2010 Wasatch Area Trail Conditions and other Crap Thread

[Dantheman]

we already have a bi directional multi use trail.

We have a bidirectional multi-use trail that ends at a completely arbitrary and nonsensical location. I would love to see the upper trail remain freeride-y, but if the choice came down to bidirectional multi-use or no trail at all I would much rather have the former.

[junto]

As for the applicability of RS 2477, I think that a lawsuit against the USFS is a possibility to seek a preliminary injunction against tearing out the trail (aka ruining the forest around the trail), but I don't think that it gets mountain bikers access to the trail, as case law seems to indicate that even if RS2477 was applicable, the USFS could still maange mountain bikes out of the trail.*

*note This is only based on preliminary research. May not be worth the effort, considering it doesnt get us access anyways. It would be more of a move just to get some press and cause some legal headaches, but could be used to try to preserve the trail for hiking.

I will look further into the case of RS 2477 applicability, but from what I can tell so far it would be quite the long shot. Proving that the current trail has not deviated from it's historic location, as well as DH not exactly being the historic use of the trail will be difficult to prove to say the least. Not to mention that so far with the millions of dollars the state has spent in litigation of only a handful of RS 2477 claims, the outcomes have not been so favorable.

Is anyone aware of any maps prior to 1976 that show the trail in the upper canyon?

I'll do my best to make it to the meeting tomorrow.

[powder4breakfast]

...as well as DH not exactly being the historic use of the trail will be difficult to prove to say the least.

Remember that they are closing the trail completely including foot traffic. Biking is almost secondary.

[steeze_pizza]

People travel from all over the world to ride Whistler and the PNW, and they are already traveling to Utah to ride Moab. The SLC area is easier to get to than any of those locations and the resource is being under-utilized..

Maybe a good idea to have a show of hands of all those that have traveled out of the state to ride. It sounds like a fair amount of people have been to whistler this year.

Also maybe good to kind of compare whistler to disneyland and maybe the trails they want us to ride maybe to lagoon or something.

[ectreeskier11]

stressing a whistler relation may not be the best idea, as it's a resort, and that would encourage them to pass the buck even more and put pressure on a resort to step up, which would be great but isn't the goal of this whole thing. that'd definitely be more of a long term project.

[drboudreaux]

I need pictures or video ASAP of LCC. It is for a news story tonight on KUTV2. Thanks.

[ectreeskier11]

I need pictures or video ASAP of LCC. It is for a news story tonight on KUTV2. Thanks.

the trail specifically? or just lcc in general?

[junto]

I have to say I'm not a fan of the Forest Circus asking me to beg a private company to build trails on my public land. Stressing the Bridger-Teton model that works and is showing incredible results and support from both within the biking community as well as other trail user groups.

Remember that they are closing the trail completely including foot traffic. Biking is almost secondary.

Just saying, I think the RS 2477 route is barking up the wrong tree, from what I can tell so far (although preliminary) LCC trail is lacking quite a bit from what the State uses as a minimum criteria to assert an RS 2477 claim. (Although, this state is not afraid to throw millions of dollars towards court cases it has no chance at winning, but they're far more likely to waste that kind of money on ATV'ers than MTB)

That being said, remember that in Jackson they lost 2 trails to permanent closure under the agreement before they got to build the awesomeness that is there now. Just to keep a little optimism. But I also don't think the forest circus district here is as open minded as up there.

[steeze_pizza]

stressing a whistler relation may not be the best idea, as it's a resort, and that would encourage them to pass the buck even more and put pressure on a resort to step up, which would be great but isn't the goal of this whole thing. that'd definitely be more of a long term project.

good point, Jackson would be a better example of traveling to ride, I've been there twice this summer.

[Touring_Sedan]

I need pictures or video ASAP of LCC. It is for a news story tonight on KUTV2. Thanks.

We're looking for video, HD preferred, POV or otherwise. We can also use still pictures of riders, features, or just the trail in general. The sooner the better, if all things work out, this story will air tonight @ 10pm.

Send me PM and I'll give you an email address to send stills and links, or an FTP to upload.

If you've got stuff on Youtube of Vimeo, we can pull from there too.

Thanks.

[junto]

good point, Jackson would be a better example of traveling to ride, I've been there twice this summer.

It would be a nice touch to mention all the money in grants to build trail up there this year as a way to make Jackson a biking destination (the reason they have paid FS workers building trail)

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5942

Seems like I remember them getting even more money than this grant this year...I'll look around and see if I can find out more

[BushwackerinPA]

I need pictures or video ASAP of LCC. It is for a news story tonight on KUTV2. Thanks.

I dont know if you guys want to show this or not but I dug this up on youtube.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnwjH8b4_cI"]YouTube- Little Cottonwood Canyon Downhill Mountain Biking[/nomedia]

[TheMessenger]

Just saying, I think the RS 2477 route is barking up the wrong tree, from what I can tell so far (although preliminary) LCC trail is lacking quite a bit from what the State uses as a minimum criteria to assert an RS 2477 claim.

Really? I disagree. There is documented proof that a trail has been there for at least a hundred years. That goes way, way beyond the 'minimum' requirement for a rs 2477 claim. You could ride your dirtbike up there and you would have a pretty strong legal defense for it. I have 'friends' at Save Our Canyons who admit as much.

[Trackhead]

http://connect2utah.com/news-story/?nxd_id=102165

I love how they hide "under the banner of watershed". Yet there are thousands and thousands of diesel/oil spewing vehicles, endless ski resort construction with heavy machinery, and defecating skiers, but one bike trail is just going to tip the scales. The watershed argument gets old.

[TheProf]

Thanks for taking the time to meet with them Mike. All in all I thought it was a decent story - with the exception of the asshat talking about hearing stories of guys riding over tents and how he's always 'pinning it'.

The ironic thing is when the ranger talks about "they [meaning bikers] don't have any knowledge about the environmental impacts" she doesn't know that one of the people who meets with the WAFTA board is an environmental engineer actively working with gov't agencies on a regular basis. That we're all aware of the NEPA studies, and that it's possible to build sustainable trails through sensitive areas. That we wanted to work with them to fix, re-route, and otherwise make it work somehow.

Surprise! We have college degrees, families, careers... and we vote.

[Trackhead]

Thanks for taking the time to meet with them Mike. All in all I thought it was a decent story - with the exception of the asshat talking about hearing stories of guys riding over tents and how he's always 'pinning it'.

The ironic thing is when the ranger talks about "they [meaning bikers] don't have any knowledge about the environmental impacts" she doesn't know that one of the people who meets with the WAFTA board is an environmental engineer actively working with gov't agencies on a regular basis. That we're all aware of the NEPA studies, and that it's possible to build sustainable trails through sensitive areas. That we wanted to work with them to fix, re-route, and otherwise make it work somehow.

Surprise! We have college degrees, families, careers... and we vote.

The news had to put in the quote from the bro/brah, just to add their little bit of controversy I guess. That guy was straight outta the tool shed, and a dull one at that.

Anyway, thanks Mike for taking the time to go up there for the interview. Perhaps the story will at least make the forest service think a little longer before acting like children with power tools.

[DerJaeger]

I'm going to try to make it to the Great Outdoors initiative meeting today, but I just wanted to add: I don't know if you guys have seen it, but they have a digg-style site too:

http://ideas.usda.gov/ago/ideas.nsf/product

Right now, it looks like the ATV - sorry, "OHV" - crowd (aka "jigglies") are stacking the votes over there.

[beaterdit]

The news had to put in the quote from the bro/brah, just to add their little bit of controversy I guess. That guy was straight outta the tool shed, and a dull one at that.

Anyway, thanks Mike for taking the time to go up there for the interview. Perhaps the story will at least make the forest service think a little longer before acting like children with power tools.

What station did this air on? I'd like to check it out.

edit: Nevermind, found it in TH's link.

Ryan Maxwell=Dumbass

[Touring_Sedan]

What station did this air on? I'd like to check it out.

SALT LAKE COUNTY (KUTV) - Mountain bikers are finding one of their favorite Little Cottonwood Canyon trails closed. There are small signs, but most notably, the forest service cut more than a dozen trees to block the trail.
Mountain bikers, particularly those that enjoy the freeride version of the sport, have used rough trails stemming from old roads in Little Cottonwood Canyon for at least six years. A system can take a rider from the top to the bottom of the canyon without using the road.
"There's a large group that do this kind of riding," said Mike Howell who is a member of the Wasatch Area Freeride Trails Association.
Cathy Kahlow with the US Forest Service, said the trail is unsanctioned and maintained by the riders who use it, with no knowledge of environmental impacts. Last week, the Forest Service decided to put an end to the party, blocking the trail with more than a dozen trees. "This area particularly has resource protection emphasis and watershed protection emphasis," said Kahlow.
A portion of the trail spills into Tanner's Flat and the Forest Service said it received complaints of mountain bikers tearing through the campgrounds. "It has created issues in the past," admitted Ryan Maxwell after we found him at the blocked trail. "I've heard of people mowing over people's tents."
Other riders think they can solve the problems without shutting down the trail. Mike Howell said they opened a dialogue with the Forest Service three years ago offering to change or move the trail away from sensitive areas. He said the Forest Service didn't want to talk. "It's frustrating that after three years we get no notice at all and all of a sudden they are cutting down 40 year old trees," said Howell.
"We just need to find the right place," insisted Kahlow. Little Cottonwood might not be it. Kahlow said the Forest Service will keep working to protect the area.
As Maxwell rode away, looking for another way to get to the trail, he wasn't convinced cut trees were going to stop anything. Howell and his organization don't want riders picking up chainsaws and cutting more illegal trail, but acknowledge it is already happening. Both sides think ski resorts in the Cottonwoods could help solve the problem with steeper, more technical trails. So far, that has only been talk.

[phatfreeheeler]

As unhelpful as Ryan was to our cause, he's right about one thing. Cut trees will not solve anything. 2-3 years from now it will be opened up again. Just like last time. I wonder if he even realizes the opportunity he screwed up?

Hopefully we can gather some momentum from this assault on public land by the FS and use this to launch some positive change.

I really wish the whole resort comments would have been left out. They are stupid! Resorts are private businesses. If they choose to bring good lift served riding to Utah, that is their economic choice. We can't vote for that unless they are already planning to make it happen for their own gain and need support to get the plan approved. Public forests however belong to everyone and should be used to better serve the public. Anything that gets people off the couch and exercising is positive for our society. If we can do it without totally destroying the beauty that surrounds us, all the better. If we can add a few extra trails to separate user groups and reduce conflicts that would be even better. It really should be expected in the year 2010 in the single best located city in the US for combining mountain recreation with urban life.

[powder4breakfast]

A few of us were at the meeting this morning. The room was overflowing and after an hour of speaches (during a listening meeting) they opened up for less than a half hour of questioning... whatever.

At least two of us were able to ask Ken Salazar questions concerning LCC and the method of working with the forest service and government agencies. Breakout sessions were to follow; but, I had to get back to work.

Questions were not answered on the spot; but, rather recorded for further evaluation.

[cpj.slc]

I went to the DOI meeting this morning. Dr B did a great job representing the interests of bikers, and I thought mtn bikers as a group had more voice than any other single interest group. However, there were so many groups there that I came away without much hope of this single meeting leading anywhere. However, Gov Herbert was there and so was Mayor Becker and they were interested in recreational pursuits leading to economic development. If we can stay motivated and use the USFS antagonistic actions as a motivation to unite bikers we might be able to get things to happen. We just need to stay active and figure out how to bring more attention, from influential people, to the fact that there is a real lack of free ride options here in Utah and we as a state are going to loose out on recreation dollars to places like Jackson Hole and Black Rock in Oregon (again, I think we want to stay away from Whistler as an example. We don't want the USFS to pass the buck to resorts).

[TheProf]

Thanks for sticking around for the Q&A... well, for the Q. Hopefully they will actually get around to the A part. (I had to get back to work too)

I think we need to remain "in their face" and not let this die down. Keep calling, writing, bitching, and if that doesn't work... get your headlamps and chainsaws ready.

[cpj.slc]

Thanks for sticking around for the Q&A... well, for the Q. Hopefully they will actually get around to the A part. (I had to get back to work too)

I think we need to remain "in their face" and not let this die down. Keep calling, writing, bitching, and if that doesn't work... get your headlamps and chainsaws ready.

Totally agree.

We should all stay on emailing Cathy and Lorraine at USFS. Who else up the chain can we contact? Could we build relationships with the Mayors office or Governor's office to help us? I know Huntsman was a mountain bikers, his son even made the cover of bike, I am just trying to think of people we could leverage.

If all else fails, it really wouldn't be hard to undo what the USFS has done.

[DerJaeger]

Would there be interest in creating DH options in Ogden area?

I'm thinking the local government would be supportive because the city made a strategic decision to make Ogden an outdoor recreation destination. There's already Snowbasin, but perhaps there's potential for public options around Ogden Canyon or off route 84?