Need some quick small handyman business related advice

[always wright]

edit: holy shit, I posted this and realized it was way too long. Here's the truncated version:

Myself and a buddy co-own a company. We painted a ~900 sq ft. apartment for $1800. We were given no notice on it, and had to work through the night, but we charged our normal rate anyway. Now our client is saying it's too expensive, she might lose the contract on the place (she's a property manager) so she only wants to pay $1500. She had given us NO guidelines (no budget, etc) whatsoever other than 'make it look good.' We did, and we didn't fuck around while doing it. What should I do?

See below for details if you have time to kill:


A little background briefly: Myself and a friend started a small handyman business in Vancouver BC. We're picking up a little work here and there, but nothing too substantial. This suits us fine, because we want to learn the ropes before going full-time with it in the summer.

We recently did a job for a property manager who has given us quite a bit of work. She usually gives us small jobs, but this time she needed a two-bed, two-bath apartment painted. She accepts that we're not pro painters, and so we would likely take longer than her usual guy, but we charge half his hourly rate, so she was okay with it.

This was the arrangement: Tuesday night, she contacts us and asks us to look at the place. My friend heads out there to assess the situation. The place needs to be painted by Saturday at noon. He agrees, knowing that it will involve a few late evenings for us. We're okay with that, because we're getting started, etc, and agree to do it on a time and materials basis for our normal rate. The only guideline she gave us was a deadline, and that we should make it look good. She wanted everything but the ceilings painted. On Wednesday, she contacts us and tells us that the deadline has changed to Friday night, and the place has to be dry by first thing Saturday morning.

Because we're normal people with inflexible schedules, we can't get started until 6pm on Thursday. We work until 2am taping, prepping, and painting all the trim. Friday we're able to start a little earlier; I got there at 1:30, my buddy a little before then. We also hired two friends. We stay until 12.30am. Significant portions of the place required two coats, including all the trim. We had to be creative with our timing to allow four hours between coats in all the places that obviously needed it. We worked the entire time, and did not take breaks except a half hour for dinner, for which we are not charging. The place, we have heard from her and the tenants who moved in, looks great. Total pro-looking job. In fact, it looks better than it did after the last time it was painted.

When we tell our client that it took 60 man hours, she freaks. We tell her that in addition to that, we were hoping to negotiate with her on our rate, asking for time and a half after nine. When she immediately says that's not okay because we hadn't discussed it before, we acquiesce and tell her that we expected her to say that, and that she's right. We present her with the bill, at our normal rate, which totals just under $1800. A day later, she says it's too expensive, insinuates that we must have been dicking around, and tells us that $1500 is more than fair. She says she's concerned that she might lose the contract if she gives them a bill that high, and says that she will have to pay us out of her own pocket.

I know it's difficult to assess without having seen the place, but is what we're asking fair? It took two coats of paint nearly everywhere in a 2bed 2bath apartment that is around 900 sq ft. There were many holes that needed filling beforehand. Pro painters cut in rather than taping, but we didn't want to risk that, so we taped. She knew we would be doing this.

My initial thoughts are:

1) As far as I know, that's on the high end of a fair price for an apartment of that size.

2) She gave us NO notice, and we were forced to work through the middle of the night two nights running. She had no one else to go to; nobody except infants just happen to have Wed, Thurs, and Fri free and clear. If anyone else accepted the job, I feel like they would have charged a premium rate for rush delivery. We did not; we charged out regular rate.

3) She gave us NO budget and NO max. number of hours. She only told us to be done by Friday night.

4) She allowed NO negotiation after the fact on our part (i.e. higher wages past nine) but now wants to reserve that privilege for herself (she's cutting our wages significantly).

5) I feel like she fucked up here, and if she has to pay it out of her pocket, that's her onus. I don't see why it should come out of ours.

If anyone made it this far, thanks. Can anyone tell me if our bill is too high? She said her guy would have done it for $700. I think she's trying to jerk us around. We called another painting company and explained the situation, and they said that a good rule of thumb is $2.50/sq. ft. That would make our bill perfectly reasonable.

So what should I do? I know the customer is always right, but I feel like this woman is trying to put the pressure on us to reach into our pockets and pay for her mistake. She's also questioning our integrity, which is BULLSHIT. I work HARD when I work. I will admit that I'm not an experienced painter, and that it would take me much longer to paint a place than a pro, but she knew that going into the deal. We were explicit about it, and did not attempt to misrepresent ourselves. What I want to do is tell her that this is not an appropriate time for negotiation, and that in the future, she should make her expectations more clear. I also want to tell her that she should find someone else to do her repairs. What I want to avoid is harming our reputation right from the get-go.

So should I take the $1500 or go for the jugular? Or should I accept $1650 as a compromise and dissolve the business relationship?

Thanks for reading my sweet blog.

[mitch_cumstein]

edit: holy shit, I posted this and realized it was way too long. Here's the truncated version:



So should I take the $1500 or go for the jugular? Or should I accept $1650 as a compromise and dissolve the business relationship?

Thanks for reading my sweet blog.

So what's you're billing rate? 1800/60= 30 bucks/hour and you said you hired two friends or did I misread? So that's four of you at around 7.50/hour?

Did you really time your crew honestly or did you round up a little? 7.50/hour for the work you described seems more than fair, but when I step back and think about it 1800 seems steep.

Did you take pictures of the finished job? Before and afters? That would help.

If I were you I would take the $1500 and walk. Explain to your buddies what happened. If you concede, she may or may not hire you again. I know a lot of business books will tell you not to change or negotiate your rate and thats what a lot of people here will probably say, but thats not the real world when you're trying to start a small business like this. If you want her back as a client and think you can reconcile the situation I would take the hit with a smile just as long as she understands the value of the service you delivered and you can pay your bills and yourself.

Its a tough economy and surely people are out to take advantage of you. Take the offer, but maybe think about drawing up some basic contracts, get some insurance and make it official.

[always wright]

So what's you're billing rate? 1800/60= 30 bucks/hour and you said you hired two friends or did I misread? So that's four of you at around 7.50/hour?

Did you really time your crew honestly or did you round up a little? 7.50/hour for the work you described seems more than fair, but when I step back and think about it 1800 seems steep.

Did you take pictures of the finished job? Before and afters? That would help.

If I were you I would take the $1500 and walk. Explain to your buddies what happened. If you concede, she may or may not hire you again. I know a lot of business books will tell you not to change or negotiate your rate and thats what a lot of people here will probably say, but thats not the real world when you're trying to start a small business like this. If you want her back as a client and think you can reconcile the situation I would take the hit with a smile just as long as she understands the value of the service you delivered and you can pay your bills and yourself.

Its a tough economy and surely people are out to take advantage of you. Take the offer, but maybe think about drawing up some basic contracts, get some insurance and make it official.

Thanks for the response.

The $1800 includes materials. We bill at $25/hr and paid our friends $20/hr. That's definitely steep for labor, but it was Halloween Friday until 12.30am, and no one was willing to work for less. Unfortunately, no pics of the job. I usually do that, but I forgot my camera. My mistake.

I DON'T want her back as a client. That may not be the right thing to do, but I don't want to work for someone who will expect me to work through the night for no additional compensation and then question my integrity and fuck me around on the bill.

[XXX-er]

what you gona do go to small claim's which will hold your money up/cost time yada yada ?

You say she has been good for alot of business ,to rationalize it to yourself I would amortise what you are losing over ALL the work she HAS given you ...look at the positive

lots of guys just plain don't get paid period whereas she is just trying to fuck you over a little bit

I would deal , take 1650$ and reserve the right to fuck her over next week/month/five years from now for the other 150$ ... you know the chance will come

and chalk this up to experiance ... next time get it in writing

[dk_alaskan]

no notice, no budget agreed upon beforehand, within reasonable rate compared to other operations, working after regular business hours with a constantly changing deadline, having to get help with everything to make sure you hit the deadline...hmmm, I think you did everything asked of you and then some. the question you need to ask, assuming you were upfront about everything with the client is, how much is eating 300 worth to you in possible future business. If it is going to harm the future of the company, I would say eat it, and then, the next time said client comes crawling back asking for help in a pinch, charge her 1 1/2 time hourly rate with an early finish bonus clause and have EVERYTHING in writing. You may have heard this before but sometimes in business you have to spend (in your case lose) money to make money.

[always wright]

Damn, that's why I posted this shit here. Thanks a lot for the help. I like the idea of pretending that the $300 was lost over the course of all the work done for her, that makes it less of a hit for sure.

And next time, everything in writing. You really do learn a lot running a business. Now I see why my bosses have always made so much more than me in all my previous jobs. It's because they deserved it.

[XXX-er]

I got a drywaller buddy who has been slinging mud for 30+ years ,he got fucked ONCE,
now he won't even give you a rough quote of any kind over the phone ,he comes and looks ,writes a contract ,anything changes you want something more or less ... he writes an adendum to the contract

having said that nobody else up here does contracts ,they all say "we don't know how much its gona cost and besides if we just give you a ballpark and charge by the hr we might save you money "

to which I ask " SO you are a fucking proffesional and you don't know how much even a new construction is gona cost ?"

and they all think mike holmes from HGTV is an idiot
http://www.hgtv.ca/holmesonhomes/

edit : as Jerry Rubin once said "you wana fuck the system not kill it " next time you just wana fuck her over not kill her ... don't be greedy

[mitch_cumstein]

Its the cost of doing business...off the books. You can't have that much overhead; paint, tape, etc. You just cleared what, a couple hundred bucks in a couple days with a little sleep depravation and hand-holding. Like I said, the cost of doing business.

I think it would be very unwise to write the client off. People talk and most small businesses operate on word of mouth, especially, I could imagine, in the metropolis that is Whistler.

EDIT: The most important thing is not the money, but the client and your reputation. A lot of painters would probably kill to get a professional relationship developed with someone like your client the property manager.

[fez]

I got a drywaller buddy who has been slinging mud for 30+ years ,he got fucked ONCE,
now he won't even give you a rough quote of any kind over the phone ,he comes and looks ,writes a contract ,anything changes you want something more or less ... he writes an adendum to the contract

im in a similar situation with some website work, rush job, didnt bother with getting especially good requirements because it looked like an easy job. client turns out to be a nutcase leading to lots of extra work. from now on, even if it's a rush job, full requirements, contract agreed to, changes are sized and added to the contract.

i also have a new rule for any contracts. im not a graphic designer. if it makes sense to you for me to do your graphic design, even resizing images to thumbnails and cutting apart psds for graphics, then i'm not charging enough. so graphics work is twice the price. and since i suck at photoshop, i charge for time i spend figuring out how to do what you need done too.

[Micol]

I don't think she's trying to fuck you guys. Her normal painter is probably pro and he or she would spray that thing and not hand paint or roll. Also, pro's don't tape usually , they will cut free hand. So, my point is that the pro would have been in and out quick. You guys I'm sure worked hard and fast but you can't beat the speed of spraying paint and free hand cutting trim and tops.

If you value her business and want to do more in the future I would negotiate and bring up the points that you did not have the same equipment therefore it took longer. But, your not going to make her pay for that extra time. If you don't want to keep her as a client stick to your original price.

If you guys can come through with short notice and stay below her budget you will have more work than you can handle.

just my opinion

[DoWork]

Hey- you want it now, you pay extra. Especially if you had to pull an all-nighter to get it done. Explain to the beeyotch that you like to sleep, and if she could have given more notice it would be more reasonable. That said, paint work isn't exactly rocket science, so maybe $20/hr is a little steep but again, she needed it done ASAP, she should expect to pay a premium for that service.

[Nick_C_123]

I've got some quick small handyman business advice for ya:

Contract

That's why they're called contractors.Sorry to say it but you fucked up. Take the money you can get and run. If its not in writing then it didn't happen. If I were you I'd be getting the terms spelled out for all but the smallest jobs, especially when buying materials, paying employees gets involved.

[co skier]

Contract

That's why they're called contractors.Sorry to say it but you fucked up. Take the money you can get and run. If its not in writing then it didn't happen. If I were you I'd be getting the terms spelled out for all but the smallest jobs, especially when buying materials, paying employees gets involved.

x2 - Quote and get signature of owner/client before you work.

[loJack]

Since you don't want her back as a client this is what I would do. Take the 1500 and explain to her your side of the story, that you are a new business and you would like to keep working with her in the future blah blah blah. This way the bitch feels a little greedmongers guilt and will use you again for being such stand up guys. Then on the next job or the next couple of jobs you get that 300 back by milking her. Nothing drastic, just don't cut those corners that you would in order to save her money. A little extra time here a new extension cord there. Once you are even just tell her you are too busy for her or give her really high bids and off you go.

[always wright]

Thanks for all the advice. I wrote her an emotionally neutral email basically explaining that I don't believe I'm at fault, and that I completed the job within the stipulations she gave me. However, as a token of good faith, and because I value her business, I'm willing to compromise on this one. I told her I'd be willing to split the difference. Ball's in her court. As my dad told me, she's got me over a barrel... I can't exactly go scrape the paint off the walls.

Just to clarify, I don't think she's a bitch... she's just a businesswoman trying to make a buck. I'm willing to concede that my bill is high for this type of work, but as DoWork said, there's a premium for rush jobs. She knew how much I charged, she knew that we weren't pros and were going to tape, hand roll, etc, and so she should have expected it to take longer than a pro painter would have done. Like fez's situation, I am not a painter. If someone wants me to paint, I won't lie and tell them I will do a perfect job in the same time a pro would, but I'm also going to have to charge for however long it takes me to do a good job. I certainly wasn't fucking around.

Anyway, thanks again. I knew I could count on you guys to give me a good range of sensible advice.

edit: I definitely learned something from this situation. As some said, I fucked up when I didn't get it in writing. In the future, contracts, contracts, contracts.

[DJSapp]

[Good contractor hat] Present her with the invoices for your materials and your timesheets (make them). Total the costs out clearly, and if she still argues that you were dicking around and won't split the costs, warn her that this may strain future work. Accept the $300 loss.

[Evil contractor hat] Hold out for the full $1800. If she doesn't agree, place a lien on the property for the FULL bill with charges for your labor at time and a half or double time. Write a certified letter documenting the entire contract negotiation from beginning to end. You will never work for her again, but will get paid.

I think it's clear that you should take the high road here. And besides contracts, there is the other rule: changed conditions (schedule or conditions) ALWAYS equals changed costs. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.

[Hutch]

I get a call like this roughly once a week from contractors working without getting a signed agreement in advance.

When you don't establish the terms of your engagement in writing in advance, you cannot efficiently (inexpensively) collect what you are entitled to. Chock it up to a learning experience. Even a form contract with blanks for the name of the client, the job site address, the scope of work, the cost or hourly rate and a place for them to sign would suffice for trying to collect. (It would be better to have an attorney in your jurisdiction prepare a contract for you). You should also have a form for change orders that both you and the client sign before you agree to make any purchases or perform any work.

[eldereldo]

I don't paint, I program. I made that mistake ONCE, but it cost me a lot more than $300.00. But I still swallowed the loss because the client involved had made me a lot of money over the years, and he has made me a lot since. But I only do jobs now on a quoted basis, with details of what is included.

Write it off, but next time ask her in advance what she expects the job to cost, and decided on that basis whether to take it. If you do, get her to sign saying she will pay this much $ for this many coats, this many hours of patching and job completed by this date. Any extras or changes are negotiated seperately.

[counterfeitfake]

Super bad idea for BOTH of you to go in without an agreement. You both should have known better. I mean, when she said "I don't care how much it costs, just make it look good..." how did either of you think it was going to end well?

DEFINITELY not worth $300 to snip off potential future business and create an enemy. Learn the lesson and go in smarter next time.