Snowbird expansion proposal

[monkeywrenchMoose]

No longer true in Utardia. They changed all of that last year to the chagrin of fisher persons. Property lines now meet in the middle of the stream. The justification was to include land as property as water levels drop over the summer. Stream dries up, property line is still intact, no interpretations needed.

Thank you.

In Europe, yes, here not so much.

Thank you.

[StroupSkier]

skiski, to answer your question, the valley can probably only grow for another 20 to 30 years as long as the projections are accurate. Once the population reaches the level currently projected it will probably lose the ability to support a larger population base. So planning for that population base would be a more accurate statement I suppose.

Since it sounds like you have mixed feelings about an access point in AF, could you say what you feel are some of the pros and cons of having an access point there? Would it support a larger bed base or alleviate some traffic up LCC?

[ill-advised strategy]

You are right. Snowbird, indeed all of Utah skiing, is nothing but the product of Dick's love. When I go there, I am enveloped by a sense of harmony with the world, and, of course, an overwhelming sense of Dick's love.

And to think, He built the whole thing out of nothing. Just a poor farm boy from Texas who loved to ski so much, that He drove to Utah and sculpted the beautiful Wasatch mountains out of empty desert, with His bare hands. And of course, even with the beautiful mountains that He greated out of His pure and infinite love of the mountains, Utah still would not be a ski mecca if it were not for that beautiful temple to the mountains known as the Cliff Lodge. I mean, mountains are pretty and all, but the Cliff Lodge is stunningly beautiful.

And yes, all of His expansions, both past and future, are done of the desire to create a lasting legacy to the environment (which He created) and to skiing. Obviously Dick has no need for money. That's what's awesome about rich people. They are only driven to make money to a certain extent. Once a man has $100 million or so, he never seeks more. Instead, he starts to give back, to the people, to the environment. All Dick wants is to see people ski. He doesn't care if he makes money. That's why Snowbird lift tickets have been free ever since Dick decided he has enough money. Heck, he doesn't even care if people ski Snowbird. He will buy you climbing skins, or a lift ticket to another resort if Snowbird does not suit your fancy.

It's a common misconception that Dick wants to expand Snowbird so He can make more money. That could not be farther from the truth. He expands Snowbird so He can protect the mountains He created. Hikers and backcountry skiers wear down the mountains with their uphill travel. But, if the mountains are all with Snowbird, Dick can make sure that they never feel the sting of a hiking boot, or the burn of a skin track. Once within Snowbird, mountains feel only the loving touch of grading equipment (to make sure that their slopes are appropriate for all persons, regardless of skill level). And, of course, in the summer, mountains within Snowbird are constantly massaged by the healing hands of the ATV tire. Hopefully, one day, the entire Wasatch will be under Dick's loving care.

Yes, Dick is great. If only the whole world was as selfless as Dick.

Just in case you haven't had enough Dick lately, and believe me I can tell how much you love Dick....

[sliced]

Plus, another thing that keeps skier density down at the tri-canyons resorts is the fact that more and more people are touring.

I'd bet money you could never prove this. Only a small percentage of skiers tour and even smaller on a regular basis compared to UT resort skiers. The resorts get what, 3-4 million skier visit days in Utah?

To compare it to CO, it gets less than CO because Colorado does better advertising and has a better non-mormon and pro-drinking image that their ski density is higher. As Utah improves it liquor laws and does better advertising, UT will steal CO tourists away. I mean, UT will never have stuff that CO has....like a cool mountain town like Steamboat or Crested Butte ...but consistent snow in UT is a great selling point for someone spending a lot of money for a short period of time.

However, with no more expansions but much more skiers in the valley: the backcountry is going to be really, really crowded. Especially as backcountry equipment continues to improve. So SOC or whoever, go ahead and protect it by having no more expansions and you'll be responsible for ruining your backcountry experience at the same time. Block the worst expansion ideas if necessary, but no more growth is not the answer when everything is growing around you.

[skifishbum]

However, with no more expansions but much more skiers in the valley: the backcountry is going to be really, really crowded. Especially as backcountry equipment continues to improve. So SOC or whoever, go ahead and protect it by having no more expansions and you'll be responsible for ruining your backcountry experience at the same time. Block the worst expansion ideas if necessary, but no more growth is not the answer when everything is growing around you.

dude that shit makes no sense
perhaps if you tell me what the phrase "backcountry experience" means to you

[Johnny Deep]

Endless grow and expansion = lie

[BigDaddy]

You guys can say all you want about DB, but you gotta admit, this was pure genius last year:

[Johnny Deep]

The Tram? Pffftt...that went in during 1971.

The lawn furnature you see hanging neatly spaced on overhead cables date back to the same epic era.

[skiski]

skiski, to answer your question, the valley can probably only grow for another 20 to 30 years as long as the projections are accurate. Once the population reaches the level currently projected it will probably lose the ability to support a larger population base. So planning for that population base would be a more accurate statement I suppose.

Since it sounds like you have mixed feelings about an access point in AF, could you say what you feel are some of the pros and cons of having an access point there? Would it support a larger bed base or alleviate some traffic up LCC?

So, you think the population will suddenly just stop growing in 20 or 30 years? It will just spread out into the west desert. It won't stop growing.

Anyway, I'd hate to see AF fucked up with snowbird winter traffic, etc., but the pro would just be that it would take some traffic off LCC. Maybe not much, but on the really crowded days, some people would find it desirable to around. It would also probably bring in more skiers from Utah county, either because people down there would find it more convenient or because more people who like to ski would find northern Utah county a decent place to live. Either way, the more I think about it, the more I dislike it because it would junk up AF canyon. But, the LCC road is a big bottleneck, so alleviating that would be a plus.

As I said before, I think the best solution is to make snowbasin and powmow more destination-skier oriented. Then you can direct more skiers up there. The road up LCC is the bigger problem with increased skier numbers, not the density in bounds at snowbird.

[BigDaddy]

The Tram? Pffftt...that went in during 1971.

The lawn furnature you see hanging neatly spaced on overhead cables date back to the same epic era.

lol... $30,000/week in additional revenue from a 10' x 14' shed.

Talk about a nice mining operation!

[monkeywrenchMoose]

lol... $30,000/week in additional revenue from a 10' x 14' shed.

Talk about a nice mining operation!

What was that shack? Shots? as in alkyhol?

[BigDaddy]

We weren't getting waffles or flu vaccines there...

[Johnny Deep]

I must have visited too much, I almost don't remember it being there.

I most certainly would have remembered the waffles.

[yabyum]

Waffles (and bacon) are important, MY shots are in the mini flask. Why would you give Dick your hard earned $$$?

[sliced]

dude that shit makes no sense
perhaps if you tell me what the phrase "backcountry experience" means to you

The lack of understanding is why you guys may be fucked. Sorry.

[skiballs]

dude that shit makes no sense
perhaps if you tell me what the phrase "backcountry experience" means to you

I was in a Dick's sporting goods in Maryland the other day.
No skis, no boots, yet they had a big ass rack of skins.
SFB you better run for the hills, cause the gapers are a comin.

[icelanticskier]

Why try to make a mountain that is not "family friendly" or even average EC skier friendly into a destination resort? The terrain is too tough for that crowd.

most all of the good skiers are from the EC. too tough? funny.

just sayin

rog

[ill-advised strategy]

can you imagine how money it would be to have bought one of those $150,000 McMansions 10 years ago in alpine if all of a sudden there was reliable access to snowbird from AF canyon...

[hoarhey]

I was in a Dick's sporting goods in Maryland the other day.
No skis, no boots, yet they had a big ass rack of skins.
SFB you better run for the hills, cause the gapers are a comin.

Yeah, and I heard Ian Mcintosh was filming a Dick's sporting goods commercial in chicago just a couple weeks ago
More scrubbing bubbles...

[yabyum]

Yeti, Go buy a cheap one NOW! Short sell up the yazoo.

[yabyum]

Wazoo, yup

[TheMessenger]

The lack of understanding is why you guys may be fucked. Sorry.

Thats the truth for sure. Some people just don't get it.

Because of a fundamentalist type of approach, some people just cannot see how of any sort resort development might actually be GOOD for the 'backcountry experience' By moving skier traffic to current un-used and under-utilised areas(both by backcountry skiers and resorts) it would relieve pressure on other currently popular areas.

But all this stuff was studied years ago. Like the Alta-Bright tunnel. If the Alta-Bright tunnel, as a sort of pressure relief valve, was built five years ago (as it was supposed to) the traffic problem in the canyon today would be greatly reduced. But of course it was shot down by environmentalists, like SOC, who at the same time, offered no real practical solution of their own. Instead, their idea, which will never happen, is that everyone must be forced onto a 'mountain train' powered by a financial black hole that would, ironically, completely alter and destroy the LCC ecosystem.

The additional irony is that if the AltaBright and CottonPark plans were to have been implemented there wouldn't even be talk of a lift up Flagstaff now because there would be access to the canyons regardless of the avalanche mitigation (which is the whole rationale for a Flagstaff lift). Not to even mention that it would make car shuttling for ski tours SOOO much easier. DOH! If a lift up Flagstaff ever happens IT WILL BE THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS LIKE SAVE OUR CANYONS WHO ARE TO BLAME.

But it doesn't make sense to argue rationally with idealists and extremists. They are looking for a perfect world that is utterly different than the one in which we actually live.

[skifishbum]

The lack of understanding is why you guys may be fucked. Sorry.

I'm trying to understand what the phrase means to you I know what it means to me.
Ever been on a yurt trip? They are sweet backcountry experiences.
My wife fucked up and followed to close on a ski cut went for a ride lost a ski that was a backcountry experience.
I try to work on self rescue/beacon skills because loosing one of my partners is not a backcountry experience I desire.
Safety breaks on a peak with your buds before dropping into a few k of untracked goodness .....
I'd go on but like I said I know what it means to me
I did 12 years at a resort I got no problems skiing resorts or with others
Skiing there. Makes ya a better skier
I don't tell people I'm a back country skier
I am a ski bum
as long as I ski I win.
Gotta go DP tom.
Heli Free Wasatch
Ski heli terrain first
Save our canyons
Don't basshole the Chuitna
Read about it on my I am a ski bum blog tommarrow

[skiski]

The additional irony is that if the AltaBright and CottonPark plans were to have been implemented there wouldn't even be talk of a lift up Flagstaff now because there would be access to the canyons regardless of the avalanche mitigation (which is the whole rationale for a Flagstaff lift). Not to even mention that it would make car shuttling for ski tours SOOO much easier. DOH! If a lift up Flagstaff ever happens IT WILL BE THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS LIKE SAVE OUR CANYONS WHO ARE TO BLAME.

But it doesn't make sense to argue rationally with idealists and extremists. They are looking for a perfect world that is utterly different than the one in which we actually live.

There was supposed to be an alta-bright tunnel completed 5 years ago? I never heard anything about that. If I recall correctly, the "alta-bright" and "cottonpark" ideas were in some memo sent out by an NY investment banker who liked to ski here.

The tunnel has some appeal. I agree, it would make car shuttles easier. You are partially right on the avy control- it would make it so you could get to alta if there was avy danger in lower LCC, i.e. below snowbird. But it doesn't change anything regarding the need to control the south faces from snowbird to grizzly gulch (which is what the flagstaff lift would be intended to address). That lift would mainly help address avy danger above the town of alta. So, even if you had a tunnel, actually, especially if you had a tunnel (since the tunnel would come out right under some of the areas that would be controlled by a flagstaff lift), there would be the need to control above alta.

And to get the tunnel, you'd have to destroy silver fork. That is the deal breaker for me.

[wra]

The way to alleviate congestion in BCC and LCC is to provide mass transportation. Gettum outta their cars and on the buses, in other words.
The current token gestures offered by UTA are simply that, token gestures. The pile of money the came with the Olympics coulda gone a long ways to alleviate congestion. Instead it went to filling a few of the movers and shakers pockets.
If you build it they will come. Park and ride lots near the mouths of the canyons and a light rail extension to those lots should be a first order of business, not a fucking stupid tunnel or a lift up Flagstaff.
Don't blame shit on greenies, blame it on those making decisions that line their pockets.
With the expansion into Mineral Basin by large bass and boner, Mary Ellen changed from accessable to not so, I'd just let the tarheads tear it up with sno mos and tell basshole to shut the fuck up.
BTW, the proposed Flagstaff lift is to protect the town of Alta not for keeping the fucking road open.