Tele binding question

[PaSucks]

I just bought 173 PE's for cheap (and I mean cheap) still in the plastic. The plan is to mount them for Tele. I've only tele'd maybe 10 days or so but have progressed quickly and want a better set up. I currently have Voile 3 pin bindings and circa '93 scarpa 2 buckle boots on some old beater bent skis. Should I mount the voile bindings on the PE's and stick with my current boots or get newer bindings? What do you recommend? Am I really going to notice a difference?

I've searched but wanted some fresh opinions and I don't want to register at ttips at this point.

[adrenalated]

Are they 3-pin Hardwires or just 3-pins only?

If they are 3-pins only, I would say you really need both boots and bindings, assuming you want something downhill performance oriented. You wouldn't want to ski big boots in a 3-pin binding, and you would really want more boot if you went to a better binding. If you absolutely can't do both, second scenario probably sucks less than the first.

If they are Hardwires, well that's a fairly powerful binding (not my personal favorite, but good), and I'd just upgrade the boots.

Recs:
Boots: Scarpa T1, Garmont Ener-G, BD Push, etc. 4-buckle, buy what fits
Bindings: Hammerhead, BD O1/O2, Rottefella R8, Voile Hardwire, etc. Anything along those lines.

[PaSucks]

Cool. I have the 3-pin only. Follow up, if I upgrade to the hardwire and keep my current boots for now, will there be issues going to higher end boots later on?

[RootSkier]

No.

I would also consider 7tm Powers if you want releaseables. I would never ski with non releasables anymore.

[summer_teeth]

I would consider a more powerful binder if your wallet can handle it, and upgrade the boots next. However, the PE is a fairly soft ski and I bet if your technique is good you could ski that set-up with no problems. Cheaper bindings that would be fine include BD 03, Rotefella Chili, maybe some used G3's or Voile Hardwire's, 3-Pin cable/combos.

[XtrPickels]

FWIW BD Push's will not work with 3pin

[The mighty assgoblin]

...if you can telemark with toebinding, yourre gonna rip with big boots and heelcablebinding. All the models mentioned above is good, I have been riding the Rottefella(rattrap)R8 ever since it came, and its stiff and good enough to do most things. The Voilè and G3 are also good.
U should be able to get some used Scarpa T-1 Freeride for a few dollars to. THAT will have much more inpact on your skiing.

[ts01]

If you're even considering releasables -- get them. Maybe you're less sensitive than me to knee injuries, but having lost thousands of dollars and a lot of rehab time to knee issues and surgery from an alpine injury -- not to mention restricted running ability for the rest of my life -- I like releasables.

I'm two years into tele skiing, all post op, and have skied both releasable and nonreleasable. Once you get the releasables dialed in the performance is reasonably comparable. IMHO Voile CRB Hardwire is roughly comparable to Rottafellea R8, and better than G3 Targa. There are so many other variables in the boot/binding/ski equation, it's hard to isolate any difference to the binding. My personal preference is the Voile CRB which is available under $150 at backcountry outlet these days (http://www.backcountry.com/store/gro...emark-Bindings) , or perhaps Voile itself is still doing their 30% discount tradein deal. (http://voile-usa.com/). I know folks with 7tm's are happy too, but what I like about Voile is, in no particular order, is (a) price, (b), simplicity, (c) you can put the release kit base plate on different skis and swap the binding itself easily, (d) great customer service, (e) easy adjustability, and (f) upward release as well as lateral. OTOH CRB is kind of fugly and the 7tm looks cool.

I've heard complaints re prerelease and durability on the Voile CRB, but my general sense is the prerelease was more an issue with prior model (black plate, not grey,) and they're easily tightened up to hold when needed in the current model. If you're very heavy or a super aggressive skier you can also replace the standard spring with a burlier competitoin spring for $20. On the durability issue the gripe was they're alumnum and 7tm, Rottafella and others are steel. Steel is real and all that, but I've never had a problem putting equal or greater stress on aluminum bike frames, at higher speed on harder surfaces with worse consequences from material failure. Same with airplanes.

Newer boot are worth it -- Scarpa if you have a skinny foot, Garmont if a higher volume foot.

[RootSkier]

I know folks with 7tm's are happy too, but what I like about Voile is, in no particular order, is (a) price, (b), simplicity, (c) you can put the release kit base plate on different skis and swap the binding itself easily, (d) great customer service, (e) easy adjustability, and (f) upward release as well as lateral.

In defense of 7tm:

a) non-tour models can be had cheap, only a few $$ more than CRB, but this is probably the only legit reason to get CRBs over 7tm Powers.
b) 7tms are actually simpler because they have a DIN setting so you don't need to fuck around getting the release set up with every mount
c) same
d) same
e) same
f) not sure it matters. I've had numerous releases in all sorts of falls/ski getting caught under roots issues.

Finally, after skiing on CRBs for about 4 years and now 7tms for 6-7, I can say with certainty that 7tms are WAY easier to get back into after a release in deep snow. Putting the toe down and stepping the ball of the foot down is such a better mechanism than putting the ball of foot down and trying to push the toe down.

[XXX-er]

I've had the all mountain 7tm's since 2002 ,I don't see them being hard to get into, I put them on in the morning with ankle straps for safety

I just kick out of the bindings and leave the plates on the boots,its easy to just step back in for what is a true step-in tele binding IMO

Before I went 7tm I my kacked tib/fib on G3's ,between med bills & lost wages I figure that would have cost 10-15k without universal health care and a corporate safety net

[ts01]

In defense of 7tm:

a) non-tour models can be had cheap, only a few $$ more than CRB, but this is probably the only legit reason to get CRBs over 7tm Powers.
b) 7tms are actually simpler because they have a DIN setting so you don't need to fuck around getting the release set up with every mount
c) same
d) same
e) same
f) not sure it matters. I've had numerous releases in all sorts of falls/ski getting caught under roots issues.

Finally, after skiing on CRBs for about 4 years and now 7tms for 6-7, I can say with certainty that 7tms are WAY easier to get back into after a release in deep snow. Putting the toe down and stepping the ball of the foot down is such a better mechanism than putting the ball of foot down and trying to push the toe down.

(a) where are you finding 7tms just a few $$ more than CRB?

(b) in my experience with 7tm, same as normal alpine DIN on my son's 7tm resulted in releases cruising on an immaculate blue groomer. Had to crank up several settings before it would hold in, and now this reminds me I should probably back it down a bit so it's just high enough to hold him in, but not too high to defeat the purpose of the releasable

(f) have you gotten 7tm to release in the dreaded rearward twisting fall? I guess if there's enough twist you're OK but it's the rearward part that scares me and my bionic ACL.

Last about putting humpty dumpty together again -- are you on the newer CRB with gray riser, or the older one with black riser? Not sure if there's a difference but just curious.

The Voile/7tm tradeoffs aside, releasables are in my mind worth the modest extra cost and complexity.

[XXX-er]

(a)(b) in my experience with 7tm, same as normal alpine DIN on my son's 7tm resulted in releases cruising on an immaculate blue groomer. Had to crank up several settings before it would hold in, and now this reminds me I should probably back it down a bit so it's just high enough to hold him in, but not too high to defeat the purpose of the releasable

.

what do you weigh?

I am 170lb with small feet (this matters) and I set them to DIN 6 just like the instructions say and they work pretty much as advertised for me .

I have heard of heavier folks using a higher setting having problems

[ts01]

This was for my son who's about 135 lbs with pontoon feet (size 12). I think his alpine DIN is 5 for type II skier, and his Look Pivot bindings retain under type III skiing (bumps, jumps, trees and fast crud skiing). Same DIN on 7tm on a groomer = pre-release. One factor though could be he was carving the groomer with a much fatter ski than he's accustomed to -- Pocket Rockets, and he's been on alpine race gear with mid-60's wastes. So maybe it's a technique thing? Anyway no problem since I turned up the 7tm DIN, and YMMV of course.

[PaSucks]

Another question... What is the advantage to 3-pin vs no pins and how much does 3-pin limit boot possibilities?

[jrredho]

This was for my son who's about 135 lbs with
pontoon feet (size 12). I think his alpine DIN is 5 for type II
skier, and his Look Pivot bindings retain under type III skiing
(bumps, jumps, trees and fast crud skiing). Same DIN on 7tm on a
groomer = pre-release.

Hey, ts01, I don't know anything about tele-v-alpine DIN consistency,
but I've been skiing the 7tms for a fair bit of time now, and I'm
really curious about where you've ended up putting the 7tms relative
to the table that comes with the binding.

Is it consistent, or did you have to scale up? (The boot-size thing
does make a difference...)

Fwiw, I've been skiing mine at pretty much where the document
indicates I should be for all of the time I've owned them with no
problems, and they've released in situations where I was happy to have
had that happen.

thanks,
john

[XXX-er]

Another question... What is the advantage to 3-pin vs no pins and how much does 3-pin limit boot possibilities?

some of the new BD boots do not take pins and really a 3pin binding is not bomber enough to be used with whatever boot will not take pins

assuming a 173PE is a 179 public enemy the old T-2's and a 3pin binding are not really enough to drive a 173PE

here is a the 7tm instructions if anyone wants them need ... but they are posted on that telewhanker site

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/vi...=616824#616824

[PaSucks]

173 PE is actually 174 PE, not 179. Typo.

[XXX-er]

its size is 118/85/109 which is alot of ski to try and drive a 3pin with 15yr old boots

[jrredho]

its size is 118/85/109 which is alot of ski to
try and drive a 3pin with 15yr old boots

I agree with XXX-er.

I don't see how you can go wrong with any of several cable bindings
(Voile Hardwire, Rottefella R6/8, G3, etc), which I believe you can
find on Ebay at a reasonable price, and acquiring some boots by a
similar method from the last generation models from either Scarpa,
Garmont, or Crispi. You're going to be set.

Way back when I started skiing the first generation "wide" skis (Tua
Montets), I couldn't get down a full bump run without ripping out of
the old Rottefella 3-pins on my 1st generation t2's.

If you wear a US9 to 10, I may be able to help you...

cheers,
john

[1wsguy]

its size is 118/85/109 which is alot of ski to try and drive a 3pin with 15yr old boots

^^^truth^^^

Ditch the 3 pin set up all together.

[adrenalated]

Another question... What is the advantage to 3-pin vs no pins and how much does 3-pin limit boot possibilities?

The Voile Hardwire and the Voile 3-pin Hardwire are nearly identical in terms of skiing performance except that the 3-pin version has the pivot point farther back, which makes the binding more active (the binding helps hold the ball of your foot down).
The 3-pin also offers some advantages for touring (you can tour on just the 3-pins with no springs, and your boot is still attached if you break a spring or rod).
Pretty sure all Scarpa and Garmont boots can take 3-pins. For BD, I think the "efficiency" takes 3-pins and the "power" line does not. I also seem to remember that some Crispis don't work in 3-pins.

[GapersGoHome]

Meh. Buy several sets of HammerHead plates, one pair of bindings, and then switch between skis. You have a soft ski, throw it on position 2. Big, burly, stiff ski, crank it up to 5. Or anything in between. Just my bias. If you find a binding system that 'clicks' with you, go with it.

[ts01]

Hey, ts01, I don't know anything about tele-v-alpine DIN consistency,
but I've been skiing the 7tms for a fair bit of time now, and I'm
really curious about where you've ended up putting the 7tms relative
to the table that comes with the binding.

Is it consistent, or did you have to scale up? (The boot-size thing
does make a difference...)

Fwiw, I've been skiing mine at pretty much where the document
indicates I should be for all of the time I've owned them with no
problems, and they've released in situations where I was happy to have
had that happen.

thanks,
john

That chart gave the same recommendation as his alpine boots, i.e., 5.0 (DIN is a standard ...). His release from 7tm came at 5.0 -- it's now up around 7 or 7.5 and holding steady but I'll try backing it down to see how low we can set it before the release problem recurs.

[jrredho]

That chart gave the same recommendation as his alpine boots, i.e., 5.0 (DIN is a standard ...). His release from 7tm came at 5.0 -- it's now up around 7 or 7.5 and holding steady but I'll try backing it down to see how low we can set it before the release problem recurs.

I know that this is off-topic for the main business of this thread, but ts01, I'm sitting here with the binding doc in my lap. Based on your statements: Type II skier, 135lbs, DIN 5, I'm concluding that your son's boot sole length (pinline to heel) is in the 311-330mm range. Further, based on your comments about the terrain your son is skiing, he may well be a Type III tele skier. If that is the case, the document is indicating that your son's setting should be 6. (Code L)

For reference, I am 5'7", 165lbs, size 8.5us foot, and I ski at 6, although the chart indicates a 6.5; I do not pre-release.

You might try backing off to DIN 6 to 6.5 and see how it goes. And, by all means, please get back to us on how that works out.

cheers,
john

[ts01]

Thanks John, you're in the right range on BSL, I don't think it's marked on his tele boot but on alpine it's somewhere in the high 320's. I guess one of my issues is we always set type II DIN settings unless there's a problem, and in 7 or 8 years of Look/Rossi alpine bindings there've been very few problems. OTOH he's gaining strength and size, and is faster than most (non-racer) skiers wherever we go, so maybe it's time to think type III. I'll back it down and see.

To the OP, sorry for the highjack but hopefully the digression reinforces my original point which I think was responsive -- consider releasables, with a little bit of fuss (or none at all) they ski fine.