Flat tail vs. tail rocker performance

[Neaps]

I've read multiple times that some people will never ski anything without full rocker again. So this question comes to mind.

I'm curious if those with tail rocker prefer this design over a flat tail in a variety of conditions?

I have been making two assumption without actually skiing anything with tail rocker.

1.) That flat tailed skis handle most conditions and ski better overall than those with tail rocker.

2.) That tail rocker is designed with a purpose in mind; skiing / landing switch. And if you don't do this then don't bother getting tail rocker.

[hop]

tip rocker = all the time please

tail rocker = not necessary, but if done well (a la obsethed) then sure, I'll take it for the slashability and surfability.

I found flat camber to be almost as slashable as subtle tail rocker, but I wouldn't choose a ski w/ full tail rocker (a la hellbent) for my daily driver.

[Neaps]

Would anyone choose a ski with tail rocker as their daily driver? Or are my assumptions correct? I would imagine there are lots of people who have skied full rocker skis and and can add there opinions.

[XtrPickels]

As stated by Hop
The tail rocker adds "slash and surfability" both of those attributes are applicable when skiing forward, which negates your second point.
The first point is subjective.

Tail rocker reduces running length and adds manuverability. Too much could cause fore-aft balance issues, which is one reason people would not choose a ski with alot of tail rocker as an everyday driver. Skis like the obsethed which do have tail rocker, albeit less, can be used as daily drivers with a favorable cost benefit ratio.

[hafilax]

Your brush is too broad and your assumptions are incorrect. 1) What do you mean by 'most conditions'? 2) Tail rocker is not exclusively for riding switch. It serves a number of purposes and has a big effect on the deep snow performance and turning characteristics.

It's not just full rocker vs conventional. There is every shade in between from full rocker, tip and tail rocker with conventional to flat camber (oxymoron?) in the middle, tip rocker to conventional or flat camber and flat tail, all the way to DH designs.

More important than the tail rocker itself is the overall design goal of the ski. Most with tail rocker are for deep snow but there are some that are more all rounders than others. If powder performance is number one then a tail rockered ski might be the best in 'most conditions'.

[Neaps]

I understand it is a broad question and quite subjective. You guys both have cleared things up for me. Again, my questions do come from my own ignorance on tail rocker, and not having skied a variety of new shapes.

I was thinking about the differences after seeing the threads about which ski to get : jj or czar, or obsethed vs. czar. Two different full rockered ski vs. the flat tail czar. I responded in those threads, yet based my response on unexperienced assumptions, which I now wanted to clear up.

Pretty much sounds like there are a lot of different factors to think about if your deciding on a full rocker vs. flat tail. I wanted to dismiss tail rocker as a switch skiing only benifit, but it sounds like I would have a lot of fun on one even without going switch.

[JimLad]

Rockered tails make them very easy to slash, and throw the ski sideways. A flat tail wil add more stability (at speed in pow it rocks) but reduces the maneuverability, especially at slow speeds. I had pontoons last year and swapped them out for salomon rockers this winter. The toons were much easier in tight trees, but I like the more precise feel of the rockers overall. I have yet to get them on some steep, deep lines though (Ullr has forsaken us )

[MultiVerse]

Just agreeing with everything everyone else has said about rockered skis. A fully rockered ski will turn you into a super-hero in tight situations as long as the snow is a couple of inches deep and, for me anyway, is equally as stable as a flat tail in the pow. The flat tail hybrid model really shines on days when the snow is both soft and hard.

A rockered tip is also often accompanied by a bullet-nosed tip which is very helpful when an ice crust exists verses a traditional shovel which will hook & grab. In these conditions, I’d also go for a pintail if full on reverse/reverse tip & tail rocker is not an option.

I’m not affiliated with or even know these guys but I believe they offer a mag discount and if you were planning a trip to Utah, renting a DPS Lotus 138 and a Lhasa Pow would be revelatory:

http://www.wasatchpowderskis.com/skis.html

[Bullet]

Personal preference - I don't like rocker tails. But I'm not much into pivot, swishy skiing. I prefer a more traditional tail that I can work at the end of the turn. I find it more responsive, quicker, and more agile than a rocker tail that just washes out. That's been my experience. Guess it depends on how you learned to ski.

[Shorty_J]

http://www.porterstahoe.com/istar.as...d=536253!SALOM

I don't work there... just found this deal.

[Huckin eh?]

Rocker tails uuuuuuum, well, they Rock!

They make straightlining in deep pow faster and help you float above and keep moving when making it over flats.

They also anchor in the snow nicely when skinning up in deep snow!

[corn dog]

Rockered tails make them very easy to slash, and throw the ski sideways. A flat tail wil add more stability (at speed in pow it rocks) but reduces the maneuverability, especially at slow speeds.

Yes, I've been rather surprised at how slowly yet fluidly I can ski on 186 EHPs, this is cool for exploring tighter trees than I would venture into on a burly trad shaped ski. They do wheelie out rather easily if you try and sit on the tail/throw on the brakes, they make you ski balanced.

[spindrift]

All 4 skiers in my family are using either Hell Bents or EP Pros for daily skiing. Including on firm groomer days. Everyone has other choices. But the only ones to come off the wall in recent history also had tip & tail rocker (Praxis & Kuro).

At least from my POV, I can't imagine ever getting another ski without both tip and tail rocker. So many more options on the fly. And if I want "support", they roll easily (no resistance from camber) and the contact surface or edge grows smoothly & predictably from the middle - and releases back that way. I don't understand why someone would want a ski with the front bent into the turn shape, but the back demanding management to bend it --- and demanding management of any potential catchiness. I wouldn't mind a slightly thinner option for all round use. And I'm curious about some of the recurve designs (notably JJ). But I'm 100% sold on tip & tail rocker for the kind of skiing I do...

[JimLad]

Well a flat tail keeps you locked into the turn rather than sliding out and the tip rocker makes it easy to initiate the turn. Plus I can still get the rockers sideways and dump speed where I need to (in deep snow, in hard bumps its not so easy but they always suck). I used to find my toons too turny at speed (also due to the soft flex).

[spindrift]

Assuming a well designed ski and a non-stupid mountpoint choice, why do you think a ski with tail rocker won't hold a turn?

Or do folks insist on driving or "skiing through" the tips on skis that are not meant to be skied that way - or that just plain can not be skied that way??????

[Spats]

Assuming a well designed ski and a non-stupid mountpoint choice, why do you think a ski with tail rocker won't hold a turn?

Or do folks insist on driving or "skiing through" the tips on skis that are not meant to be skied that way - or that just plain can not be skied that way??????

Based on the number of people here who demand ridiculously, painfully stiff boots, I'd say the answer is "yes".

[addict]

FWIW, I skied Line EPs a couple days ago in 20cm of fresh. Hated them with a passion, but I LOVE my flat tailed, rockered tip praxis big mtns. Yes, they are complete opposites, and the EP doesn't remotely suit my style or size. But hey, some people love them. Horses + courses.

(I also didn't like spatulas, but I presume you're talking trad sidecut skis?)

[gunniride]

Having had both a pair of Praxis Powders, and now the Obsethed, I'd say I prefer less tail rocker. While I enjoyed the Praxis in Powder and Crud, I did find I'd "wheelie out" on landings sometimes. Yes, they help you learn to ski in a centered manner, but sometimes you get sloppy. The Obsethed are a perfect mixture of the trad/rockered, you can smear turns, or rail turns, and there is a fair amount of tail to support you if you end up in the back seat off a landing...

If you are asking this question, you probably would be happy with the in-between skis- Obsethed, Czar, etc.

[mtskier]

i'll put in my vote for the ehp 186 as a ski with the right amount of tail rocker for an everyday ski. surf pow and are great in the trees.

[vertigoing]

there is a tradeoff between maneuverability and stability (i.e. slashability vs wheelie effect) in pow, the sweet spot of which seems to fall towards less tail rocker.

the dps lotus 138 for example has had 3 rocker designs, each subsequent one having less tail rocker and more tip rocker.

as it has already been said, tail rocker doesn't do much for you outside of pow, except reduce running length. that said if the ski has all the other qualities you are looking for, then go for it.

[wizard604]

I was sking the kuros recently in boot deep pow wandered off to an area which looked like fresh untracked. As I was skiing it, I heard crackling sounds as I swooped through it. I stopped part way down to see what was going on & realized that I just skied through an area of pow with a 1/2" of wind crust on top. Normally skiing breakable crust would be a chore, but with tip & tail rocker, it's actually fun!

You're not locked into a turn & can carve in it without having to pop up out of the crust to make your turns. The rocker tips & tails which make it so floaty in pow also come into play in variable conditions.

[verbier61]

hop seconded................
the advantage of a rocker/rocker (lotuses 138 in my case) over a rocker/regular (09 big daddies in my case) is restricted to truly epic days

[Sinfield]

Throw me into the camp that never skis switch and didn't think he'd give a shit about tail rocker.

I've always been a traditional ski shape kind of guy, because I really love the feel of a stiff ski hooking up and just milking the entire edge, tail included. That said, I've really come to enjoy the tail rocker on my S7's. I've found that in crud, shallow fresh, and even groomers, I can still get the edge to hook up really well, and milk the tails like I can on my other more traditional skis, with the caveat that it takes a little more finesse...if I'm skiing balanced and well, I never notice the tails washing out, even on hardpack. If I'm not balance and putting too much pressure on the tails without getting the edges to bite, then yeah they're going to slarve.

The really cool thing to me about tail rocker is that it allows you to really carve a wide variety of turn shapes. If I want to milk the tails in a big, hooked up GS turn, I can. If i want to surf or slash, I can. If I want to pivot really fast in tight trees or chutes, I can. I feel like the extra attention it takes to really power the tails is vaslty offset by the skis ability to paint a variety of turn radii in a variety of conditions.

More and more I'm finding that I'm grabbing the S7's over the other skis in my quiver, even on days when they are theoretically the least fun of the bunch (groomers, etc).

[splat]

When we first made the Bros, we wanted a semi-twin tip in the tail for scissoring tight chutes, if necessary. However, I find us making flat tailed skis for guides quite a bit now, since European guides are prohibited from twins/semi-twins/rockered tails because they don't plant as well for rapping off your skis, if necessary.

[WhiteHunter]

So is a pintail more or less the happy medium between a traditional flat tail and the rockered tail? Doesn't the pintial allow you to release out of a turn more easily than a tradional (wider) flat tail and also allow more relative slashability? Is the pintail just another means to the same end as the tail rocker, just to a slightly lesser degree. The tradeoff being more control on firmer snow conditions? I'm curious after having skied the Lhasa but not getting a chance to try anything with a tail rocker yet.