Tip Rocker v. Early Rise

[rabbit]

Well, what did the word "rocker" mean before the ski companies started using it?

.

From surfboards it's actually nose-rocker and tail-kick. So if youre talking kick it was the tail and rocker the nose.

We, skiers, really should have used this difference in definitions since it makes it easier to talk about. Sort of like how switch used to mean that you couldnt tell that the guy was actually riding fakie.
When a skier comes sliding ass-forwards its (at least usually) quite visible from afar that he's not skiing the "right" way...

/r

[Driver]

+1 for "it doesn't matter". Call it whatever you want, different skis are different shapes.

[Blurred]

So I am seeing "tip rocker" and "early rise" tossed around like they are different things. However, arent they the exact same thing? I believe Rossi calls the tip and tail on the S7 "early rise", but other skis with similar profiles are described as having a "rockered shovel and tail". Just curious if I am missing something. Oh and go ahead and bring on the "early rise" = "morning wood" jokes, cuz I know you just cant help it.

Now I have to go back to watching Marshal's Mountain Dew auction to see if I win or not

I'm not a pedantic person if you haven't figured that out, but I've wondered the same thing if that makes you feel better.

As far as I'm concerned, rocker is rocker. It's a bent tip/tail that rises of the ground. Some rocker goes back 20 cm, some goes all the way to the toe.
You know the difference between reverse camber and rocker, and that's all you need to know.

I also think early rise is what another company has decided to call it, and maybe that's because it's rocker going into traditional camber underfoot.

Kind of like the whole cab/switch/etc debate in ski tricks. All the same.

[cyclerower]

In wakeboarding you have a continious rocker, which is a round curve from tip to tail without any flatspot (like praxis pow) and a threestage rocker with a turned up nose and tail and a flatspot underfoot (like hellbents). Well, this doesnt say anything about the rocker shape in the nose/tail but it would be starting point to tell rockered skis apart in general.

[keksie]

I just read the first few posts but so I'm sorry if someone already pointed this out but:

This thread is stupid.

[js44jack]

Sorry for bringing back a year old thread, but 4FRNT's Tech Talk 23 talks about the differences of Rocker and Early Rise.

[ame="http://vimeo.com/10904955"]Tech Talk - Episode 23 - Rocker vs. Early Rise on Vimeo[/ame]

[marshalolson]

i love sterbenz. awesome dude. but not a sweet explanation. the CRJ has 2 distinct changes in shovel rise, the rocker line and the shovel line. the exact same as the TURBO. the application is a little different, but the idea is the same. his explanation makes no sense. if you are actually "rockering" in the snow, as he defines it, it would only apply to skis with tail rocker. a flat tailed ski would be incapable of what he is talking about, unless he wants folks to nose-press some pow runs. and you might need a little more rocker than that


"rocker" was a term coined in 2002 by stephan drake refering to the tabla rasa.
"early rise" was a term coined in 2004 by eric pollard refering to the prophet 130.

they mean the same thing. that there is a change in the camber profile before the shovel rises.

that is all they mean. basically every single ski on the market today, including 78mm waist carving skis has some form or "rocker" or "early rise", both tip and tail. it just simply works better. the amount of rise, and the positioning of the rocker line relative to the effective edge, and how the flex pattern and core thickness interplay with all of these variables is where the differences lie.

everyone getting so hung-up on the nomenclature is hilarious. its like when iceman is skiing in jeans and wants to "try them parabolic skis". they just have sidecut, man. all of them. they even did when they were "straight".

[MakersTeleMark]

...its like when iceman is skiing in jeans and wants to "try them parabolic skis". they just have sidecut, man. all of them. they even did when they were "straight".

So to distill your thesis, I believe you are indicating that, sure 'nuff, Iceman Skis In Bell bottoms.

[Wetdog]

My understanding of early rise and rocker is that they are indeed different. Early rise is when the radius of the tip starts sooner or further back on the ski. Examples of this would be the pre rockered version of the Lotus 120, the PM Gear Lhasa Pows, the Volkl Sanouk etc. The Dynafit Stoke and Manaslu have early rise, but are not rockered. Rocker, in my understanding, is when the fore body of the ski, or the tail, is bent upwards before the tip or tail radius starts. ie reverse camber. Some skis like the Praxis Powders and Volant Spatlua have continuous rocker, while others others are flat under foot, ie zero camber, transitioning to rocker or early rise, while still others have recurve, ie camber underneath trasitioning to rocker. Some skis incorporate both early rise and rocker or one or the other, like the Praxis Powders which have continuous rocker, but normal radius tips, while the Lotus 120's and Voile Drifters appear to have both early rise and Rocker. That's just my take. It seems many people, including ski companies, use the terms "early rise" and "rocker" interchangeably, which complicates things, and the terms become common usage for the wrong thing, just like when people use words "then" and "than" interchangeably or get them mixed up.

[merlinmassoud]

+1 with wetdog vocabulary,

early rise is a part of the showel,
rocker is after,
sometimes they're mixed like renegade ( wich in fact have no rocker , only inverse camber )
sometimes they're not like hellbent or EP.

all that got sense only with other features of the ski.

[spaztwelve]

Rocker is a surfboard term and has ALWAYS meant that the board has a measurable amount of what some call, reverse camber.

Early rise is a term that snowboard manufacturers have been using since, I don't know, 1990???

Most skis have camber. Usually that camber ends where the sidecut ends. Usually the tip (and tail) start to rise from that point. If the point where it rises is far back (i.e. not quick like a traditional ski) then it has a 'early rise'

You guys want to make this so hard...

[marshalolson]

you can apply any arbitrary definition you want, but both terms were coined about the same general shape, at different times by different people.

by definition the spatula is reverse camber. it means that the skis is cleanly cambered all the way through the length, just in the opposite direction of a traditional ski.
by definition the lotus 120 is rockered. it has never been a non-rockered ski. it was the first ski to be called rocker actually (well, it predecessor the tabla rasa was). the position of the rocker line, and amount of splay has changed through the years.

see vitamin i's thread about rocker definition. i feel like a broken record. its all in that thread.

[merlinmassoud]

perhaps ski vocabulary is not always the same than surf or winsurf vocabulary.
by example, pintail doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

for surfers, an early taper tip can't be a early rise tip too?

[spaztwelve]

Skiers take themselves WAY too seriously. Skis have sucked and have changed very little for the last 30+ years. Now they're getting wider, playing with sidecuts, effective edge lengths and camber profiles. Snowboard companies are at least 15 years ahead. Granted, actual marketed rocker is only coming out now, but if you were around in 94/95 at SIA when there were 240+ snowboard companies, you would have witnessed flat camber even then.

Now that the ski companies see that there's a buzz, because unimaginative skiers can finally try new things and are eager to talk about it, they're acting like they've reinvented the sport. News flash: they aren't.

Does your ski have any camber? Then it's not rocker or reverse camber.


Here's the snowboarder's explanation: http://snowboarding.transworld.net/1...ber-explained/

[spaztwelve]

perhaps ski vocabulary is not always the same than surf or winsurf vocabulary.
by example, pintail doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

for surfers, an early taper tip can't be a early rise tip too?

No. All surf boards have rocker. They'd submarine if they didn't. Whether they have more or less, or start at different points is arbitrary. Rocking chairs have rocker. Then don't have reverse camber or early rise. They have rocker. If your skis do what a rocking chair does, they have rocker, not early rise, not reverse camber.

Reverse camber is the dumbest marketing term of all. Camber acts as a spring to let a skier/boarder utilize all the available edge provided by the camber contact points (dare I say, effective edge). Reverse camber has nothing to do with camber as a design feature for turning. Reverse camber just sounds technical, so if someone is shopping for skis, they can rely on the amazing engineering expertise of the NASA scientists that removed camber and made skis squirrelly.

This thread will certainly meet its demise the same way my effective edge thread did, because skiers and ski companies think they've reinvented the wheel and are intent on defining everything on their own terms. Standards be damned!!!

Who ever said above that this thread sucks is right.

[marshalolson]

the point is to to check the skis out in person. buy what makes sense. demo a bunch of stuff. who cares what terms are attached to it. most of them don't mean anything.

if you want to try something, and don't know where to demo it, contact the company or contact your shop to see if they can arrange something. it will cost you a little money, but it is far better than buying something you hate.

[merlinmassoud]

hello marshall,

do you know if the next 112rp 200cm will have the same rise on the showel tha the 190?

for me this long tip is a little too high, i had try tip with 5cm high and it worked very well on powder, very neutral and good stability, after few runs you forgot your tips are near the...ground.

another thing i like on some powder ski ( by exemple blackcrows Sevun ) is the "sweet spot" : parallels edges between the tip and the egdes on contact with hard snow,
combined with a flat camber and round edges.

>> you loose precision on carving, but on all bad soft snow ( tracked, wind, crust) il, s unbelivebable of fluidity, no hooking on tips!

[marshalolson]

200cm w112rp is not being planned for 11/12

if you want a longer ski with less splay (ie rise in the shovel), the lotus 120 in the dps lineup is really worth looking at.

i am not sure what you mean about the "sweet spot" parrallel edges on tip... ?

[Wetdog]

you can apply any arbitrary definition you want, but both terms were coined about the same general shape, at different times by different people.

by definition the spatula is reverse camber. it means that the skis is cleanly cambered all the way through the length, just in the opposite direction of a traditional ski.
by definition the lotus 120 is rockered. it has never been a non-rockered ski. it was the first ski to be called rocker actually (well, it predecessor the tabla rasa was). the position of the rocker line, and amount of splay has changed through the years.

see vitamin i's thread about rocker definition. i feel like a broken record. its all in that thread.

That's funny. I remember the introduction of the Red Lotus series a while back in a e-mail from DPS where the introduced the new Lotus 120 featuring tip rocker. It was spring of 09, but the e-mail link is defunk now. It showed a picture of the Lotus 120 rocker profile and a whole article on the new rocker technology they were introducing to that model.

[merlinmassoud]

ok marshall, thanks for the news for the 112rp.

in fact, i would like something between the 138 and the 120 for the profile, and the 138 and the 112 for the outline! lol
stephan would make that ( only for me, and not after Christmas... ) ?

[marshalolson]

That's funny. I remember the introduction of the Red Lotus series a while back in a e-mail from DPS where the introduced the new Lotus 120 featuring tip rocker. It was spring of 09, but the e-mail link is defunk now. It showed a picture of the Lotus 120 rocker profile and a whole article on the new rocker technology they were introducing to that model.

there was a new rocker profile, yes. but that does not mean that the previous lotus 120 didn't have rocker. it meant they had a different rocker.

i have pictures of the rocker of the very first lotus 120s somewhere in a review thread. defiantly rockered.

[Chowda]

There is actually a good article in 1st issue of ski magazine......

Doubt it.

[toast2266]

... defiantly rockered.

The man was all like: "hey! you should have normal camber"

And the ski was all like: "no way! Fuck you man! I'm fuckin rockered!"

And then the man was like: "damn. you really are defiant."

And the ski was like: "word."

[marshalolson]

^^^^ ^^^^^