Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

[ts01]

^^^ agreed. i would hate to see salomon "misplace" them.

The term you're looking for is "spoliation of evidence."

[pfluffenmeister]

^^^ right you are sir: "In law, spoliation of evidence is the intentional or negligent withholding, hiding, alteration or destruction of evidence relevant to a legal proceeding."

if salomon chooses to engage in spoilation they will be in even more trouble: "The theory of the spoliation inference is that when a party destroys evidence, it may be reasonable to infer that the party had "consciousness of guilt" or other motivation to avoid the evidence."

an interesting example that is diametrically opposed to TC's: "Spoliation is often an issue in the context where a person claims he has been injured by a defective product which he then discarded or lost. In that circumstance, the defendant manufacturer or distributor may move to dismiss the case on the basis of spoliation."

[JimLad]

Looking at the pics on wildsnow it looks obvious to me the problem is not (mainly) the plastic but the metal piece. It looks woefully inadequate. Thinner, more lightening holes. In fact I'm surprised the Dynafit version isn't beefier and has no I-beam forged into it to prevent the whole thing bending, though they must have tested it to satisfactory loads.

Such a small piece of the boot that can't weigh that much even when substantially beefed up. It seems bizarre to try to shave a gram off such a critical piece

[Patches]

Enginerds...could some of the holes be positioning holes? Meaning little nubs stick out of the mold and go into a couple of the holes on the insert to hold it in the right spot while the plastic is being cast?

If so, maybe a couple of the holes were added by the factory to make it easier to manufacture the toe blocks, without asking the engineers.

[Patches]

Oh yeah, anyone with toe blocks should send them to TC instead of Salomon.

[Eluder]

I wanna start by saying: Thin Cover I wish you the best possible recovery and the best of luck with the connected issues.

Enginerds...could some of the holes be positioning holes? Meaning little nubs stick out of the mold and go into a couple of the holes on the insert to hold it in the right spot while the plastic is being cast?

Looking at the inserts you really have to wonder, why so many holes? There is the obvious number holes and thickness that jump out right away when comparing the two inserts. I kinda wonder if there was a material change or something. Maybe thats just me trying figure out how this design could have worked. Regardless it is a shitty outcome.

I think there is a bit of an overreaction here going by many. There was lot of pressure to get this boot to the public, mainly by people like us (whatever that means). I don't think it is too far of a stretch to say that there was some level of testing still going on with the early release. It also seems that the tech insert was a second thought on these boots. Notice the atomic offering doesn't even have them. I do want to add that it is bullshit that the purchasers of the product were not notified that they were testers, but aren't all first year product buyers kind of doing this.

I have a question for all the "Future boycotters" are you going to boycott all of Amer Sports products; Salomon, Atomic, Mavic, Arc'teryx, etc. An oversight was certainly made but products fail from design flaws all the time, some from brands that are even popular with many TGR users. This is why safety standards exist. What makes this situation different is unfortunately someone we know got hurt.

Sorry for the blog I've just been watching this thread since the beginning and had to post... and for the record I dont own any products from Amer Sports.

I do wanna commend you all for opening Salomons eyes to the issue. It seemed like it accelerated the recall. The most important thing to come from this is that TC is taken care of so he has the best chances of full recovery +++++vibes is all I can do.

[ectreeskier11]

I wanna start by saying: Thin Cover I wish you the best possible recovery and the best of luck with the connected issues.



Looking at the inserts you really have to wonder, why so many holes? There is the obvious number holes and thickness that jump out right away when comparing the two inserts. I kinda wonder if there was a material change or something. Maybe thats just me trying figure out how this design could have worked. Regardless it is a shitty outcome.

I think there is a bit of an overreaction here going by many. There was lot of pressure to get this boot to the public, mainly by people like us (whatever that means). I don't think it is too far of a stretch to say that there was some level of testing still going on with the early release. It also seems that the tech insert was a second thought on these boots. Notice the atomic offering doesn't even have them. I do want to add that it is bullshit that the purchasers of the product were not notified that they were testers, but aren't all first year product buyers kind of doing this.

I have a question for all the "Future boycotters" are you going to boycott all of Amer Sports products; Salomon, Atomic, Mavic, Arc'teryx, etc. An oversight was certainly made but products fail from design flaws all the time, some from brands that are even popular with many TGR users. This is why safety standards exist. What makes this situation different is unfortunately someone we know got hurt.

Sorry for the blog I've just been watching this thread since the beginning and had to post... and for the record I dont own any products from Amer Sports.

I do wanna commend you all for opening Salomons eyes to the issue. It seemed like it accelerated the recall. The most important thing to come from this is that TC is taken care of so he has the best chances of full recovery +++++vibes is all I can do.

sure, i'll boycott all their products. which is a shame as someone who mtb's as well as skis, as i wasn't aware they were associated with mavic. i really did have some intent to try some salomon gear this coming year, which is a shame now as it won't be happening, unless this gets resolved very quickly. i was also stoked on some of the atomic gear, but you bring up a good point, no atlas for me then. there is no way product testing should be simmering down to the general public, as you suggest, if this was their objective then they are even further off base. as for trying to push it to market, shouldn't we have seen similar issues with the bd factors or dalbello virus? i don't recall seeing any issues with either, apart from the paling in comparison walk mode issue on 1st gen factors.

[skiing-in-jackson]

Big vibes to Thin Cover. I saw the evac thread and didn't see this one.

Heal up.

I'll be following this one pretty closely.

[stradissimo]

It looks like beta testing products on unsuspecting customers might be corporate policy for Amer Sports.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/...-failure_93054

If Salomon doesn't make this right by TC, I certainly won't buy anything produced under the umbrella of Amer.

[XXX-er]

Looking at the inserts you really have to wonder, why so many holes? There is the obvious number holes and thickness that jump out right away when comparing the two inserts.

I think there is a bit of an overreaction here going by many. There was lot of pressure to get this boot to the public, mainly by people like us (whatever that means). I don't think it is too far of a stretch to say that there was some level of testing still going on with the early release.

I have a question for all the "Future boycotters" are you going to boycott all of Amer Sports products; Salomon, Atomic, Mavic, Arc'teryx, etc. .
.

yes MORE holes in the salomon plate than the Dynafit for no real reason and by putting the BIG holes closer to the ends instead of in the middle they remove material which weakens the salomon plate way more than the dynafit plate and the salomon plate is missing the thick ridge at the front

you don't need to be an engineer to look at that fitting and say that its fucked SO I would bet SOMEHOW this got over looked plain and simple ... miss a foil in a PD meeting and suddenly nobody is working on the toe fittings

EVERYTHING is rushed to market nowdays ,everything we consume is made off shore in china without A corporation fucking up but this time they did, IMO blame it on the corporation ... just the way things happen

I found in computer HW it wasnt unusual for the country tech support guy to have never heard of the product you are servicing SO he calls the factory and the engineer hasnt heard of it either ,which all made me wonder how these assholes I was representing made it this far ... then I realized this is how it works and they are clearly the best in the business.

All those corporations you list make very good products,better than anybody else damn near all the time ... which is why I buy them

I own all those products and this incident won't stop me from buying more

[DoWork]

I have a question for all the "Future boycotters" are you going to boycott all of Amer Sports products; Salomon, Atomic, Mavic, Arc'teryx, etc. An oversight was certainly made but products fail from design flaws all the time... What makes this situation different is unfortunately someone we know got hurt.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, and it's hard to figure out exactly how I feel about it but my beef is not 100% with everyone salomon- I understand there's good, hard working people and great athletes that work with and for them. Boycotting other companies under the same umbrella kind of seems like punching you out because of something your 3rd cousin you've never met did, and it just doesn't make sense to me unless there was some "from the top" order to not fix the boot. Sure they may be very loosely associated with Sally, but let's try to keep cooler heads here, I doubt anyone at Arc ever even heard of the Quest. My specific problem lies in the PERCEPTION of weak links in the overall boot system by the manufacturer. At this point it is well kown that there were beta-level failures of the product. It's the laziness or unwillingness to ensure quality at a price that I have a HUGE problem with, and I find it wholly inexcusable. SOMEONE made a conscious decision to NOT use the tried-and-true proven system available and design a new product but didn't do anything to test it's limits. What limited testing they DID do, they basically ignored the results of but I can see why that could happen based on my experience with product designers and engineers...

They probably went with a proprietary Tech interface system to save money. By the time they got through beta, there had clearly been problems- I bet they talked about it and the meeting probably went something like this:

A: "So we had a failure, Tech toe pieces on the Quest Pebax Pro pulled out on one of our testers in AK"
B: "Well, what are we going to do? Pull production"
A: "Well, we could do a destructive testing, but that would just bring us back to square one if they fail"
B: "But couldnt that be dangerous?"
A: "Yeah, if we disprove our efforts or pull the design, we go over budget trying to reconfigure and then we look like HUDGE assholes. VERY dangerous!"
B: "You're right, the suits will totally ask us why we are fucking retarded and dind't just go with the Dyna inserts to begin with and then we'll be out on our asses and people who actually think and do their jobs will be in our places!"
A: "Exactly. Besides, this guy was a sick BC Rando dude on a peak in Alaska, he's probably in the top 2% of what people will do, I doubt anyone else will push it that hard."
B: "Yeah, I doubt anyone else will break them, most people who buy this will be liftline posing and blogging about tip and tail rocker."
B: "Cool, let's go fingerblast eachother's assholes instead of test this boot any further"
A: "Agreed"

... and this is my problem. It's designing something and selling it as "The boot that can go around the world" without knowing 150% that it can do so in a relatively indestructible manner. It's fucked, and while corporate america will never hear what I have to say or probably even give a shit, I can speak with my money. THAT's why I have chosen to not buy Salomon products, because I refuse to pay into a system that doesn't have a set of checks and balances in place to ensure that what I get out will laugh at my feeble input, take my beating for years and still hold up in the harshest of conditions.

I want money spent on R&D, testing and QA- not marketing hype. I know this is the fault of a very few people at Salomon, but if I don't speak with my discretionary income expenditures, how else can I voice my distaste for their operational douchebaggery? Through all of this, we just need to remember TC's struggle. He is living the reality of their professional inadequacies every day now. It's not a fair deal by any means and shame on them for being lazy, number crunching pencil-necked dickheads.

I know you're not on "their side" so please don't think I'm beating you up, this is just my weekly long-winded blog about this subject. I think about it way too much and yes, looking into my friend's eyes as he lays in the hospital with a shattered leg because some fucking loser product engineer dickbags couldn't be bothered to do their job has cut me deeper than some funerals I've been to.

[/rant,blog,whatever]

[agent j]

B: "Yeah, I doubt anyone else will break them, most people who buy this will be liftline posing and blogging about tip and tail rocker."
B: "Cool, let's go fingerblast eachother's assholes instead of test this boot any further"
A: "Agreed"

[/rant,blog,whatever]

Sig worthy right there.

I think you might be giving them to much credit as to actually have thought about it. I don't think they tested the tech inserts at all.

[Skidog]

Only 13 pairs of boots and 14 sets of pads out there according to wildsnow...

http://www.wildsnow.com/2899/salomon...-announcement/

I cant believe this is true...I know of at least 4 pairs personally, and i dont know that many people...

[XXX-er]

I think you might be giving them to much credit as to actually have thought about it. I don't think they tested the tech inserts at all.

Someone was supposed to test that shit but if everyone thot everyone else was doing the testing , nobody was doing any testing ,but conspiracy theories are way more entertaining than ... gee we forgot

[summit]

30% failure rate... good work Solomon

[toast2266]

I've gotta go with rludes on this one. There's no question that Salomon royally fucked up, and it hugely sucks that TC is hurt because of it. That said, equipment breaks all the time and many times its due to poor design. Salomon dropped the ball here, but they generally had a decent reputation, and I would expect them to learn from their mistake and produce better products in the future. I don't really see anything here that sets Salomon apart from any other large company.

If we boycott every company that's ever sent a shitty product to market that resulted in someone getting hurt, we'd all be sitting around in the woods naked, scavenging twigs and berries. Despite the pinto, I still drive a Ford.

I don't mean to diminish the shittiness of the situation - TC's in a world of hurt and its Salomon's fault. However, any other company could easily have made a similar mistake, and I don't feel any safer using some other company's new products than I would on Salomon's.

[XXX-er]

Never using anything made by AMER seems like a real "cut yer nose off to spite yer face" move and a spit in the bucket which the World wide market is

NOW if you could do something for this immediate situation ... then you will have done something

[summit]

Hey, there is a reason people still don't buy Marker. It is because their older designs exploded and cost many people their season... or their skiing career.

[weasel1]

Salomon dropped the ball here, but they generally had a decent reputation, and I would expect them to learn from their mistake and produce better products in the future. I don't really see anything here that sets Salomon apart from any other large company....

If we boycott every company that's ever sent a shitty product to market that resulted in someone getting hurt, we'd all be sitting around in the woods naked, scavenging twigs and berries....

However, any other company could easily have made a similar mistake, and I don't feel any safer using some other company's new products than I would on Salomon's.

While I agree that bringing to market a product like this that has had inadequate testing and design review can happen in nearly any company, I think the point of those who are voicing their intent not to purchase Salomon products (from what I have seen) is to express their dissatisfaction with the response from the company, and the effect of its potential negligence on a comrade. I do not think most here feel their 916's are now unsafe.

Using the marketplace to pressure a company is the fullest expression of democratic capitalism...in that it is the only venue in which consumers can really exert pressure on a business. No one of us has the budget to lobby for regulatory change, but the efforts of a cadre of dedicated consumers and opinion leaders can shape policy.

Personally, I think it is too soon to adequately gauge Salomon's response to this. While a week is an eternity on the internet, it is the blink of an eye when it comes to resolving litigation or liability claims. I fully hope that Salomon will respond to TC appropriately, and that he has an attorney that can ensure his interests are properly protected. I do not expect to hear of any such resolution soon, if in fact we hear at all (there is often a gag order with such a settlement).

TC and his family deserve a reasonable and accountable response. I, for one, think that the reservation of our collective purchasing power pending such an outcome is an appropriate action for us to take (it is really the only viable one).

Good thing I kept this short.

[Sessiøn]

As someone who is in the market for just about everything produced by Amer sports companies. I don't find it unreasonable that I insist that they take care of a customer who was terribly maimed by a failure of one of their products. Furthermore it just reinforces my notion to support smaller local companies when and if I can.

[toast2266]

Furthermore it just reinforces my notion to support smaller local companies when and if I can.

What makes you think that smaller companies would be in a better position to address a situation like TC's?

1) Small companies have less ability to fully and thoroughly test their products.
2) Their products often have significantly less engineering done on them.
3) If their products do fail causing you substantial injury, and you decide to sue them, they will go bankrupt long before you're able to extract any meaningful amount of money from them.
4) The pressures to bring a product to market in a timely fashion are hardly unique to large corporations.

To use a recent example, look at 333 skis. Its a small company that initially everyone got really excited about. It turns out that their skis aren't all that great, and it sounds like a few people had some pretty substantial failures. So if you'd bought from them early on because they were the small, cool company, and then their ski snapped in half, sending you to the hospital, where does that leave you? Having prompt customer service and giving you a free new pair of skis (ala PM gear) is awesome, but when your femur is snapped in half that won't do you a whole lot of good.

I don't mean to be shitting on small companies. I buy from them whenever I can because, in many ways, I think their products are often times superior. However, I'm generally not buying those products because I think they're safer than the equivalent product put out by Salomon, et al.

[bean]

I have a question for all the "Future boycotters" are you going to boycott all of Amer Sports products; Salomon, Atomic, Mavic, Arc'teryx, etc.

Seems that Amer has a problem with putting out terribly designed products that fail catastrophically and result in injuries.

[wardog]

"any other company could easily have made a similar mistake"

Toast, I respectfully disagree. Sure there are plenty of lousy products in the world, but how many of them are life-threatening EVERY TIME they're used as they're meant to be used? The stupidity of the Quest Dynafit interface is WAY over the top, a crystal-clear case of gross negligence. It doesn't matter how that brainless design came to be, or which individuals are responsible. Salomon shipped the boots and TC's life is wrecked.

"Salomon has been informed of a potential incompatibility when using Salomon Quest Pro Boots and low tech touring bindings (ex: Dynafit, G3 Onyx model, Plume, ATK Race)."

That statement from Salomon is weasel language. It makes me puke.

[Sessiøn]

What makes you think that smaller companies would be in a better position to address a situation like TC's?

1) Small companies have less ability to fully and thoroughly test their products.
2) Their products often have significantly less engineering done on them.
3) If their products do fail causing you substantial injury, and you decide to sue them, they will go bankrupt long before you're able to extract any meaningful amount of money from them.
4) The pressures to bring a product to market in a timely fashion are hardly unique to large corporations.

To use a recent example, look at 333 skis. Its a small company that initially everyone got really excited about. It turns out that their skis aren't all that great, and it sounds like a few people had some pretty substantial failures. So if you'd bought from them early on because they were the small, cool company, and then their ski snapped in half, sending you to the hospital, where does that leave you? Having prompt customer service and giving you a free new pair of skis (ala PM gear) is awesome, but when your femur is snapped in half that won't do you a whole lot of good.

I don't mean to be shitting on small companies. I buy from them whenever I can because, in many ways, I think their products are often times superior. However, I'm generally not buying those products because I think they're safer than the equivalent product put out by Salomon, et al.

Are you seriously using a fucking hippie with a mowhawk building ski's in a trailer out in the high desert as an example?
In my mind independents can't afford to put out shit that could seriously injure someone. And I never advocated blindly giving 333 dollars of your hard earned money to a "manufacturer" who clearly has some mental problems. You still have to prove that your product is solid.

[Salomon Freeski]

Salomon sincerely regrets the injury experienced by Mr. Dalton Harben as described in numerous web postings. We are taking the matter seriously and Salomon US has already committed to, and announced plans to, remove the limited number of Quest Pro boots with metal fittings from the market (as well as touring pad accessory fittings for other Quest boots). Mr. Harben’s attorney has contacted Salomon US, and therefore it is customary for all further communications regarding his injury to go through the appropriate legal channels. For all other skiers with Quest Pro boots or Quest touring pads, we repeat our request that such products be returned to Salomon US. A full copy of that request can be found as posted last Friday at http://www.wildsnow.com/2899/salomon...-announcement/ and [ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191256"]Saloman Quest Tech inserts failure thread - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]