, the TLT5 8mm... so from the pure insulation point of view really hard to feel the difference, fitting is a different issue so you should buy and use what is better and more comfortable for your feet.

Again as also other skiers suggested I strongly reccomend not to buy one size more. At least in Europe this is a very bad "use" from many old style dealers which are used to sell boots in one size more and with thick socks ... they convince the customers that it's more comfortable, warmer and so one... and the reality is that is very bad for fittig, heel retention, blisters, precision in skiing and so on...
The best is to buy the right size, form the liners, try the boots and if you feel them cold you have to try to understand which part of the shell is pressing and not allowing a perfect blood circulation. When you find it mould the shells accordingly to reach the best possible fit.
It's different if you intend to use the boots for ski expedition in extreeme climate condition, might be the Denali area in alaska or somewhere in Himalaya... in those cases you need to have 1size bigger and play tricks with socks combinations and "nylon bags" to keep the heat on your feed and keep dry the liners.

If any liner is truly heat moldable and the shell is close to a good fit, you should not have any blisters.

I completely disagree that you can't feel 2mm. In the specs listed above, that's a 20% difference... that should be noticable. The Intuition liner I linked to is 12mm of foam around the body of the foot, 9mm in the sole... and as I was trying to imply in my previous post, the Intuition liner also has material removed to allow easier forward and backward flex of the liner in the boot.

I do respect your opinion, but you've made it very clear from your achievements in vertical that you are likely in far better shape than I am, and clearly don't have circulation issues that cause your feet to get cold very easily. I think the product sounds pretty great... just trying to figure out if there's a way I can make it work for me (because I wouldn't feel good about buyin it in it's current form alone).