Salomon Quest Tech inserts failure thread

[laseranimal]

As someone who has used Dynafit bindings and Dynafit fittings for the last few years the lack of a norm is the reason for the failure is complete bullshit

Dynafit has been making inserts for HOW many years and to my knowledge there has NEVER been a failure of the insert like with the Quest blocks. The fact that Lou could destroy a salmon quest with an ANSI prybar means that no matter how many glowing Rick Armstrong advertorial reviews I read I can tell that THE BOOT WAS NOT PROPERLY TESTED. It was put on the market for people like Dalton to "beta" test and we see the results.

Salomon cheaped out on the fittings to save some money by not having to pay Dynafit licensing fees for the inserts and in the process put their customers in danger. The fact that they're hiding behind their lawyers instead of stepping up and admitting they fucked up is BEYOND wrong

[XXX-er]

the patent expired in the last 3-4 yrs ,we are at the beginning of the low tech binding being made by companies other than dynafit , G3 ,I think some rando racing type small companies and probably Trab

I agree the boot should have been better tested and you don't need to be an engineer to see the fitting looks weak ,you don't think having a standard (like DIN )would have prevented this situation ?

[laseranimal]

^

In response to the standard argument, look at all the problems that tele bindings had with both the 75mm "standard" and NTN. Atomic had to recall a shit-ton of bindings that met and were designed for DIN "standard" I have no doubt that the Salomon Quest would have met the Low-Tech "standard" for compatibility, had they not met "standard" they wouldn't have fit into dynafit bindings.


The problem isn't that the Salomon Quest failed because it was too big, too small, or somehow incapable of fitting within the unofficial "Norm" for Dynafit bindings. The Salomon Quest fitting failed because it was a design afterthought and then it was shoddily engineered. There's no way I can believe that there was ANY significant amount of Dynafit-Salomon Quest Insert product testing, because this flaw WOULD have shown up if there was.

A poorly engineered pile of dog shit that meets a binding "norm" is STILL a poorly engineered pile of dog shit

[ACH]

^^^
Agree.
Forget about standards or lack there of. This product seriously came off the rails in the development process. Whether it was rushed to market by an overzealous marking manager, or was a victim of poor internal communication or gross incompetence, steps were skipped in bench/lab testing that would have uncovered flaws in the design well before it reached the hands of unsuspecting consumers. Had a variety of proper static load tests been performed it's entirely possible this iteration would never have made it to the field. Makes me wonder if they even performed a perfunctory finite element analysis prior to opening molds.

[weasel1]

While I couldn't agree more that this failure could easily have been prevented with some modicum of testing, and that Salomon should bear full responsibility for this, I also think that the notion that Salomon is "hiding behind" its lawyers and that it should admit it was wrong is, unfortunately, sadly naive. Show me a single corporation that has done such a thing in the face of a product liability suit. No corporate counsel would allow such a response. This is simply not a realistic resolution. Unfortunately, it is going to have to work its way through the process and, frankly, that may ultimately be a good thing in some ways. Far too often, settlements are rushed into before anyone really understands the full impact of the injury in the long term, and the plaintiff ends up with far less than they actually need. Unfortunately, this will mean a tough time for TC in the near term, so the support of this community is important.

I fully support keeping up the pressure on Salomon on this, while also understanding that Salomon's decisions in this case will have little to nothing to do with the sentiment of its customer service folks. This means that personal attacks on Salomon staff who respond here are out of line. I have worked with many of them, and know them to be decent people who are now stuck in a tough place between feeling for TC and being hogtied by the necessities of corporate policy. There is nothing simple about a situation like this, at least in this country, no matter how much we wish it were otherwise.

TC, we're here, we will continue to be here. Let us know what you need and it will happen.

[XXX-er]

With NTN they were literaly reinventing the wheel so that engineering was not actualy done at the time to where you could say it works(which is still arguable ) while we know dynafit works

yeah Soly put the sockets in the right place but that was about all they did right , whoever made the Soly plate put extra holes in stupid places and there is a ridge on a real dynafit fitting that is missing from the salomon that would have added stiffness and who knows if the materilais the correct metal & the correct hardness

If a designer could have just called up a " DIN like " standard it would have been a better thing IMO


has anyone actualy written a real e-mail to salomon (which would take 5 minutes) telling them you are upset with what has gone on OR did you just post some things on a silly social media site ?

[Patches]

If a designer could have just called up a " DIN like " standard it would have been a better thing IMO

A standard would spec the size and taper of the holes and hardness of the socket material. Any strength standard about how much torque the boot would have to sustain without failing would be cut-and-pasted from the DIN standard.

So Solly still fails.

[SeatownSlackey]

While I couldn't agree more that this failure could easily have been prevented with some modicum of testing, and that Salomon should bear full responsibility for this, I also think that the notion that Salomon is "hiding behind" its lawyers and that it should admit it was wrong is, unfortunately, sadly naive. Show me a single corporation that has done such a thing in the face of a product liability suit. No corporate counsel would allow such a response. This is simply not a realistic resolution. Unfortunately, it is going to have to work its way through the process and, frankly, that may ultimately be a good thing in some ways. Far too often, settlements are rushed into before anyone really understands the full impact of the injury in the long term, and the plaintiff ends up with far less than they actually need. Unfortunately, this will mean a tough time for TC in the near term, so the support of this community is important.

I fully support keeping up the pressure on Salomon on this, while also understanding that Salomon's decisions in this case will have little to nothing to do with the sentiment of its customer service folks. This means that personal attacks on Salomon staff who respond here are out of line. I have worked with many of them, and know them to be decent people who are now stuck in a tough place between feeling for TC and being hogtied by the necessities of corporate policy. There is nothing simple about a situation like this, at least in this country, no matter how much we wish it were otherwise.

TC, we're here, we will continue to be here. Let us know what you need and it will happen.

well said.

But this is TGR and there is little to no chance of getting the mob to turn down the level of vitriol until there is some sort of satisfaction. I do think a majority of people here realize at least part of what you are trying to say but for the most part, they aren't the ones posting in this thread.

Also, you have to admit that if you were one of TC's close friends or especially if you were one of the guys who were there, you too would be using every opportunity to vent frustration over the whole situation. It may not be entirely fair to the sally peeps on the receiving end but they should be able to empathize with where the anger is coming from.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I just want to reiterate that this was a dangerous, half-assed product, and should be a great source of shame for Salomon and its employees. If you work for Salomon I would be happy to ski with you, but, professionally speaking, you and yours can shove the legal process deep into your ass and eat dick.

[corn dog]

Up until last year or so there had only ever been one kind of dynafit toe insert piece manufactured. To complain that they fucked this up because there wasn't a standard is absurd.

[weasel1]

well said.

But this is TGR and there is little to no chance of getting the mob to turn down the level of vitriol until there is some sort of satisfaction. I do think a majority of people here realize at least part of what you are trying to say but for the most part, they aren't the ones posting in this thread.

I understand and share the sentiment, but I wonder if we wouldn't be more effective with a more rational, but still just as passionate, response.

Also, you have to admit that if you were one of TC's close friends or especially if you were one of the guys who were there, you too would be using every opportunity to vent frustration over the whole situation. It may not be entirely fair to the sally peeps on the receiving end but they should be able to empathize with where the anger is coming from.

Agreed. There is a way, however, to express PROFOUND anger and dissatisfaction in a way that doesn't involve name-calling. Be furious at Salomon, yes, but engage the US staff to get them to work with us, don't alienate them. Ultimately, the people most responsible are the execs and product engineers, all likely in Europe.

TC's leg is fucked...I live nearby, and have seen how this is affecting him and his family. While I can't pretend to know all the details, I have seen enough to be pissed about this too. He is rugged, and will make the best of this, but this is a major injury that will affect him forever.

Here's my sense of it....Mags are core end users in this industry, as well as industry insiders. Mags can wield influence, even if our pocketbooks are only so deep. That influence matters, and is an effective tool if wielded properly. I am just not sure that "fuck you AMER" is wielding our collective power in the most effective way possible. Just my $.02, but what do I know?

[COUTCA]

well said.

But this is TGR and there is little to no chance of getting the mob to turn down the level of vitriol until there is some sort of satisfaction. I do think a majority of people here realize at least part of what you are trying to say but for the most part, they aren't the ones posting in this thread.

Also, you have to admit that if you were one of TC's close friends or especially if you were one of the guys who were there, you too would be using every opportunity to vent frustration over the whole situation. It may not be entirely fair to the sally peeps on the receiving end but they should be able to empathize with where the anger is coming from.

X2. This is well said, and worth quoting.

[Jonathan S.]

I'm not going to blame Salomon for abstaining from any sort of admission of fault in the midst of a lawsuit -- that's entirely understandable.
But this is utterly disgraceful:

Thus far, with no existing norm, we are not able to provide a 100% reliable solution for our boots/soles for low-tech style bindings.

No existing norm? How about, the "Tech" interface should not deform to the point of failure while skinning in an AMGA exam . . . or, the interface should not deform to the point of failure during its second outing while skiing on moderate terrain . . . an official "norm" needs to exist for Salomon to figure this out?
Meanwhile, the competition is certainly taking advantage of this -- check out the fifth picture here:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...ski-gear/prime
And in case you're thinking that's just an afterthought, that picture constitutes the entire back cover of the latest Backcountry magazine.
(Yes, that means BD took out a full-page ad featuring a competitor's ski binding.)
Plus this past spring (only two weeks after TC put his trust in Salomon, as we all would have back then), Garmont was showing off its testing:
http://www.wildsnow.com/2936/garmont...nafit-inserts/

[thin cover]

Posting to thank everyone again for all the help I have been getting in every way you can imagine. The generosity has been inspiring and humbling at the same time. The people here are the most selfless and gracious crew I could hope to know and I am looking to definitely paying it forward some day...

[weasel1]

I'm not going to blame Salomon for abstaining from any sort of admission of fault in the midst of a lawsuit -- that's entirely understandable.
But this is utterly disgraceful:

No existing norm? How about, the "Tech" interface should not deform to the point of failure while skinning in an AMGA exam . . . or, the interface should not deform to the point of failure during its second outing while skiing on moderate terrain . . . an official "norm" needs to exist for Salomon to figure this out?
Meanwhile, the competition is certainly taking advantage of this -- check out the fifth picture here:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com...ski-gear/prime
And in case you're thinking that's just an afterthought, that picture constitutes the entire back cover of the latest Backcountry magazine.
(Yes, that means BD took out a full-page ad featuring a competitor's ski binding.)
Plus this past spring (only two weeks after TC put his trust in Salomon, as we all would have back then), Garmont was showing off its testing:
http://www.wildsnow.com/2936/garmont...nafit-inserts/

This is exactly what I mean. That competitors see an advantage in marketing the rigorousness of their testing is a testament to what has already been achieved by the attention brought to this issue. The more we work to keep this issue from fading away, the more pressure we put on Salomon to resolve this properly. Letters to magazines, the influence of retailers, anything we can do to keep this issue in the forefront is how we can best help get this resolved, and prevent it from happening again. We are paying attention, and will support companies who pay attention to proper development and testing.

[Hugh Conway]

I fully support keeping up the pressure on Salomon on this, while also understanding that Salomon's decisions in this case will have little to nothing to do with the sentiment of its customer service folks. This means that personal attacks on Salomon staff who respond here are out of line. I have worked with many of them, and know them to be decent people who are now stuck in a tough place between feeling for TC and being hogtied by the necessities of corporate policy. There is nothing simple about a situation like this, at least in this country, no matter how much we wish it were otherwise.

The flipside of the TGR lynchmob - the TGR don't harm my industry bros bandwagon

We already established that the designers are cool dudes guess the PR geniuses are cool too So we can get back to everyone fucking up, nobody accepting responsibility, and the only people profiting being the lawyers

[neck beard]

...and the only people profiting being the lawyers

Along with all other respected brand boot makers that can manage to make/license a quality touring tech insert that is stronger than aluminum foil.

Salomon have isolated themselves as failures in this regard. They failed big time for not caring to do design it correctly nor to tested it at all.

They then failed again when they tried to do it right (from Salomon "...we are not able to provide a 100% reliable solution for our boots/soles for low-tech style bindings. At this point, we will not be releasing any low-tech touring boots/soles this fall").

No one else seems to have this problem. But at least no one else will get very seriously injured.

Though if I were them, even if I could design a reliable tech insert, I wouldn't release it this season anyway. With all the confusion and bad news getting around in backcountry circles, Salomon would have to spend money on disambiguation marketing along the lines of "this tech insert is totally safe". Which would remind everyone of the last insert which was totally unsafe. It isn't an association you want with your brand. So they will probably just let it rest for a while and then sell a load of them in 2011/12.

TC - I can't use PayPal because I do not have a Japanese credit card to fund the account with. I'd pay for your next PT session if I could.

[thin cover]

^^^^^ no need seriously, thanks for thinking of me. I am not in dire straits just yet, but crappy unemployment and ripping through savings is getting old and I think some campaigning friends know that soon it will be an issue. Especially when the PT goes to $200 a visit, I'll hit you up for some yen then

[Patches]

This is exactly what I mean. That competitors see an advantage in marketing the rigorousness of their testing is a testament to what has already been achieved by the attention brought to this issue. The more we work to keep this issue from fading away, the more pressure we put on Salomon to resolve this properly. Letters to magazines, the influence of retailers, anything we can do to keep this issue in the forefront is how we can best help get this resolved, and prevent it from happening again. We are paying attention, and will support companies who pay attention to proper development and testing.

You can write letters to the editor. My contribution is to write things like:

I hope Salomon's execs and lawyers go to jail and receive repeated dry anal gang rapings until their assholes are stretched out big enough for skidoos to do u-turns inside.

That's the kind of funneh that keeps the people coming back for more.

[weasel1]

Well, we do what we can, right? ;-)

[weasel1]

The flipside of the TGR lynchmob - the TGR don't harm my industry bros bandwagon

We already established that the designers are cool dudes guess the PR geniuses are cool too So we can get back to everyone fucking up, nobody accepting responsibility, and the only people profiting being the lawyers

Yeah... you could put it that way, except it's wrong, simple-minded, and shows you weren't paying attention to what I said. I never said they shouldn't take responsibility...they should. EVERYONE at Salomon should accept the company's collective failure to protect their customers. I am saying that just because they bear a responsibility as a company, that doesn't mean they all don't give a shit about what happened and deserve to be attacked on this board.

Of course, maybe the nuances of a situation like this are lost on you...fair enough. You can go on flaming if you like....I hope it helps.

Oh, and to be clear, I have no relationship with Salomon currently, nor with anyone there. It has been several years since I was in the industry, and even then I had no particular affiliation with Salomon except as a retailer. If the company folded tomorrow, it would have no impact on me or anyone I care about, except maybe to put a potential settlement for TC at risk. But go ahead and make assumptions that are patently unfounded if you want, at least it makes for more entertaining reading.

[DoWork]

Here's my sense of it....Mags are core end users in this industry, as well as industry insiders. Mags can wield influence, even if our pocketbooks are only so deep. That influence matters, and is an effective tool if wielded properly. I am just not sure that "fuck you AMER" is wielding our collective power in the most effective way possible. Just my $.02, but what do I know?

I understand your sentiment and stance on the issue and in many ways I agree, however I think you're looking past several key issues here and it's why Salomn is dead to me at this point, regardless of how they remedy their Low Tech interfaces in the future. I'm going to point them out to you individually so you know exactly what I'm saying.

1). This boot failed in testing and still it went on to be a full production item, obviously without any strengthening/redesign of the LT interface system, which would be expected in any modern Quality Controlled environment.

2). Salomon marketing hype tells everyone this is a bomb-proof super-gnar boot that is the best of the best, a hardcore BC skier's wet dream, capable of tackling any terrain when in actuality it was about as durable as a wet napkin. Ok, maybe moreso than that, but only enough to get you to a dangerous place before it shit the bed at the worst possible time.

3). After TC's accident we were told BY SALOMON that they were pre-production boots and there were 13 pairs in North America. This was a flat-out lie, as there were 250+ pairs and it was indeed a full pruduction boot. But the guy who told us that was nice, so maybe we shouldn't pin them to the wall, right?

3). If it weren't for input from people like TC blowing the whistle and Lou Dawson doing THE SIMPLEST BENCH TESTING EVER, how many of these boots would still be out there like land mines, waiting for an unsuspecting skier to buckle in and take a death tumble. We don't know. Salomon only issued the recall when the internets had already done it for them. They just made it easy to send them back.

4). Salomon is an international company decades away from its first rodeo that has both the funds, the knowhow and the duty to make sure a new product is what they say it is before they sell it. To hide behind the notion that they had no standard to go by is another bullshit geyser. Dynafit made the things how long ago with no standard and they hold up fine! To use this as an excuse is another insult to our intelligence.

5). Overall, I think their laziness, lack of attention on every single level possible to important details and even dishonesty about every concievable detail so far have shown me enough about Salomon's corporate/legal/R&D/marketing policy and how they view their duties to skiers for me to make an educated and well-thought-out decision about who I want to support with what little money I do have. I can tell you with no reservations that I will never own a Salomn product as long as I live, and will continue to discourage others from doing so as well.

That's right. Fuck Salomon- in an articluate, thought-out and informed manner. Twice. Of course Salomon's going to put a nice guy on the job to quell the flames, that's his job to put his name in the fray and take the heat and cool us down. So we're supposed to say "Meh, this Nick guy's a classy dude, let's just kick our feet up and mix a mai tai until this blows over and Salomon gives us all carefully-written hadjobs"" isn't flying with me. Sometimes people need to know how angry you are and right now I'm ALL CAPS ANGRY WITH SALOMON. Not that I would expect it from them, but man after a fuckup like that maybe the CEO should show up at Dalt's door and say "Hey, we're fuckstains and we screwed you over royally for trusting us, so I'm here with the surgical team that fixed the Herminator and a whole team of PT specialists to do everything we can to help you get back on your feet, we can worry about lawyers after you're walking." But no. That is a fantasy. We get to try to help TC in what small ways we can as he struggles with the financial, physical and emotional ambiguity of his athletic future while we get to watch the lawyer mambo, which may be a function of modern corporate culture but it's Still. Fucking. Bullshit. I know where I stand, and I would appreciate it if you stop inferring that it's wrong to form this judgement at this point in time. I've seen everything I need to see.

[/blograntwhatever]

[laseranimal]

^

Seconded

I've run solly bindings forever and there's no way I'd EVER put a new pair of salomon bindings anywhere NEAR my skis


Just browsing around the web it makes me sick to my stomach when I see the Quest boots. I'm going to make a point of linking to this thread in any review I see at BC.com EVO, or any other e-site.

Honestly if they fucked up the engineering of the crucial piece of the Dynafit interface, who's to say there isn't ANOTHER ticking time bomb in the Salomon Quest boot

[Beyond]

Do Work's argument ^^^ is about as clearly stated as it gets, but folks need to realize that it's directed (correctly IMO) at Salomon as a culture that thinks "half ass is good enough," not at Salomon as a corporate bureaucracy that issues stocks.

The "don't blame the individual XXX, it's their company" stance on this thread ignores the structure of any bureaucracy. There's never any node of responsibility. No one, or group, is responsible for more than executing the local task given them from another group. That's why it's so infuriating (but true) when some supervisor on the phone says, "Well, that's just the company's policy," or "I have no control over that, the computer does it." It doesn't help to yell at them. If the company screws up badly enough to affect shareholder value, the CEO or president is expected to fall on his/her sword. Otherwise, good luck finding where to point the finger.

But corporations also have cultures. These set ranges of acceptable behavior, expectations about what happens when a mistake happens, senses of what's a threshold for product reliability, and how much the bosses cares about bottom line versus quality. Cultures change over time (see Toyota). And it's Salomon's corporate culture that's messed up.

So IMO it's equally appropriate to roast any member of that culture, because every employee carries it, just like Canadians on this forum all carry a clear working knowledge (and participation in) Canadian culture. Hopefully, the message will defuse to other sectors of the company.

OTOH, if you want to teak the corporation enough to affect their culture from the outside, (and get their suits to settle with TC )start a very public boycott. Think Facebook/Twitter here. Refuse to buy or use ANY product made by Salomon. However painful that may be to you. And let them (Salomon's holding company as well as Salomon) know it, by email or letter, not just on this thread.

Cuz they know that it takes a lot more effort to do that than to vent here. They pay attention to effort. And nascent consumer boycotts...

[weasel1]

DoWork's response is exactly right. I didn't disagree with any of that sentiment, nor do I advocate being "nice". Being aggressive about expressing our discontent and holding the company absolutely accountable doesn't require being childishly hostile (which you clearly are not, DoWork). If you think I am suggesting we be "nice" you missed my point entirely.

Maybe everyone did, so either I am a shitty communicator, or people don't care to think carefully or rationally on the internet. Fair enough, I'll let it be. And I am still 200% behind TC and his efforts to exact real and serious redress from Salomon. I hope heads do roll. TC, you have my number if you need anything, you know where I am.