4FRNT Renegade ~ Hand built in SLC.

[otto parts]

My guess is that the wood wants to straighten out over time, and the wood sidewall exposure exacerbates the effect.
Will compare never skied 11/12s to my used pair.

[Mustonen]

Ya this is probably why they're switching to the cap. Maybe this whole white room thing isn't that cool after all.

You bite your tongue!

Seriously...fickle group we are.

I have well over 100 days on my 10/11s - I don't take any special care of them and I ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet (inside, albeit; and I don't seriously ride all that hard). They have held up great, and even still look great. No noticeable change to rocker, flex, etc. I love them a little more every time I ski them.

I'll compare and contrast mine to TurkeyUPs 11/12's; and am interested to hear more about this rocker/camber issue. The rocker profile is pretty specifically one of the features of the ski, they even have a marketing buzzword for it - Reflect Tech. If that degrades over time without the ski being abused I would think that would be a warranty issue.

[pow314]

Ya I realize that I shouldn't make such statements yet but if this Is a common issue then it's a pretty good reason not to buy the ski. I've talked to a shop owner who has told me the camber profiles of almost every order he receives vary from ski to ski. If there really is variation like this and people are reporting completely loosing camber than I think there might be something wrong with production. If I'm wrong ignore me, but it's just something to think about.

[gaijin]

Ya I realize that I shouldn't make such statements yet but if this Is a common issue then it's a pretty good reason not to buy the ski. I've talked to a shop owner who has told me the camber profiles of almost every order he receives vary from ski to ski. If there really is variation like this and people are reporting completely loosing camber than I think there might be something wrong with production. If I'm wrong ignore me, but it's just something to think about.

Well, a few people have reported a change in camber over time. I have #845, '13 Owls. They're still perfect after 15 days on them. I'll keep an eye on them. But having nearly (?) a thousand pairs of these skis out in the wild, everyone well aware of this thread, I wouldn't let these few reports get you down. We haven't even seen any pics yet to support any reported camber changes. Not that I don't believe it, but let's take a deep breath.

Ottoparts PM'd me requesting I measure the splay from tip-to-tip when the skis are base-to-base. His 10/11s measured the same as my 12/13s.

I also highly doubt the lack of sidewalls would allow enough moisture to penetrate deep enough to actually warp a ski. We're not water skiing. You'd literally have to set a ski in a puddle of water for a lengthy time for the water to penetrate deep enough to warp a seasoned hardwood core that was milled and set to prevent warping.

Not saying it's not possible, but it's definitely not common with this production line.

Anyone remember the first generation of Rossi's S6 a few years ago? Thousands of skis in the wild with different camber profiles. And that's from the claimed Oldest Ski Factory in the World.

[pow314]

Right on, your probably right. Just scrutinizing everything before I buy a pair.

[auvgeek]

I love them a little more every time I ski them.

+1, even though mine a losing rocker.

I don't doubt that we must be in the minority, and I will buy another pair even with this issue. These are my favorite skis by far.

I hope to post pictures tonight. The problem is anywhere you press the skis together will change the rocker profile. It's honestly hard to capture the subtleties with a picture -- if anyone has any suggestions, please post up soon. I'm thinking I'll band the brakes out of the way and then put a voile strap around boot center. But the problem with this method is that the subtle camber that may or may not have developed will be less evident. I'll also put two straps where I think the contact points have developed (but this will create camber). I hope that between these two methods, it should be fairly obvious how the rocker has changed.

[vanisle]

^^
can you get a picture base to sidecut to show how the rocker matches (or doesn't ) sidecut or "reflex"

[auvgeek]

^^Sure, but it never matched for me (rocker was always too shallow).

[whyturn]

My 196 have done that. But they still kill it so does it matter? Very unique ski

[gramboh]

You bite your tongue!

Seriously...fickle group we are.

I have well over 100 days on my 10/11s - I don't take any special care of them and I ride 'em hard and put 'em away wet (inside, albeit; and I don't seriously ride all that hard). They have held up great, and even still look great. No noticeable change to rocker, flex, etc. I love them a little more every time I ski them.

I'll compare and contrast mine to TurkeyUPs 11/12's; and am interested to hear more about this rocker/camber issue. The rocker profile is pretty specifically one of the features of the ski, they even have a marketing buzzword for it - Reflect Tech. If that degrades over time without the ski being abused I would think that would be a warranty issue.

Same here, 10/11's with about 100 days on them and the profile looks pretty close to what it did the day I got them (although I haven't done a close inspection, they ski fine).

Also I thought the ski is staying white room for 2013/14, it's not a cap construction just the topsheet is stepped down to reduce chipping?

[pow314]

Just saw a pair of my buddies 186's and the definitely have positive camber. Think ill buy a pair of hojis instead.

[DudeLebowSKI]

I have 10/11's and 12/13's with no issues. I ski them everyday regardless of conditions. Those poor 122mm underfoot fully rockered skis get the shit beat out of them with 9 out of 10 days being icy, bulletproof, moguled up crud. If you knew my home mountain you'd know I wasn't exaggerating Sounds like maybe there were a few bad pairs of skis pressed last year, no big deal. Every manufactured product in the world has the potential to experience defects. I'm sure 4FRNT would be happy to have a look.

[allTandA]

my og's (10/11) must have about 80+ days on them, get hammered regularly, left out in bed of truck in snowstorm occasionally( 'cause that is how i roll) and look eggsactly the same as day 1 as far as rocker profile goes. bases are fucked tho....whose got some fresh 196's for me!!

[auvgeek]

Took pictures with my phone and then the app crashed while trying to load them.

Will try to get something by the end of the week, but this week's a bit busy. I'm super glad those of use with issues seem to be in the minority.

[ulty_guy]

I just pee'd my pants at work and no one even know why. Dumpage on the way too!

Edit- early one, #38

[gramboh]

I just pee'd my pants at work and no one even know why. Dumpage on the way too!

Edit- early one, #38

WTF are those new? Where did you find em? Looks like the original 10/11 graphic too which is my fave (11/12 is slightly different). I looked at mine closely last night, no weird camber issues going on at all, still the same profile as I remember from 2 years ago when I opened the box.

[j0z77]

My 11/12 196's have positive camber, too.
When they came, they looked like flat camber with early rise.
I assumed that they would become slightly rockered after several days skiing.
But, the more time passes, the more camber they have.
Still I like them but I wanted full rockered skis.

[bestskieratsnowbird]

Also I thought the ski is staying white room for 2013/14, it's not a cap construction just the topsheet is stepped down to reduce chipping?

that's correct.

[ulty_guy]

Yup, new, dug them outta some online shop in Germany when I was hopelessly digging around on the net one day for a pair in Yurp. They're actually #36.

Lining them up w/ my touring rig of 178 Trusts, at -86 they have the same amount of tip and just extra tail. They're really not that big or stiff, gonna go -86.

[auvgeek]

My 11/12 196's have positive camber, too.
When they came, they looked like flat camber with early rise.
I assumed that they would become slightly rockered after several days skiing.
But, the more time passes, the more camber they have.

Hey, thanks for posting those pictures man! Eyeballing it, it looks like the contact points in the tip and tail are about where mine have developed contact points.

[Lindahl]

Wonder if they should have used Flipcore™ technology, where the natural state of the core is reverse camber.

[DudeLebowSKI]

Wonder if they should have used Flipcore™ technology, where the natural state of the core is reverse camber.

You read my mind. I have been thinking about the whole flipcore idea since before it existed. Doesn't it just make more sense for reverse cambered skis? Maybe the ski is stronger when the full grain of the wood runs the length of the ski base as opposed to broken grain on the bottom.

[ASmileyFace]

Just checked out my 10/11's that have 40ish days on them. I didn't notice any positive camber but I will check them out after I get back from the hill today.

[gaijin]

Thanks, j0z77. I've been waiting to see those pics. Have you contacted 4FRNT? Do you care to? I'm curious to hear their reply. I don't fear their customer service, but I'm curious from an engineering POV.

Being as both skis are developing the same camber, I doubt this has anything to do with water or a lack of sidewalls. Not properly seasoned wood when pressed seems the most logical to me. Or pressed without enough heat. (?) Wood is tricky stuff.

[ulty_guy]

Ok, got mine out on their maden voyage.
Me= 180cm, 77 kgs
Mount= 186s, 87, dukes, mercury's, detuned tips and tails a bit, they were razor sharp
Condition= horrid wind crust with some softer pitches


Wind has ripped pretty strong thru Cham area yielding 'interesting condition' for a first go. Toula looked tge best bet. normally i'd reach for rc112s in these conditions.

For a more traditional mounter, I didn't find there was excessive tail, and give the tail is useful and not soft, it works. On dust on crust with a light touch they worked surprisingly well and easy to make quick turns. In heavier wind crust you had to be careful not to lean too far forward.

Oddly, a few times where a really tried to fly thru difficult crusty snow, I felt the tip taper trying to take me the other direction. It was never anything I couldn't recover from but I have to say it scared the shit outta me a couple of times. I've never been on a ski with anything like a reverse side it though and I think that's where the pilot discombobulation occurred.

In anything soft they were insanely fun and quick but still able to be stable at high speed, nice.

On the combat rain crust at the bottom I was crying for my mommy for a more traditional ski. For 'every condition in a day' alps, this won't be a quiver of one.

Only a first blush, more to come