Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

[Professor]

So Njfreeskier has persuaded me. I simply can not be allowed to make up my own mind. Sorry for posting and please carry on boycotting SALOMAN products. Sorry for the interruption.

For those that are not so zealous. Again, I hope your concerted efforts bring about the change you want. I also continue to hope things work out for TC.

[DoWork]

So Njfreeskier has persuaded me. I simply can not be allowed to make up my own mind. Sorry for posting and please carry on boycotting SALOMAN products. Sorry for the interruption.

For those that are not so zealous. Again, I hope your concerted efforts bring about the change you want. I also continue to hope things work out for TC.

I'm going to ignore the tone of your post and ask you a few simple questions for the sake of clarification.

1). Have you read this thread form the beginning, the Lou Dawson teardown blog, and the Salomon updates that turned out to be false?

2). How can you try to punch holes in peoples' opinions citing a lack of facts- a symptom which you suffer from far more than they do?

You seem to be an intelligent person, so that's why I ask. If you're going to complain about the completeness of facts at least have the common decency to bring yourself up to speed on all the information at hand. If you'd like to debate the relevancy of any key point, then do so. Don't complain about the lack of information if you obviously haven't taken the time to gather any yourself. There are many people here with keen insight and information into how and why this has crossed the line on so many occasions so don't discount their contributions by simply skimming by and tossing your two uninformed cents into the proverbial bucket in such a sensitive instance. Thanks.

[marshalolson]

professor, correct me if i am wrong, but clearly the whole story on salomon's end has not come out:

was it ineffective or poorly designed testing? was there a fundamental change that happened AFTER testing that was not accounted for? was the failure caused by a materials choice or a design choice? what percentage of failure did the recall items show? what variability in materials and machining where there? was the part in question sourced to an external manufacturing partner? or made in-house? what hardening method was called for, was it done, and was it effective? was the toe block changed and the tech fittings not supported the way initially intended? how far from spec were the bindings in question?

and on and on. and on. and on and on.

so yeah, thoughts and prayers go to TC with out question, and i hope this works out for him, long term in a reasonable manner, and i could not wish him more positive thoughts than i already do.

however, a fundamental tenant of our judicial system is "innocent until proven guilty", so rally the lynch mob all you want, but i have not seen a trial. and do remember, it was TC that escalated this into a legal issue. and rightly so, but that does mean you have to allow the legal system to run its course. i would love to see this settle cleanly and before a lengthy legal proceeding, but i can tell you salomon is scrambling to get the above questions answered for themselves as quickly as possible so they can proceed on their end as well.


nobody is disputing that the product should not have been in the marketplace, salomon included.

[Professor]

professor, correct me if i am wrong, but clearly the whole story on salomon's end has not come out:

was it ineffective or poorly designed testing? was there a fundamental change that happened AFTER testing that was not accounted for? was the failure caused by a materials choice or a design choice? what percentage of failure did the recall items show? what variability in materials and machining where there? was the part in question sourced to an external manufacturing partner? or made in-house? what hardening method was called for, was it done, and was it effective? was the toe block changed and the tech fittings not supported the way initially intended? how far from spec were the bindings in question?

and on and on. and on. and on and on.

These are all really good questions and it will be great when and if we see answers to these and the hundreds others that will be addressed. However, until that happens reading this entire thread has not answered all the questions. Reading Lou Dawson's information also doesnt answer all the questions. Reading Salomon's responses on the issue, even if incorrect, still dont answer the question. So when and if we hear a real response to how things happened, then I will make an informed decision. But bottom line, I am going to reserve my judgment on the issue. If others cant handle the fact that I do not agree with them at this point, then fine. But I am not inclined to argue with anyone that thinks there can only be one reason this accident initially occurred. As usual though, I should have known better than to offer an opinion that may not be popular around here.

I will say it one last time, I do wish TC the best.

[marshalolson]

These are all really good questions and it will be great when and if we see answers to these and the hundreds others that will be addressed. However, until that happens reading this entire thread has not answered all the questions. Reading Lou Dawson's information also doesnt answer all the questions. Reading Salomon's responses on the issue, even if incorrect, still dont answer the question. So when and if we hear a real response to how things happened, then I will make an informed decision. But bottom line, I am going to reserve my judgment on the issue. If others cant handle the fact that I do not agree with them at this point, then fine. But I am not inclined to argue with anyone that thinks there can only be one reason this accident initially occurred. As usual though, I should have known better than to offer an opinion that may not be popular around here.

I will say it one last time, I do wish TC the best.

unless this thing goes to trial (which is almost assuredly NOT in TC's best interest and without question not in salomon's best interest), these questions will never be satisfactorily answered.

i personally will withhold judgement (beyond the opinion i have of them that i gained through 9 years of working for them part-time up until winter 07/08) until this thing is resolved.

[skifishbum]

^^^ I can't speak for others but i'm kind of hoping that enough bad publicity
for soli or a desire to "do the right thing" will expidite the long legal proceedings get D some $$$ to get his life back on track. Like you said in that fucked up mount thread everybody makes mistakes it's how you handle them that matters and so far I think they are doing a pisspoor job of handling this from the first RA spam post here to the last "product update post" .
The day tc posts he is happy with whatever compensation is settled on I'll stop speaking ill of their company. Till then I'm going to suggest people not purchase their products to as many people as I can. Not because ,'aside from these boots, their products aren't good but because I don't like how they are handling their fuck up.
This thread is long enough so I'm not quoting it but I thought Hohes last post was spot on.

[Professor]

Marshal, dont believe everything you read. Sometimes a trial is exactly what it takes. And IF Salomon screwed up as bad as some believe, a trial could be what TC actually needs to have. Most of this information will come out in discovery and the attorneys and TC will weigh their options. However, I doubt the information will will ever be shared with us.

As for the above post, as I said originally, I fully respect peoples rights to boycott and raise awareness. I have not waivered from that belief.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

professor, correct me if i am wrong, but clearly the whole story on salomon's end has not come out:

was it ineffective or poorly designed testing? was there a fundamental change that happened AFTER testing that was not accounted for? was the failure caused by a materials choice or a design choice? what percentage of failure did the recall items show? what variability in materials and machining where there? was the part in question sourced to an external manufacturing partner? or made in-house? what hardening method was called for, was it done, and was it effective? was the toe block changed and the tech fittings not supported the way initially intended? how far from spec were the bindings in question?

I would add- Is there any way the most meager testing wouldn't have revealed that this product was dangerous? Is there any excuse for releasing a product this bad?

I understand why many folks might remain loyal to Salomon, despite this unfortunate event. 916's (and similar) have been very good for a long time. But I don't understand how any bit of withheld information can excuse or explain what has happened. No matter why it happened, no matter which layers of the corporate structure should be blamed for this failure, fury is a reasonable response. When a piece of safety equipment this bad is released, the community that uses such equipment should be up in arms. Manufacturers should be terrified of such a failure. Salomon clearly was not terrified enough.

[Hugh Conway]

Marshal, dont believe everything you read. Sometimes a trial is exactly what it takes. And IF Salomon screwed up as bad as some believe, a trial could be what TC actually needs to have. Most of this information will come out in discovery and the attorneys and TC will weigh their options. However, I doubt the information will will ever be shared with us.

As for the above post, as I said originally, I fully respect peoples rights to boycott and raise awareness. I have not waivered from that belief.

yeah! lawyering! that always produces the truth! Everyone knows that lawyers, judges and the courts are absolutely on the ball with technical matters. Err actual technical matters, not arcane legal bullshit

[marshalolson]

Is there any way the most meager testing wouldn't have revealed that this product was dangerous?

now that is the question, isn't it? maybe there is, their testing was totally flawed. still there fault, but alot different than a callous disregard for safety, or a lack of testing etc.

basically the question is where was the flaw, how could it have been prevented, and THEN how does that effect my decision to buy from them in the future.

at least my .02

[Hugh Conway]

still there fault, but alot different than a callous disregard for safety, or a lack of testing etc.

As a consumer of ski equipment, no, it's not.

[mc_roon]

is there any doubt in anyone's mind that Salomon released a product that was at fault here?

And IF Salomon screwed up as bad as some believe, a trial could be what TC actually needs to have.

No matter what the conclusion is as to HOW Salomon managed to release this product to the public, TC needs to be taken care of.

basically the question is where was the flaw, how could it have been prevented, and THEN how does that effect my decision to buy from them in the future.

at least my .02

mine too. good thing i have enough 916s already...

[wooley12]

Since $.02 seem to be welcome here I'll add mine. It's based on 10 years of working directly with Chinese factories on designs for some fairly technical sports bags.

First,

1- Salomon will eventually pay up. It' their fault
2- The culprit has already been identified internally and it's now in legal dept. hands. to investigate and defend
3- Boy, I wish we could see the factory drawings but doubt any outsiders ever will

Ooops, guests are here.............to be continued. "Design Communication and sample Manufacture" next.

[Professor]

^^ Mc Roon, I assume you arent saying that my quote questions whether or not Salomon screwed up. If that is what you are saying, please read the quote again. The question I have is how Salomon screwed up, not whether they did. But that question also determines whether I am willing to buy future Salomon products.

As for the other previous comments about the legal system from Hugh.... well everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, if this goes to court, I guarantee there will be experts that are much more qualified to look at this isssue than what we have already seen. Furthermore, all the issues that are discussed above about HOW Salomon screwed up are going to be extremely important in what options TC has at his disposal.

On that note, one more plea.... fix the damn title. As for the rest, I am done trying to explain that this issue is not simply "black and white", but I do truly wish the best for TC and am curious to see the end result of this matter.

[neck beard]

I think only a TGR mod can edit a title, not the thread starter.

[Professor]

I was simply referring to someone fixing it, rather than pointing fingers at any specific person for not fixing it. Bottom line, it will be a waste of information if it simply gets lost in cyberspace.

[toast2266]

If this thing goes to court, then that's a pretty clear sign that there is significant information we don't know. Salomon may have made a horrible product, but if their liability is as clear cut as it seems like it is, there's no way this would ever go all the way to trial.

Also, just because Salomon has yet to pay out a large settlement amount to TC doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to bend him over. With an injury as severe as his, it can take quite a while before the full extent of the injury is known and the future medical costs can be accurately calculated. Sometimes it can take years to fully determine those costs (although I would hope that Salomon is picking up the medical bills in the meantime). I have no idea what the negotiations or discussions between TC and Salomon are / have been, but there are lots of factors involved. Not trying to stick up for Salomon here; they might be acting like total assholes and screwing TC over for all I know. However, there are all kinds of good reasons to reserve judgment.

[Hugh Conway]

However, if this goes to court, I guarantee there will be experts that are much more qualified to look at this isssue than what we have already seen.

Only a lawyer would say that - I mean, geh, we've all seen high quality legal experts appear and know they all are fantastic.

But, hey, that's the kind of stupidity we've expected from the mealy mouthed overpaid dipshits in the American legal system. At least they buy overpriced ski gear and experiences

As for the title - go fuck yourself "Professor"

[mc_roon]

^^ Mc Roon, I assume you arent saying that my quote questions whether or not Salomon screwed up. If that is what you are saying, please read the quote again. The question I have is how Salomon screwed up, not whether they did. But that question also determines whether I am willing to buy future Salomon products.

sorry, bad phrasing on my part, edited for clarity.

i agree with you that people's long term opinion of Salomon needs to take into account how they fucked up, not just that they did. shades of grey...

that said, Salomon needs to take care of TC, and that is black and white. From everything on here and Lou Dawson's "test" I am 100% convinced that they released a product that caused his injuries. If they somehow manage to skirt their responsibility to TC they will never get a dime from me EVER and i will do everything in my power to turn others away from their products.

[Patches]

You don't need legal experts to tell you that Salomon inserts is flimsy and improperly cast into the boot. If your jury had Richard Simmons, Adam Lampert, Brittney Spears, Rainman, and Karen Carpenter you still wouldn't need an expert. Its clear as day.

Anyone know where the toe blocks were made?

[ex-powderbroker]

However, if this goes to court, I guarantee there will be experts that are much more qualified to look at this isssue than what we have already seen.

The only thing I expect the "experts" in the courtroom to do is assign an accurate if not generous number to the compensation package. Your comment reminds of the end of Raiders when the government takes possession of the ark from Indy.



Guess we don't have to rabblerouse anymore now that we know that top experts will be on the scene shortly!

I have reserved picking apart your posts, because I think that the information in this thread drowns out your voice because the design of the toe blocks is defective enough for most people to look at it and say, "what a fucking joke" and question the company or a little upset, and that's what has happened here.

I also continue to hope things work out for TC.

Like, not being dead from his shitty Salomon Quest skiboots?

Personally, I will reserve judgement on whether you are actually a sollie distributor for another few posts. Otherwise, go fuck yourself.

[ACH]

With an injury as severe as his, it can take quite a while before the full extent of the injury is known and the future medical costs can be accurately calculated. Sometimes it can take years to fully determine those costs.

Quoted for truth.
I can think of many people that I have known that were involved in some sort of car related accident, where another was at fault, that produced injuries that resulted in years of medical bills, with a final settlement coming way down the line. The tough part there is that there is a balance of holding out for all you are due long term vs. the mounting medical bills that are due in the short term.

[Beyond]

The question I have is how Salomon screwed up, not whether they did. But that question also determines whether I am willing to buy future Salomon products.

You will never have your question answered. To think that this will "come to trial," and all the relevant information will magically be revealed is naive. What will happen in a few more years is that TC will receive a settlement in return for some non-disclosure boilerplate. Salomon will never have to disclose much of anything. So you will still have to make your decision based on the same partial knowledge that most else here have. And odds are, based on your argument, you will continue to buy Salomon products because you've already specified a premise to that conclusion; you won't have enough information to justify NOT buying.

Quoted for truth.
I can think of many people that I have known that were involved in some sort of car related accident, where another was at fault, that produced injuries that resulted in years of medical bills, with a final settlement coming way down the line. The tough part there is that there is a balance of holding out for all you are due long term vs. the mounting medical bills that are due in the short term.

I suffered a serious concussion two years ago in an accident caused by a drunk driver. His insurance company took responsibility immediately. They would have been happy to settle right away. (Cheaper that way.) However, the medical issues were/are still in play, and my lawyer is still recommending we wait until a time when those issues are resolved. So the negotiations go on. Same will happen for TC....

[skisurfmirth]

Salomon isn't reengineering the faulty toeblocks for this season. Looks like i'm back in garmonts again (and safe!)

[altis]

Anyone know where the toe blocks were made?

Romania, apparently:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml10/10285.html