Ramp angle

[LeeLau]

A big sample of skiers are here. Some notice ramp angle in a binding, some don't. I know I don't; neither does MBSC, UAN, my wife etc. But then, a lot of very good skiers I know notice lack of ramp angle in a binding.

I spoke to one manufacturer for whom I'm reviewing bindings and they said that they design neutral ramp angle into their bindings. Its an alpine touring binding. They said, every boot is slightly different (lean adjustments etc) so what they did was to keep the platform for boot insertion (the binding) consistent at neutral ramp angle.

They also said that it would make more sense for the skier to put the ramp angle into their boots. I don't have much boot-fitting background - Im one of those fortunate people with boots that fit reasonably well out of the box. Can't you stick shims etc in your boots so they are leaned slightly more forward (or backwards) so you tune your preference?

Can those shims (or whatever is used) be easily removed so you can tune ramp angle if you switch to different bindings with different ramp angles?

[srsosbso]

Hi Lee.

Off the shelf boots don't come with shims, but certainly the option exists to mess with the boot board to alter ramp angle. You can shim under the heel to increase ramp angle and take up volume, or grind the boot board down in the front to increase ramp and open up some volume for your toes. I think plug boots come with all the gizmos to do this sort of alteration, but lots of bootfitters and adept DIY types can and do this on any boot. Mtnlion (and others) certainly know way more about this than I.

These alterations are not easily and quickly changed, as the bootboard is irreversibly ground or shims are glued in place, so changing it for different bindings is a pain.

I suspect AT binding manufactures lean (no pun intended) towards neutral because it makes sense for walking (you don't really want to be pitched forward on flat approaches.) But it is a compromise, because most alpine binders incorporate some degree of ramp angle. Having said that, I'm another one of those people who doesn't really notice. Kind of like mounting points- just change fore-aft position a little to compensate I guess.

[mntlion]

ramp angle inside and outside the boot do two different things.

inside the boot changes change the foot to tibia angle.

outside the boot changes keep the foot to tibia angle the same, so the next joint in the body has to move and adapt (the knee)

If you place your hand in the shape of an "L". Thumb = the foot, finger = tibia.
If you just move the wrist, keeping the same "L" shape, that is the external angle (bindings)
If you move the finger or thumb, that is the boots internal angle.

also the internal angle changes also result in boot fit changes.

[Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo]

ramp angle inside and outside the boot do two different things.

inside the boot changes change the foot to tibia angle.

outside the boot changes keep the foot to tibia angle the same, so the next joint in the body has to move and adapt (the knee)

If you place your hand in the shape of an "L". Thumb = the foot, finger = tibia.
If you just move the wrist, keeping the same "L" shape, that is the external angle (bindings)
If you move the finger or thumb, that is the boots internal angle.

also the internal angle changes also result in boot fit changes.

Is there an advantage to one over the other or do they just have different uses? Is it better to make one joint adapt instead of the other or is it all just personal preference?

[mntlion]

what ever works for you best (I think) but try for a good fitting boot first and then get the angles you want after.

Adding a heel lift to the inside of a boot, will keep the tibial shaft at the same angle but open the ankle joint more (larger angle between thumb and finger) Never understood how heel lifts = more forward lean, but that is another post.

also change things that are reversible first. That way if you don't like them you can go back

I like the stance on my boots, and my DH skis, but some AT binding, with less ramp feel like I'm in the back seat still. So I keep the boots the same, and just adjust the AT binding my removing the toe shim, or adding a heel lift to the bindings.

[Cosmic Suncloud]

the main reason for the lack of ramp angles in AT bindings is for easier, more natural movement, skinning, walking etc.
its funny how slow the euro manufacturers are in understanding that most of the recent increase in market demand is from those who walk up SO THEY CAN SKI DOWN. ITS NOT ABOUT WALKING AROUND. most, but not all, of the new users will give a little on the uphill to get better, more natural, downhill performance.

but at least the euros are making AT bindings. americans? huh, what?

[XXX-er]

My buddy the ski tech told me I had too much forward lean in a womens salomon 8.0 wave , he said he could tell cuz my ass was sticking out .

So we put a plastic shim under the toe to give a neutral or possibly even negative ramp ,but mainly I had less forward lean ... I found it much easyier to ski in a more upright position .

I think people talk about ramp and forward lean somewhat interchangably and maybe even mix them up,arent they actualy connected because to my knowledge with most alpine boots you can't really change forward lean easily without changing Ramp,whereas you can with the flick of a lever on an AT boot?

lee ,this guy has a blurb on ramp ,sez he and ALL but one customer he experimented on found LESS ramp to be better .I got some conformables from him when I was in cow-town and he is cool ...drop him a line

http://www.lous.ca/techarticles.html

I have since got rid of the toe shim and the alpines ... very happy in a more upright easily adjustable AT boot full time

[LeeLau]

the main reason for the lack of ramp angles in AT bindings is for easier, more natural movement, skinning, walking etc.
its funny how slow the euro manufacturers are in understanding that most of the recent increase in market demand is from those who walk up SO THEY CAN SKI DOWN. ITS NOT ABOUT WALKING AROUND. most, but not all, of the new users will give a little on the uphill to get better, more natural, downhill performance.

Thanks srs, mntlion, xxx-er - good article

As for the quote above; is this true? I am of the impression that people who post here are generally not representative. I think that most people who tour value the up as much as they do the down. Perhaps another discussion topic

[mntlion]

Very true comment LeeLau

Most people here are skiers who tour, not walkers who ski.

If you have more questions, or want to bounce ideas off someone please PM or keep posting, Happy to talk shop

[gunniride]

I wish I didn't notice ramp/lean angles so easily.

Prior to getting dynafits, I found the neutral angle of my Freerides to be unacceptable. I shimmed the rear of the binders, and it helped.

I now have FT12s which I'm learning to love, and Zzero 4PU which I'm not. The feel of the binding and the ramp angle feels great. It is hard to believe however, that the Zzero was one of the burliest AT boots prior to this year. Its like wearing bubble gum, though it has improved with some Scarpa Liners and the Black Spirit tongues. The issue I'm having now is forward lean, which has been discussed specifically to this boot in other threads, but I thought it might go along with the discussion. The upper lean is much too back seat feeling, while the forward feels about right until I start skiing and then it feels like it has compressed the tongue too much, even with the stiff (super stifff) scarpa tongue, it feels like it crushes the entire body of the boot.

So... I think I may take the metal pieces that actuate the lean to the welding shop, have them fill both holes and redrill one right in the middle. Then, in addition to having a middle ground lean to work with, I wouldn't be guessing whether I popped it into the right position.

On another note, as much as we all love our Alpine gear and try to copy it in boots, bindings, skis, etc. I think there are other aspects of conditions that come into play. I noticed while skiing some terrible windcrust that changed to breakable, sliding snow, then slide debris conditions last year. I had grown tired of the slop of my old Denalis, so I started using my alpine boots with FRs. While they were certainly better, some of the conditions were rough enough to make my feet swim in my otherwise vice like X-scream 10s.

In conclusion, I find suncrust, windcrust, mank, upsidedown snow, breakable crust, etc. tough to ski. While the perfect binding, boot, ski combo may make it better, it may also make a suitable setup ski like shit, because it is shit.

[khyber.pass]

I certainly notice the lack of ramp angle in my Dukes on Gotamas -- a very heavy sidecountry set-up, but hey, I like the down. I wish I had mounted the Dukes a few cms forward. I mounted on the line and it just feels too far back, with too much backseat. Still thinking about moving the set-up forward.

What's the ramp angle on Dynafit Vertical FT / STs?

I hope to get a Dynafit set-up going for next year, something like FTs on Movement Sluffs.

And *cough* I'm not sure why I'd get those funny G3 bindings, given they are heavier *cough* (isn't this the binding you are alluding to, Lee?).

[GeezerSteve]

the main reason for the lack of ramp angles in AT bindings is for easier, more natural movement, skinning, walking etc.
its funny how slow the euro manufacturers are in understanding that most of the recent increase in market demand is from those who walk up SO THEY CAN SKI DOWN. ITS NOT ABOUT WALKING AROUND. most, but not all, of the new users will give a little on the uphill to get better, more natural, downhill performance.

But Dynafits have the most ramp angle of currently available AT bindings yet Dynafits are the choice of most serious tourists (aka "those who walk around" if I may borrow your phrase) including those walkin' around guys Andrew McLean and Lowell Skoog, who use gear with a big uphill bias (AM on Scarpa F3's, Lowell on Trabs).

[Cosmic Suncloud]

But Dynafits have the most ramp angle of currently available AT bindings yet Dynafits are the choice of most serious tourists (aka "those who walk around" if I may borrow your phrase) including those walkin' around guys Andrew McLean and Lowell Skoog, who use gear with a big uphill bias (AM on Scarpa F3's, Lowell on Trabs).

you're absolutely right. the comment i made above was more just a general rant.

but who are these Mcclean and Skoog guys? are they freeriders?

[GeezerSteve]

What's the ramp angle on Dynafit Vertical FT / STs?

Dynafit Comfort/ST/FT ramp angle (measured in terms of degrees) is a function of boot length (longer boot length corresponds to lower ramp angle). I seem to recall that the fore-aft delta is around 9mm for the Comfort/ST/FT and a couple mm's less for the TLT. Dynafit maven Jonathon S would likely know or you could measure them.

[srsosbso]

I don't own dynafits (yet, ask me again in a week) but I don't think ramp angle issues apply because the downhill mode bears no relation to the touring mode. The position of the boot when locked in the pins determines the ramp angle, but in tour mode the pins are out of the way. One of the beauties of the binding, as I understand it. Traditional AT bindings keep the boot locked into the alpine position even when the binding is freed into tour mode.

[GeezerSteve]

srsosbso, Dynafits have some ramp angle in the flattest tour mode. It doesn't bother me even though I have a strong uphill/touring bias with my backcountry gear (e.g., F3's).

[L7]

Keep in mind that ramp angle will also affect and be affected by forward lean. Externally and internally in opposite ways but still connected.

Someone did a ramp angle (internal) study at Uof C in the summer and I went in for it. Basically you balanced on a boogie board and then they dropped a weight on it and with fancy movement measuring gizmos they calculated how long it took you to recover. This was done with 6 or 8 different configurations in the boot and compared the results. There was no ramp angle on the board you stood on and you weren't clamped in to bindings or anything.

She said I had one of the lowest ramp angles in my boots that she had seen (Atomic RT). Building up the ramp angle felt brutal. I guess it was still summer but I felt like I couldn't even ski in these things. I was quite surprised by it. As she got the boots back to their normal I got dramatically better and she thought it was a matter of just being used to it. However at a flat or even negative ramp angle in the boot I was even measurably a bit better which surprised her and me.

I wanted to test again in a second boot with similar ramp angle but less forward lean to see that impact but I couldn't get a hold of the boots in time. She was supposed to follow up in the winter but I haven't heard from her. I'm guessing a ramp angle in the binding would have made the negative internal angle feel badly.

That's how it worked out for me but my guess is she saw hugely different results for different people. I also don't think she had considered the impact of forward lean on each boot and skier. It did shock me though just how dramatically the internal ramp angle could change ability to balance.

[addict]

I don't notice, but I've always skied in alpine boots. Whether it be fritschis, dukes, rossis or 916s I've never felt different, even on the same ski/boot combo. I do have the lean of my boots totally forward, but have also tried heel lifts which I hated.

Interestingly changing the length of my poles has always had a WAY more noticeable effect on my skiing than binding ramp angles.

[D(C)]

On my race skis, I've added shims under the toes of my bindings to flatten the ramp angle. I find that on race skis, lifting the toe makes it easier to pressure the front of the skis since you don't need to move as far forward before engaging. However, I find that a flatter ramp angle makes skis demanding in conditions where you need to back off the tips and steer a bit more, like in softer snow and tighter spots. On my non-race skis, I'll stick to the ramp angle stock on my alpine bindings.

As a test, I was trying to come up with a combination of lifters for my 916s on my SS Pros. I tried a setup with an essentially flat ramp angle (bigger toe lifter than heel lifter by about 3 mm). Switching back to the stock ramp angle made the skis much more nimble but a bit less carvy.

[spicy cha cha]

ramp angle inside and outside the boot do two different things.

inside the boot changes change the foot to tibia angle.
...
If you move the finger or thumb, that is the boots internal angle.

also the internal angle changes also result in boot fit changes.

how do you increase forward lean of a boot (beyond the boot's own forward lean adjustment)?
Do you shim the back of the liner cuff? seems like it would be difficult to maintain a smooth shim-shell interface around the Achilles

[mntlion]

how do you increase forward lean of a boot (beyond the boot's own forward lean adjustment)?
Do you shim the back of the liner cuff? seems like it would be difficult to maintain a smooth shim-shell interface around the Achilles

most of the time you can just add a shim to the back of the boots shell, they are usually 3-6 inches long and tapered. Will push you 5-20mm forward, as measured from the top of the boot.

You also have the liner to help pad and even out the shim, adn they are just plastic, grind as needed

[spicy cha cha]

do you need to glue them?

where can I find some?

[muted]

I don't notice ramp angle in deep powder. On hardpack it's real obvious.

My problem was my regular bindings, Tyrolia, have about 8mm of ramp. I've skied these bindings for 8 years and my skiing has adjusted to it. So when I bought Dukes, I had to get an 8mm shim for my boots because I couldn't really work the ski like I'm used to. But now when I go back to my Tyrolias, I have 16mm of ramp. Not good.

There is no way in hell I'm going to remember to switch shims every time I switch skis. And If I did, I'd lose or misplace those shims eventually. So I'm kinda screwed unless I just ski the Dukes in powder....which is not a bad plan.

So if bindings had one universal ramp angle, I would be happy.

[jondrums]

Someone did a ramp angle (internal) study at Uof C in the summer and I went in for it. Basically you balanced on a boogie board ...

sounds like an interesting study, except that it sounds like it was performed on a level platform. The vast majority of alpine skiing is done on downward sloped surfaces...

[mntlion]

do you need to glue them?

where can I find some?

they usually are Tnutted to the back of hte shell (use the power strap hole?)

most boot fitting stores will have a pile of them. They are removed from boots for people with cankles or to make a boot more upright.

If you can't find some local, email me My store can set you up with some

dave@fitcentre.ca