Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

[DoWork]

I am still 200% behind TC and his efforts to exact real and serious redress from Salomon. I hope heads do roll. TC, you have my number if you need anything, you know where I am.

Cool man, no worries. Thanks for being there for D. I do understand what you're saying and while it took me a while to come to the conclusion that I did, I think I came to the right one. The actual act of screwing up the boot wasn't even the nail in the coffin, it was the dishonesty about every single detail from that point on that really steamed me, personally. I really did hold out judgement because I do realize that there are plenty of hard working people at Salomon that never heard of or saw the Quest in its inception. Salomon's PR removed any lingering doubt that I had as to whether they deserved another shot or not.

In respects to Beyond's post, I have made an effort to cut out every Amer product I own, I just sold my Arc Stingray jacket- which was hard because I loved it- because of this. But hey, I actually like my Lofoten better, so I guess it worked out. The only thing I'm keeping is my stingray pants because they're beat and I wouldn't get shit for them anyways. Besides, I fart on them, which now brings me newfound satisfaction every time.

I realize that I have a tendency to be an interwebz meaniehead sometimes, but this is one of the few times that the vitriol is actually only a small percentage of what I feel I should be administering. I'm trying to remain articulate and at least semi polite to those involved out of courtesy for D's situation, but man the urge to hit the caps lock button and go to work is overwhelming sometimes, especially when Sally hides behind shit like "There was no standard"... Why don't they just say "we can't be trusted to innovate, we can only copy the work of others... poorly"

Is there even any more room in Salomon's mouth for more feet for chrissakes?

[Speedfreak]

Thus far, with no existing norm, we are not able to provide a 100% reliable solution for our boots/soles for low-tech style bindings. At this point, we will not be releasing any low-tech touring boots/soles this fall. The rest of the Quest boots, which passed norms, will still be available.

Why not just get Dynafit to make the inserts for you? Oh, that's right, it would be too expensive.



Here, I'll speak to you in the only language you seem to understand:

You are going to take a beating this year in shops all across the country - in sales numbers, and even worse for your long-term prospects, a beating in reputation that will spawn year-after-year and ever-deepening beatings in those sales numbers. This beating is going to make the one Marker took almost 20 years to recover from look like one of those pat-on-the-ass spankings you got when you were a kid. Good luck with that. Fucktards.

[wooley12]

Been kinda cruising this thread, I've PM'd TC and been on the planet for a while with experience in providing B2B custom goods from China so I'll pass on my 2c.


Error #1 - Those off shore suppliers can knock off whatever you send them amazingly well if you send them a complete sample. If you send specs and diagrams on anything complicated, you had better be in the design and sample rooms when they are made. There are very few Chinese factory workers/owners who ski or have even seen snow. Pulling the first product off the line is also recommended. Product manager (forced?) error.

Error #2 - Mis-interperatation or more likely, lack of specification on drawings, combined with the need to hit cost targets, caused that piece of crap tech toe fitting to be made by a "three guys in a hut" subcontractor who had no clue. Lack of specification of the entire fitting/boot interface was insufficient or the email got lost. The Product manager of the fitting/boot interface had other things on his mind. Or was downsized/promoted in mid stream.



Error #3 - Not enough diligence with samples. - Every E-tailer wants to have it first and pre-production, rep or testing samples got into the market. Big Customer- " I want it ASAP for my Etail operation" Rep - "You pay my kids collage tuition. I'll call a guy I know at the home office"

Someone (including the legal intern and the VP for Sales) is in a cubicle or at a trade show somewhere and needs to get his/her "good review" for a 3% raise. They fell short because there is too much on his/her plate.

At the end of the day, we are talking about the failure of "Salomon" or "Amer Sports" in their corporate commitment to quality. Quality/safety is down on the to do list beneath "make the numbers".

Result - The Prefect Storm

[weasel1]

Besides, I fart on them, which now brings me newfound satisfaction every time.

Precious, that....

I'm trying to remain articulate and at least semi polite to those involved out of courtesy for D's situation, but man the urge to hit the caps lock button and go to work is overwhelming sometimes, especially when Sally hides behind shit like "There was no standard"... Why don't they just say "we can't be trusted to innovate, we can only copy the work of others... poorly"

Agreed...and I think you have done admirably at remaining level-headed. We are on (I think) the same page here, or at least the same chapter.

I appreciate what you have contributed thus far, I hope you did not feel I was taking you specifically to task.

[Hugh Conway]

Precious, that....

Nah, precious is the "engineering" standards that dominate the big boys in the ski industry. Careful, rational, people have realized Amer isn't the only one playing the game and that TC was the latest to get burned, and badly, but he's not the only one. BD advertising their testing isn't really worth much - the Factors still had broken bits the first season and there's a history of shitty poorly tested equipment - like the Pitbull. As for K2, well, here's the qualifications for a Snowboard Binding Engineer:
[ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2870186"]K2 Hiring Snowboard binding Design Engineer - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]
which aren't terribly impressive.

It's a marketing dominated low margin industry. Loud bitching couple with moving $ is what matters most.

[DoWork]

I hope you did not feel I was taking you specifically to task.

Nah, no worries man, we're clearly on the same team. I just understand the blind hate side too. I mean, it's really hard not to be that way but I'm trying just so that we don't look like a bunch of screaming idiots to all the industry peeps who are probably checking into this thread but the blind hate is important too.. We need to get across that we (as well as just being angry boycott mongers) are intelligent, well connected and motivated skiers that aren't just going to stomp our feet- we're going to make moves and spread the bad word to everyone we know or can reach. So yeah, I am thinking the exact same thing as you, just with a little more adolescent rage mixed in.

Next time I'm up in Middlebury visiting D, we will have to get up for a few pints at the tavern for sure.

Salomon right now is the laughingstock of the ski gear world. It's been a looooooong time IF EVER that such a huge company has screwed the pooch this hard in front of this many people on so many levels.

[sfotex]

To be fair to BC mag, the pertinent excerpts read:

"The best laid plans sometimes end in failure. [...] Translated [referring to a quoted press release]: There's a chance that the boot's tech fitting could fail, causing a spectacular wreck. There were at least two documented failures of the toe fittings in the field last winter, one of which resulted in severe injuries."

Also, the title is: "Best Foot Forward"
With a subtitle of "Salomon Stumbles on BC Quest"

They also mentioned the tech insert problem in the boot review itself.
"Salomon needs to figure out the tech fittings ASAP" as a negative.

[XXX-er]

[ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198590"]Arc'Teryx type Softshell vs Hardshell - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

A good example of actively demonstrating against a product or a thing

this kind of action will do more to screw with AMER than just not buying AMER or choosing to say fuck for 19pages on one thread and you can go anywhere on the WWW to spread this word ... anywhere

[Skidog]

Funny page 2 of the Freeskier mag "buyers guide" I got yesterday...

Sallie Quest boots....NICE...

douche bags.

[ex-powderbroker]

I was trying to explain how shitty the quest inserts were to some nonskiing friends at a restaurant and came up with this handy diagram:

[telelebowski]

Salomon can go fuck themselves. They could have done the right thing numerous times in this fiasco, and they've consistently chosen the other path. So, Greg, tell your boss that you just lost a Czar purchase since a relative noob friend of mine asked what he should get this coming winter and I steered him away. You make your choices, but they're not without consequences.

TC, best of luck with the rehab, sorry that you had to be put through all this.

[laseranimal]

Adding a little TC stoke to counter the continued FUCKUPANCE of Salomon, Amer Sports, and the Salomon Quest 12 Boot and their CRAPPY INSERTS

[DoWork]

I was trying to explain how shitty the quest inserts were to some nonskiing friends at a restaurant and came up with this handy diagram:

Salomon should have gone with this design. That would at least be delicious.

[Caucasian Asian]

Salomon should have gone with this design. That would at least be delicious.

And it would have given Dalton something to snack on while he waited for his evac.

[Jonathan S.]

The following link is marginally NSFW -- no, sorry, no nekid pics, but definitely obscene, plus you might vomit all over your keyboard, which would be rather unseemly at the workplace:
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/new...ntStoryID=7621
(Maybe some UK mags can attend and pass out the pertinent pics?)

[neck beard]

Now I see what it going on.

The Quest wasn't just a boot designed for Salomon's foray into the backcountry market.

Salomon have embarked on a Backcountry Quest project that is more multi-dimensional than just a boot offering. I guess that's business.

It is as though backcountry didn't exist before Salomon decided to make a boot for it, a task at which they have mostly failed. So far they have made a stiff light boot with a walk mode and rubber soles and in the very short life of the boot produced one serious injury and one failure in an AMGA exam thanks to not testing the tech inserts. They since pulled the tech inserts from market, scoffed at how few were actually distributed and blamed a lack of standards whilst engaging in a legal tango that will outlast the hapless user of their touring boot which failed dismally when paired with the most popular style of backcountry binding there is.

What should be noted is just how quickly the tech insert failure produced substantial negatives consequences vs. how few were on the market. This points to just how useless the design was. The % failure rate was very high and very rapid.

Next: polite factual and short* emails to the following. The emails should explain the facts so far with the aim of letting the UK hosts know about Salomon's dirty Quest story before they even touch down.

Ski Club UK skiers@skiclub.co.uk
Snow and Rock manager.direct@snowandrock.com (it is a big chain shop, don't expect t reach the man)
Snow Centre email@thesnowcentre.com (indoor slope)
Chill Factor corporate@chillfactore.com (indoor slope)

Should we draft a good mail and then all send it to these addresses? Perhaps included should be a link to the wildsnow.com coverage of the issue?

* kind of rules me out, doesn't it

[garyfromterrace]

I understand your sentiment and stance on the issue and in many ways I agree, however I think you're looking past several key issues here and it's why Salomn is dead to me at this point, regardless of how they remedy their Low Tech interfaces in the future. I'm going to point them out to you individually so you know exactly what I'm saying.

1). This boot failed in testing and still it went on to be a full production item, obviously without any strengthening/redesign of the LT interface system, which would be expected in any modern Quality Controlled environment.

2). Salomon marketing hype tells everyone this is a bomb-proof super-gnar boot that is the best of the best, a hardcore BC skier's wet dream, capable of tackling any terrain when in actuality it was about as durable as a wet napkin. Ok, maybe moreso than that, but only enough to get you to a dangerous place before it shit the bed at the worst possible time.

3). After TC's accident we were told BY SALOMON that they were pre-production boots and there were 13 pairs in North America. This was a flat-out lie, as there were 250+ pairs and it was indeed a full pruduction boot. But the guy who told us that was nice, so maybe we shouldn't pin them to the wall, right?

3). If it weren't for input from people like TC blowing the whistle and Lou Dawson doing THE SIMPLEST BENCH TESTING EVER, how many of these boots would still be out there like land mines, waiting for an unsuspecting skier to buckle in and take a death tumble. We don't know. Salomon only issued the recall when the internets had already done it for them. They just made it easy to send them back.

4). Salomon is an international company decades away from its first rodeo that has both the funds, the knowhow and the duty to make sure a new product is what they say it is before they sell it. To hide behind the notion that they had no standard to go by is another bullshit geyser. Dynafit made the things how long ago with no standard and they hold up fine! To use this as an excuse is another insult to our intelligence.

5). Overall, I think their laziness, lack of attention on every single level possible to important details and even dishonesty about every concievable detail so far have shown me enough about Salomon's corporate/legal/R&D/marketing policy and how they view their duties to skiers for me to make an educated and well-thought-out decision about who I want to support with what little money I do have. I can tell you with no reservations that I will never own a Salomn product as long as I live, and will continue to discourage others from doing so as well.

That's right. Fuck Salomon- in an articluate, thought-out and informed manner. Twice. Of course Salomon's going to put a nice guy on the job to quell the flames, that's his job to put his name in the fray and take the heat and cool us down. So we're supposed to say "Meh, this Nick guy's a classy dude, let's just kick our feet up and mix a mai tai until this blows over and Salomon gives us all carefully-written hadjobs"" isn't flying with me. Sometimes people need to know how angry you are and right now I'm ALL CAPS ANGRY WITH SALOMON. Not that I would expect it from them, but man after a fuckup like that maybe the CEO should show up at Dalt's door and say "Hey, we're fuckstains and we screwed you over royally for trusting us, so I'm here with the surgical team that fixed the Herminator and a whole team of PT specialists to do everything we can to help you get back on your feet, we can worry about lawyers after you're walking." But no. That is a fantasy. We get to try to help TC in what small ways we can as he struggles with the financial, physical and emotional ambiguity of his athletic future while we get to watch the lawyer mambo, which may be a function of modern corporate culture but it's Still. Fucking. Bullshit. I know where I stand, and I would appreciate it if you stop inferring that it's wrong to form this judgement at this point in time. I've seen everything I need to see.

[/blograntwhatever]

Been away for a month, so quite surprised at Solly's only response in the last month - the infamous "norm" argument.

Thanks Dowork, you summed it up nicely. FU salomon, boycott Amer.
Our money does talk. I've steered at least 5 people away from Amer products since this shit happened, and will continue. Now that solly has shown themselves to be truly incompetent, insensitive weasels, I think I'll just continue the boycott forever as opposed to when they make things right for Dalton (if that ever happens). Thanks Hohes, for the links. Gonna write me some emails tonight.

All the best Dalton - go hard on PT man, go hard and keep the fire burnin.

[laseranimal]

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/New...-of-Ski-Boots/

been back and forth on the Twitter with them, basically First Tracks is sorry that Dalton got hurt but:

FirstTracksMag

@Laseranimal Without the tech inserts the alleged failure is a non-issue for this year's Quest line. We explained all in depth in our piece.

The gist of their argument is that its not Salomon's fault that the inserts they designed SUCKED and may have been responsible for Dalton getting hurt, because companies like Garmont aren't using dynafit inserts either. Plus as long as you have no conscience whatsoever, you should have no problem giving money to a company whose unbelievable negligence and lack of due diligence in testing allowed a product to come to RETAIL market and result in the maiming of a user.

I just have one question for the folks over at First Tracks, do you actually write the copy or does Salomon PR just e-mail over an Advertorial and you simply throw it into an Echo Chamber?


Edit: changed it to specify it was the conversation on twitter, not the web article

[ex-powderbroker]

Nice 'article'. First tracks should have to eat shit for this. They weren't demo or beta or test units. Soloman already admitted that. This is the journalistic equivolent of someone betting tens of thousands of dollars in vegas, and then asking for his money back because it was his first time. What a fucking joke. These guys need to be held accountable, but I guess know one cares about that rag anyway.

Their pr is pretty intense this fall, we have to keep letting people know that the quest project is a fucking joke.

[njfreeskier]

we have to keep letting people know that the quest project is a fucking joke.

Agreed. I just got the first issue of Backcountry magazine this season, and on pg. 26 they have a 1/4 page write up about the quest boot, the toe piece failure and the "voluntary recall." I think it's a joke that it is being described as voluntary, but that's a whole other issue. But then on pg. 80, they rave about the quest in their boot reviews. I really don't get it. Even if Dalton wasn't a friend, after hearing what happened, I'd still be boycotting Salomon (and Amer) products, until they fix this situation, and fix it right. What they did was unacceptable and disgusting in every possible way, and how they're trying to "rectify" the situation falls under the same category. Regardless of the quality (and in some cases lack there of) their products, the way they are treating someone who supported their company, a very active member in the ski community, and someone who was injured by their product is enough to turn me off from their company and the products they make.

It would've been very easy for them to make this right, and instead based on their comments every step of the way, it seems like they're doing everything in their power to weasel out this, and basically say too bad, we're just going to move on from here on out. It's unethical, and a slap in the face to the ski community.

I for one will be wearing duct tape/a sticker on my helmet that says something to the effect of "F*** Salomon," or "Don't Support Salomon", and another one that says "Support TC" or "Help Get TC Back On Skis."

The shirts were a great idea DoWork, but I think some letters to the various ski publications, especially from those who were there might be the next step in getting the word out and letting people know there are other, better choices out there for products. Salomon turned their back on the ski community, now its time for us to do the same to them.

[ACH]

Presently this thread is doing pretty well in search results.
Lou's post is right at the top. For those of you that FaceBook, has there been a page dedicated to this? Word of mouth will get the message out, the more places we talk about it, the more people will hear.

[njfreeskier]

Here's a link to the facebook page called Don't Buy From Amer Sports (Salomon et al.) - Support Our Buddy Dalton: http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php...5230227&ref=ts

[ACH]

Here's a link to the facebook page called Don't Buy From Amer Sports (Salomon et al.) - Support Our Buddy Dalton: http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php...5230227&ref=ts

Thank you, joined, will pass it along.

[wren]

Arre people writing letters to the editor for magazines like Powder, Backcountry, etc? The snippet of information they provide in their buyers guides totally misses the mark and we should be letting both them and un-informed readers the truth. I'll be writing letters but my knowledge is just from this thread, I'm sure their are others out there who have more first hand knowledge and can more accurately describe the fuck-up.

[powbmps]

The Freeskier buyer's guide has Salomon all over it.

Second page is a two page add for the Quest 12 boot.

In the Editor's Setup, the publiser of the magazine shows his boot of choice as the Quest. "From sidecountry hiking to Retallack cat trips, this boot lives up to the billing of being an alpine-capable boot with true exploring capabilities."

In the Boots section they list the Salomon Quest W as an Editor's Pick.

I can't tell from the pictures, but do these models have the touring inserts?