TR. When everything goest to shit.

[whatcomridaz]

I just came across this - pictures of avalanches in Shuksan Arm. Windslabs in N faces too after a storm - bluebird day. It scares the hell out of me

http://blog.garrettgrove.com/2010/04...rm-avalanches/

This picture makes me shit my pants actually

Lee, these were basically set on purpose, you had to be a complete moran to be out on the arm that day/afternoon. 50+ inches of fresh, high winds, temp well above freezing by 11, and massive Sun exposure.

[powder11]

Lee, these were basically set on purpose, you had to be a complete moran to be out on the arm that day/afternoon. 50+ inches of fresh, high winds, temp well above freezing by 11, and massive Sun exposure.

gee, I'm bored today. I think I'll go set off some class 2's on the arm so buddy can take my picture for the internet and then maybe we'll play a round of Russian Roulette for apres

[XXX-er]

Shock is a motherfucker. This summer I was windsurfing, hit a port ramp and got about 14' of air, then a gust hit and blew my board off me. I let go of the rig, it flipped upside down, and I impaled myself on the fin as I fell.

I managed to waterstart, and sail all the way in, carry my rig up to our shop's shed, then sit in a chair while I called my dad to take me to the hospital. All I remember was looking down at all the blood, and feeling like that might be it...and freezing my ass off in 90 degree sunshine. Fucking awful feeling.

yeah the reason I shared my experiance is that I was amazed at how FAST shock came on and how I felt ,I don't remember if my busted tib/fib hurt but the shock and the instant cold I DO remember

I have often wondered if this happens out in the BC what happens to your body what would it have been like to be going into shock,in cold weather maybe being out over night ??

for any medical types to answer, are you just gona be really uncomfortable or what??

Now I always carry a down jacket in the BC

[Skis4Fun]

FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) and ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

In the interests of helping us learn, will each of you (Lee, Richard, Phil) answer the FACETS & ALP TRUTh checklist questions with Yes or No (if appropriate feel free to add additional text to your Yes or No answers)? Also, what would you do differently?



a) FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon)

Was your decision making influenced by:

F: Familiarity (Yes or No)

A: Acceptance (Yes or No)

C: Commitment/Consistency (Yes or No)

E: Expert halo (Yes or No)

T: Tracks/Scarcity (Yes or No)

S: Social Facilitation (Yes or No)



b) ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

Did you observe:

A: Avalanches (Yes or No)

L: Loading (Yes or No)

P: Path (Yes or No)

T: Terrain Trap (Yes or No)

R: Rating (Yes or No)

U: Unstable Snow (Yes or No)

Th: Thaw Instability (Yes or No)



c) What would you do differently?

Also any plans for additional avalanche education (Canadian Avalanche Skills Training (AST) Level 1, Canadian AST Level 2, reread specific books or articles, regularly read magazines like The Avalanche Review and/or Avalanche.ca Journal, review the online avalanche course from the Canadian Avalanche Association www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/overview, etc.);

additional medical training (Basic Wilderness First Aid, Advanced Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness First Responder, Wilderness EMT, Wilderness Practitioner, Outdoor Emergency Care Technician, etc.);

and/or additional equipment (satellite phone, VHF radio, helmet, avalung, avalanche air bag, specific medical / other survival items, etc.)?





FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) http://www.mec.ca/Main/content_text....34374302881868 http://avalancheinfo.net/Newsletters...mmonHTraps.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

F: Familiarity
“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it. An avalanche does not care that you are a local.

A: Acceptance
Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.

C: Commitment/Consistency
“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal. We mistakenly simplify our decisions by only choosing to believe only what supports with our commitment and ignoring new information that is inconsistent. No avalanche cares about your preferences.

E: Expert halo
The person who takes the lead might not always know best. Sometimes the expert is just the person who knows the route or has the strongest personality. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too. As Andre Roch said "The avalanche does not know that you are an expert".

T: Tracks/Scarcity
Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

S: Social Facilitation
This is the herding instinct or groupthink. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.” Selectively be the devil's advocate to avoid groupthink and to stimulate discussion.



ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon). An alternate mnemonic closer to the order likely to be encountered on a tour is Crazy Ava’s Unstable Patter Traps Local Thugs (Considerable, Avalanches, Unstable snow, Path, Traps, Loading, Thaw). Obvious Clues Method p.8-9 http://www.avalanche.org/~aaap/archi...25_2_LoRes.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

A: Avalanches
Are there signs of avalanche activity in the area within the last 48 hours?

L: Loading
Was there loading by snow, wind or rain in the area within the last 48 hours?

P: Path
Are you in an avalanche path or starting zone?

T: Terrain Trap
Are there gullies, trees or cliffs that would increase the consequences of being caught?

R: Rating
Is the danger rating considerable or higher?

U: Unstable Snow
Are there signs of unstable snow, such as whumpfing, cracking or hollow sounds?

Th: Thaw Instability
Has there been recent significant melting of the snow surface by sun, rain or warm air?


Total yes answers. 0-2 normal caution, 3-4 extra caution, 5-7 not recommended.

[BFD]

don't leave home without them

[powdork]

don't leave home without them

for weight to benefit ratio i gotta agree. i always have them cuz my hands get cold, though i never use them for that. i throw them in my socks when i sleep on cold overnighters. bc in cold areas i throw one in my camelbak hose sleeve and one for the camera. never considered their first aid possibilities but it sounds like a nobrainer for a prone shock victim. they claim to last like 3-4 hours, but in my experience they last much longer, nearly twice that.

edit-oops, looking at the picture those claim to last 7+ hours. hmmm.

[Slaag Master]

just my 2 cents: you guys worked as a team to make sure everyone got out alive. that is the bottom line to me. i dont care what may have caused things to go bad - it does not matter once they have gone bad. at that point all blame and guilt need to be forgotten so that all life is preserved. once you are all back home and mending there will be plenty of time to go over your actions. but even then nothing will ever change what did happen. once again i feel honored and proud to belong to this blessed tribe of mountain riders. we take our risks for our passions and sometimes we pay the cost. it has always been my saying : i want to ski till i die but i dont want to die skiing. having said that i must admit to skiing, inbounds at the bird, in situations where serious injury or death may occur if i fall. ok, no fall skiing. however i will not stop this activity, at age 52, anytime soon since it is so much a part of my soul quest for happiness and meaning in life. LeeLau and the others: keep feeding your souls and thank you for sharing an incident what would have been easier to keep private.

[Meadow Skipper]

I just want to thank the people here for an interesting and thought-provoking discussion. And to say I'm glad it all turned out all right.

[garyfromterrace]

FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) and ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

In the interests of helping us learn, will each of you (Lee, Richard, Phil) answer the FACETS & ALP TRUTh checklist questions with Yes or No (if appropriate feel free to add additional text to your Yes or No answers)? Also, what would you do differently?



a) FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon)

Was your decision making influenced by:

F: Familiar Terrain (Yes or No)

A: Acceptance (Yes or No)

C: Commitment (Yes or No)

E: Expert halo (Yes or No)

T: Tracks (Yes or No)

S: Social Proof (Yes or No)



b) ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

Did you observe:

A: Avalanches (Yes or No)

L: Loading (Yes or No)

P: Path (Yes or No)

T: Terrain Trap (Yes or No)

R: Rating (Yes or No)

U: Unstable Snow (Yes or No)

Th: Thawing (Yes or No)



c) What would you do differently? Also any additional avalanche education planned (Canadian Avalanche Skills Training (AST) Level 1, Canadian AST Level 2, etc.), any additional medical training (Basic Wilderness First Aid, Advanced Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness First Responder, Wilderness EMT, Wilderness Practitioner, Outdoor Emergency Care Technician, etc.), additional equipment (satellite phone, VHF radio, helmet, avalung, avalanche air bag, specific medical / other survival items, etc.)?





FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon)

F: Familiar Terrain
“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it.

A: Acceptance
Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.

C: Commitment
“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal.

E: Expert halo
The person who takes the lead might not always know best. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too.

T: Tracks
Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

S: Social Proof
This is the herding instinct or group-think. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.”



ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon). An alternate mnemonic closer to order likely to be encountered on a tour is Crazy Ava’s Unstable Patter Traps Local Thugs (Considerable, Avalanches, Unstable snow, Path, Traps, Loading, Thaw).

A: Avalanches
Look for avalanche activity in the last 48 hours. Notice the aspects, elevations, and size. Avoid similar slopes.

L: Loading
Look for loading of new or wind-blown snow that has occurred over the last 48 hours.

P: Path
Are you in an obvious avalanche path?

T: Terrain Trap
Are you in a terrain trap like a gully or underneath a steep slope? If an avalanche were to occur, would you get carried into a gully, into trees, or off a cliff?

R: Rating
Is the avalanche rating considerable (natural avalanches are possible and human triggered avalanche likely) or higher?

U: Unstable Snow
Listen for whoomphing sounds and look for cracking, which are tell-tale signs of unstable snow.

Th: Thawing
Has there been a rapid rise in temperature or a prolonged thaw of the snowpack?

This is good shit, thanks.

SlaagMaster - fkna!

[whatcomridaz]

gee, I'm bored today. I think I'll go set off some class 2's on the arm so buddy can take my picture for the internet and then maybe we'll play a round of Russian Roulette for apres

When you watch the lower half of the waterfall slide and still the lemmings march on to take lines other then safety valley, yes I have to believe it was on purpose.

[LeeLau]

Coag is CELOX?

I just looked and confirmed its CELOX. I have these small 2g packets and found a place you can buy them here

Reading this thread has been a bit like seeing someone going through the five stages of grief (though not the denial part). It's good to share your experience and go through the assessment. I wonder what you'll think of this event in a year's time.

I hope in a years time i look back at this and if I'm getting complacent that I give myself a good hard kick in the ass. Or Sharon does that for me.

and back to the "there is no helicopter" scenario. what could/should be done for either had they shown marked symptoms of shock (snow cave and rest vs keep them moving, drugs, etc)? and for lee, would symptoms of shock be distinguishable from symptoms of the more severe lung injuries he could have sustained?

powdork - the chest injury component of the first aid course I took was pretty short so I looked back at my notes and the textbook. Of course coughing blood made me think ribs or lung. But I had so much overall pain but without point tenderness or pain, no bubbling or wheezing in breath; all signs of chest/lung issues. I was aware that i had so much adrenaline and overall pain that I couldn't assess myself very well so all i wanted to do was mention the coughing blood over the radio (i assumed correctly that info would get relayed to responders). There's way to treat the tension pneumothorax but that requires a syringe with one way valve and its not a practical field alternative so that's all theoretical.

It kind of leads to what skiingnow said in that all i could really do was lessen the time to get from the field situation to a treatment facility - which is where the radio/cell-phone/sat-phone/PLB comes in handy.

add a sleeping pad. prone victim will get cold asap in the snow; if you are spending a night out it'll help as well.

In my pack I have a foamie and also a sam splint. I can take that pad out and sit on it when stopping for a break. The sam splint is a bit of back brace too in case i take an impact. Obviously has a first aid use

don't leave home without them

Yes! I have some packages in a utility little bag that stays in the pack - also with headlamp, multitool and some batteries

[LeeLau]

Here's responses with answers in CAPS

FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) and ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

In the interests of helping us learn, will each of you (Lee, Richard, Phil) answer the FACETS & ALP TRUTh checklist questions with Yes or No (if appropriate feel free to add additional text to your Yes or No answers)? Also, what would you do differently?



a) FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) - MORE ON THAT HERE

Was your decision making influenced by:

F: Familiar Terrain (Yes or No) YES

A: Acceptance (Yes or No) NO

C: Commitment (Yes or No) NO

E: Expert halo (Yes or No) YES

T: Tracks (Yes or No) NO

S: Social Proof (Yes or No) NO



b) ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon) - MORE HERE

Did you observe:

A: Avalanches (Yes or No) NO

L: Loading (Yes or No) YES

P: Path (Yes or No) NO

T: Terrain Trap (Yes or No) YES

R: Rating (Yes or No) YES

U: Unstable Snow (Yes or No) NO

Th: Thaw Instability (Yes or No) YES



c) What would you do differently?

- Pay more attention to cliffs (even though my intended route avoided the cliffs the potential slide path and slide took us both over the cliffs
- Pay more attention to windloading ESPECIALLY when winds reverse from usual direction
- Pay more attention to party complacency - especially wrt to rule of one-at-a-time
- Don't split the party even if its just for a short period of time.


Also any plans for additional avalanche education (Canadian Avalanche Skills Training (AST) Level 1, Canadian AST Level 2, reread specific books or articles, regularly read magazines like The Avalanche Review and/or Avalanche.ca Journal, review the online avalanche course from the Canadian Avalanche Association www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/overview, etc.);

Already have AST 2. I have the book learning and the field-time. I just have to actually pay more attention & avoid complacency.


additional medical training (Basic Wilderness First Aid, Advanced Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness First Responder, Wilderness EMT, Wilderness Practitioner, Outdoor Emergency Care Technician, etc.);

I have Advanced WFA and reviewed materials a month ago. No plans to take extra.

and/or additional equipment (satellite phone, VHF radio, helmet, avalung, avalanche air bag, specific medical / other survival items, etc.)?

• Add down jacket as matter of course (I'd skipped it as it was a warm day but would've needed it for overnights
  
• Definitely considering helmet

FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) http://avalancheinfo.net/Newsletters...mmonHTraps.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

F: Familiar Terrain
“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it.

A: Acceptance
Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.

C: Commitment
“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal.

E: Expert halo
The person who takes the lead might not always know best. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too. Be the devils' advocate.

T: Tracks
Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

S: Social Proof
This is the herding instinct or group-think. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.”



ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon). An alternate mnemonic closer to the order likely to be encountered on a tour is Crazy Ava’s Unstable Patter Traps Local Thugs (Considerable, Avalanches, Unstable snow, Path, Traps, Loading, Thaw). Obvious Clues Method p.8-9 http://www.avalanche.org/~aaap/archi...25_2_LoRes.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

A: Avalanches
Are there signs of avalanche activity in the area within the last 48 hours?

L: Loading
Was there loading by snow, wind or rain in the area within the last 48 hours?

P: Path
Are you in an avalanche path or starting zone?

T: Terrain Trap
Are there gullies, trees or cliffs that would increase the consequences of being caught?

R: Rating
Is the danger rating considerable or higher?

U: Unstable Snow
Are there signs of unstable snow, such as whumpfing, cracking or hollow sounds?

Th: Thaw Instability
Has there been recent significant melting of the snow surface by sun, rain or warm air?


Total yes answers. 0-2 normal caution, 3-4 extra caution, 5-7 not recommended.

[hop]

When you watch the lower half of the waterfall slide and still the lemmings march on to take lines other then safety valley, yes I have to believe it was on purpose.

I always shudder when people call that line anything "safety" related. It's a total misnomer and I believe the name leads to that "familar/complacency" issue.

Sure, it's a lot mellower than the rest of the Arm, but I've seen every pitch of that thing rip out just as big as anywhere else on the Arm, and I'm sure you have too.

[Your Attorney]

I always shudder when people call that line anything "safety" related. It's a total misnomer and I believe the name leads to that "familar/complacency" issue.

Sure, it's a lot mellower than the rest of the Arm, but I've seen every pitch of that thing rip out just as big as anywhere else on the Arm, and I'm sure you have too.

You're a homo.

[tomi25]

That was fucking scarry. I'm glad you are all okay...
Risks are always present.
Thanks for posting the story.

[DerJaeger]

Just saw this thread for the first time. Holy sheeeet. Very glad to hear you guys made out out of there, if somewhat banged up. If this caught out you guys (especially an avvy geek like Lee), I don't think anyone would have avoided it. Your due diligence was more thorough than most people's.

I agree the heli was exactly the right call. Self rescue would have been infeasible.

I'm thinking for 2014, a different mountain.

PS: Lee, hope that avalung proved it's worth!

[powder11]

from the top of 7th, it looked like that same Fissile slope ripped out again. Probably a weak faceted layer buried in there and not the place to go for 2nds.

[LeeLau]

From today - looks like weather's erased most of the tracks

[hick]

Very informative read, thanks for sharing. I feel like I should read this thread a couple of times a season now just to sharpen my own decision making. Glad everyone came out alive!

[postman22]

FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) and ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

In the interests of helping us learn, will each of you (Lee, Richard, Phil) answer the FACETS & ALP TRUTh checklist questions with Yes or No (if appropriate feel free to add additional text to your Yes or No answers)? Also, what would you do differently?



a) FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon)

Was your decision making influenced by:

F: Familiarity (Yes or No) Yes

A: Acceptance (Yes or No) No

C: Commitment/Consistency (Yes or No)No, I think that is quite apparent from my write up

E: Expert halo (Yes or No)I still don't get the question here. Would I have second thoughts if I was able to ski that run, had I had a second ski, but was worried what a dominant partner would think. If that's what your getting at then absolutely not.

T: Tracks/Scarcity (Yes or No)No, we had basically an entire north american mountain to ourselves (i would imagine fissile is prob around 1500 acres of skiing), so was i worried that i wasn't going to get fresh tracks no.

S: Social Facilitation (Yes or No)[COLOR="Red"Again, don't really understand the question here. We picked a safe route to the summit, backed off a few runs, and skied one run before the slide safely. If any of us would have had any doubts, I don't think we are the type of group to hold back those thoughs.[/COLOR]



b) ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

Did you observe:

A: Avalanches (Yes or No) I don't get it again. Did I observe avalanches on the way. No, if we did we probably wouldn't have skied. Did we see big slides the day before, no. That probably would have influenced our decision making. Did I observe my buddies in an avalanche, yes, but that is after the fact so thats like saying hindsight is 20.20.

L: Loading (Yes or No) We knew areas were loaded as they typically are in the coasts. In my experience that has been manageable. I wouldn't say a Yes answer to this would stop me from skiing any runs differently.

P: Path (Yes or No) Everything in Whistler is above alpine with cornices and big bowls. So like it or not we are always in start paths or run outs. Would this change my decision making, absolutely not.

T: Terrain Trap (Yes or No) Yes, there are is a terrain trap were the slide happened. However as I mentioned earlier, I would say over 50% of the terrain we ski in bounds at W/B has terrain traps. So unless I consciously decide not to ski any of these in bounds, then it's going to be really difficult for me to stop skiing them out of bounds as well.

R: Rating (Yes or No)I can't say with certainty but I believe it was moderate that day.

U: Unstable Snow (Yes or No)Had we noticed any until that slide, no. We had sluff on our first run, but we were expecting that.

Th: Thaw Instability (Yes or No) No.

Conclusion. I would say based on this survey we would be at a a 3 or 4 rating. .

c) What would you do differently? I've thought about this one quite a bit. I think I would bring a Sat Phone. I think I would bring some pain killers in case something like this happened again. But ultimately no I wouldn't change anything.

Also any plans for additional avalanche education (Canadian Avalanche Skills Training (AST) Level 1, Canadian AST Level 2, reread specific books or articles, regularly read magazines like The Avalanche Review and/or Avalanche.ca Journal, review the online avalanche course from the Canadian Avalanche Association www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/overview, etc.); I would like to do a Level 1 and I would like to take a wilderness survival course. When I will be able to take these with work is beyond me.

additional medical training (Basic Wilderness First Aid, Advanced Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness First Responder, Wilderness EMT, Wilderness Practitioner, Outdoor Emergency Care Technician, etc.);

and/or additional equipment (satellite phone, VHF radio, helmet, avalung, avalanche air bag, specific medical / other survival items, etc.)?





FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) http://www.mec.ca/Main/content_text....34374302881868 http://avalancheinfo.net/Newsletters...mmonHTraps.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

F: Familiarity
“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it. An avalanche does not care that you are a local.

A: Acceptance
Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.

C: Commitment/Consistency
“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal. We mistakenly simplify our decisions by only choosing to believe only what supports with our commitment and ignoring new information that is inconsistent. No avalanche cares about your preferences.

E: Expert halo
The person who takes the lead might not always know best. Sometimes the expert is just the person who knows the route or has the strongest personality. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too. As Andre Roch said "The avalanche does not know that you are an expert".

T: Tracks/Scarcity
Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

S: Social Facilitation
This is the herding instinct or groupthink. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.” Selectively be the devil's advocate to avoid groupthink and to stimulate discussion.



ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon). An alternate mnemonic closer to the order likely to be encountered on a tour is Crazy Ava’s Unstable Patter Traps Local Thugs (Considerable, Avalanches, Unstable snow, Path, Traps, Loading, Thaw). Obvious Clues Method p.8-9 http://www.avalanche.org/~aaap/archi...25_2_LoRes.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

A: Avalanches
Are there signs of avalanche activity in the area within the last 48 hours?

L: Loading
Was there loading by snow, wind or rain in the area within the last 48 hours?

P: Path
Are you in an avalanche path or starting zone?

T: Terrain Trap
Are there gullies, trees or cliffs that would increase the consequences of being caught?

R: Rating
Is the danger rating considerable or higher?

U: Unstable Snow
Are there signs of unstable snow, such as whumpfing, cracking or hollow sounds?

Th: Thaw Instability
Has there been recent significant melting of the snow surface by sun, rain or warm air?


Total yes answers. 0-2 normal caution, 3-4 extra caution, 5-7 not recommended.

See above

[RampagingMullet]

FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) and ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

In the interests of helping us learn, will each of you (Lee, Richard, Phil) answer the FACETS & ALP TRUTh checklist questions with Yes or No (if appropriate feel free to add additional text to your Yes or No answers)? Also, what would you do differently?



a) FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon)

Was your decision making influenced by:

F: Familiarity (Yes or No)No, I have made two approaches to fissle in the past, but have turned back due to weather or snow conditions, so this was my first time on this particular run

A: Acceptance (Yes or No) No

C: Commitment/Consistency (Yes or No)No

E: Expert halo (Yes or No)Yes, this goes back to the picture of the snow boarder in the start zone. I remember standing there with the same view as that picture, and asking Lee a couple times "ok ski to that tree there? that one right there? ok I'll ski to that tree and stop. Ok, let's go!"

T: Tracks/Scarcity (Yes or No)No

S: Social Facilitation (Yes or No)No



b) ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon)

Did you observe:

A: Avalanches (Yes or No)No

L: Loading (Yes or No)Yes

P: Path (Yes or No)From my time in the monashees in february this year, everything is a start zone, but it was almost flat, no convexity... I guess it's still a YES

T: Terrain Trap (Yes or No)Yes

R: Rating (Yes or No)Yes, I think the alpine was at considerable that day, but phil might be right with moderate, if so, it was considerable the day prior. So a Yes again

U: Unstable Snow (Yes or No)No

Th: Thaw Instability (Yes or No)No

so that is 5 for me... that's some food for thought... Thanks skis4fun

c) What would you do differently?

Also any plans for additional avalanche education (Canadian Avalanche Skills Training (AST) Level 1, Canadian AST Level 2, reread specific books or articles, regularly read magazines like The Avalanche Review and/or Avalanche.ca Journal, review the online avalanche course from the Canadian Avalanche Association www.avalanche.ca/cac/training/overview, etc.);
I have a AST1, and I actively read avalanche litterature. i will continue to learn more about avalanches from books,internet, guides, and peers, but probably won't take another official course
additional medical training (Basic Wilderness First Aid, Advanced Wilderness First Aid, Wilderness First Responder, Wilderness EMT, Wilderness Practitioner, Outdoor Emergency Care Technician, etc.);
i have OFA 3, and am continuing with my first aid training, however, what I find to be the most useful, and is something i don't think you can teach, is having a cool head in emergency situations

and/or additional equipment (satellite phone, VHF radio, helmet, avalung, avalanche air bag, specific medical / other survival items, etc.)?

Sat phone or Radio phone (ICom) will be added to my pack for sure. (Thanks again Lee). i usually have an extra wool sweater in my pack, but I wasn't carying it this time, staying warm is key to avoiding shock, I also carry a pack of those chemical heating pads. As far as medication, pain doesn't kill you, so personally i would not take any sort of pain medication if I thought i had anything more than a bump of bruise prior to seeing a doctor because I am not sure what medication causes symptoms of shock to worsen. In a trauma incident, shock will kill you, not pain. It sounds like that celox may be good for a large laceration, but so are pressure points and a tensor.




FACETS (human factors checklist by Ian McCammon) http://www.mec.ca/Main/content_text....34374302881868 http://avalancheinfo.net/Newsletters...mmonHTraps.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

F: Familiarity
“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it. An avalanche does not care that you are a local.

A: Acceptance
Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.

C: Commitment/Consistency
“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal. We mistakenly simplify our decisions by only choosing to believe only what supports with our commitment and ignoring new information that is inconsistent. No avalanche cares about your preferences.

E: Expert halo
The person who takes the lead might not always know best. Sometimes the expert is just the person who knows the route or has the strongest personality. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too. As Andre Roch said "The avalanche does not know that you are an expert".

T: Tracks/Scarcity
Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.

S: Social Facilitation
This is the herding instinct or groupthink. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.” Selectively be the devil's advocate to avoid groupthink and to stimulate discussion.



ALP TRUTh (avalanche risk checklist by Ian McCammon). An alternate mnemonic closer to the order likely to be encountered on a tour is Crazy Ava’s Unstable Patter Traps Local Thugs (Considerable, Avalanches, Unstable snow, Path, Traps, Loading, Thaw). Obvious Clues Method p.8-9 http://www.avalanche.org/~aaap/archi...25_2_LoRes.pdf http://backcountrybeacon.com/2010/02...th-and-facets/

A: Avalanches
Are there signs of avalanche activity in the area within the last 48 hours?

L: Loading
Was there loading by snow, wind or rain in the area within the last 48 hours?

P: Path
Are you in an avalanche path or starting zone?

T: Terrain Trap
Are there gullies, trees or cliffs that would increase the consequences of being caught?

R: Rating
Is the danger rating considerable or higher?

U: Unstable Snow
Are there signs of unstable snow, such as whumpfing, cracking or hollow sounds?

Th: Thaw Instability
Has there been recent significant melting of the snow surface by sun, rain or warm air?


Total yes answers. 0-2 normal caution, 3-4 extra caution, 5-7 not recommended.

see red text above

[powdork]

just wanted both those pictures together to get a better idea. just going from the pictures it certainly doesn't look flat. do you think skiing steeper lines sometimes gives you a false sense of the 30*-40* range? i know the more comfortable i get with steeper lines, the more i think of those in the 38* range as being 'flat' and therefore maybe lose sense of where the danger zone is.

i'm also partially asking because this quote caught my attention as soon as i read it.

We had skied a 55% degree pitch with nothing but slough coming down, which we were expecting.

[postman22]

i'm also partially asking because this quote caught my attention as soon as i read it.

i think more than anything skiing whistler you get into the familiarity problem. we ski stuff up here on a daily basis that you might be able to ski once a year in the rocky's.

so yes i ski spanky's ladder, chainsaw ridge, and all the other steep stuff at least on a weekly basis. do i feel that 35-40% degrees is flat now, no... but it definitely isn't as steep as i used to think it was. is that a problem... i don't know.

[Hicks]

Very informative read, thx for putting that together.

Your buddies are some truly lucky boys.

[LeeLau]

just wanted both those pictures together to get a better idea. just going from the pictures it certainly doesn't look flat. do you think skiing steeper lines sometimes gives you a false sense of the 30*-40* range? i know the more comfortable i get with steeper lines, the more i think of those in the 38* range as being 'flat' and therefore maybe lose sense of where the danger zone is.

i'm also partially asking because this quote caught my attention as soon as i read it.

powdork. The 28 deg measurement is from a picture I have of the slope from a month ago (it's in the link I posted which had a lot of pictures). The slope isn't convex but it does steepen as follows:

28 degrees in the first few turns (maybe 20m elevation?)

30 degrees for another 100m or so of elevation

35 degrees just before a small chute which cuts through the cliffs and then drops into the apron below the cliffs (50m of elevation)

All this is academic of course. My **intended** route might have been safe but the avalanche took Rich and I off the intended route and over the cliffs.