espresso making mags?

[old goat]

nope, flow control is the differentiator.

yesterday i pulled a 110 second shot for shits and giggles. 18g in, 30g out, 202f. a great natural ethiopian.

i think i let it go a little long - probably 5-10 seconds long - but still, it was beautiful espresso, easily better than i could buy within 100 miles of here.

that's the thing about flow control - i do a low pressure (max 1 bar) pre-infusion for 25 seconds, then kill the pump for 20 seconds, then build pressure for the next 10 seconds, then taper it down for as long as i want until i get the desired shot volume. the declining shot pressure keeps the shot from overextracting, and the pre-infusion prevents channeling and creates a good, even bloom.

i haven't had a shot run quicker than 55 seconds in two years now, and i probably average 70 seconds.

That's how I ski.

[Doremite]

@tgapp. Helpful as usual. I am intrigued by flow control. The pump is running really loud on my Expobar and replaced it about 18 months ago and (separate issue) it is again not releasing pressure out of the group head as efficiently as it should. About a year ago I rebuilt part of the E61 to address a similar problem. Probably pulled over 10,000 shots with this thing and getting antsy for an upgrade. Hesitant to just go w a flow control upgrade given how it’s behaving over the last 6 months. Why pay $250 for an upgrade when you could pay $2,500 for a new set up instead???? I don’t know……

[MontuckyFried]

Aaaaand now I'm lost again...



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[PNWbrit]

I feel like I'm probably going to take a beating for this but; does anyone have reccos for fully automatic espresso machines that can make milk drinks? And in case I'm getting the verbiage wrong, I mean press a button and get a fully made drink. Can you get something reliable that makes decent shots/drinks that doesn't cost a fortune?

My wife is not interested in learning how to pull a shot or make a latte on the current machine, and I'm never around when she wants one, so.....exploring options.

Delonghi

We've beaten on ours for years and it still works like new.

Have another at our cabin too and its stood up to renters using it.

[MontuckyFried]

Delonghi

We've beaten on ours for years and it still works like new.

Have another at our cabin too and its stood up to renters using it.

You're gonna have to be a bit more specific than that please. DeLonghi makes everything from $99 Walmart junk to nice >$1000 machines.

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[zion zig zag]

Delonghi

We've beaten on ours for years and it still works like new.

Have another at our cabin too and its stood up to renters using it.

Nice, thank you. Any idea what model? Anything other than cleaning and descaling in its life, like repairs?

[PNWbrit]

You're gonna have to be a bit more specific than that please. DeLonghi makes everything from $99 Walmart junk to nice >$1000 machines.

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Their MAGNIFICA model(s)

[PNWbrit]

Nice, thank you. Any idea what model? Anything other than cleaning and descaling in its life, like repairs?

Magnifica.

Only repair we've needed was someone putting ground coffee and then water into beans container.

The rest is easy.

[MontuckyFried]

Their MAGNIFICA model(s)

Ooh, fancy.

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[PNWbrit]

Ooh, fancy.

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Over thousands of days being able to hit a button and get great coffee it doesn't seem so fancy.

[neufox47]

Nah so 70 seconds is total shot time, including the bloom. That might be a little misleading, but since extraction starts when water hits coffee, it's still a fair measurement of shot time. Plus by the end of that bloom period there is already espresso drips coming out. I can record a video if it would be helpful.

The rationale is that a bloom allows for a much more even extraction, creating time for the coffee to fully offgas before extraction starts in earnest. In terms of pressure, it's like 1-2 bar for the first 40 seconds (including bloom), then 9 bars for 7-10 seconds, then a gradual draw down for the next 20-30 seconds. By the time I kill the pump I'm around 2 to 3 bar usually.

Ratios are controversial, and there's a lot that's been written about them. My philosophy is to let the extraction be your guide - kill the pump either just before or just after the shot blonds. 3:1 is a little watery but can be delicious, sometimes I'll go up to 4:1 depending on the coffee. Of course, 2:1 and even 1.25:1 ristrettos can be delicious too. No dogma here.


Here's that same Ecuadorian coffee but a much shittier rendition of it. Oh well. 18.5 in, 44 out, 72 seconds, not as tasty as this morning's. You can see the blonding - should have killed it sooner if I was paying attention. Slight bittering in the cup. Less fruit, more chocolate.

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Would you change your approach at all on a manual, in this case flair 58?


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[tgapp]

@tgapp. Helpful as usual. I am intrigued by flow control. The pump is running really loud on my Expobar and replaced it about 18 months ago and (separate issue) it is again not releasing pressure out of the group head as efficiently as it should. About a year ago I rebuilt part of the E61 to address a similar problem. Probably pulled over 10,000 shots with this thing and getting antsy for an upgrade. Hesitant to just go w a flow control upgrade given how it’s behaving over the last 6 months. Why pay $250 for an upgrade when you could pay $2,500 for a new set up instead???? I don’t know……

Yeah, I wouldn't invest in a flow control in a machine like that. Save your money for a nicer set-up IMO... if pressure isn't releasing it could be the solenoid or it could the brew pin or it could be a lot of other things...but yeah, just get a profiler for your next machine.

For the non-nerds out there, why flow control is such a game changer.

When you roast coffee, it produces a ton of co2 that gets trapped in the beans. That co2 stays in the ground coffee and can keep the coffee from getting properly saturated with water when you brew it. You can see this for yourself if you brew in a french press or a pourover and the coffee is super bubbly - those bubbles keep the coffee from extracting evenly. Making sure all the coffee gets wet is called pre-infusion or sometimes blooming.

When you brew french press or pourover, you can just stir and smash those bubbles and get the coffee all wet. Not so with espresso - so it becomes critical that you pre-wet the coffee slowly and evenly before trying to extract it. Older machines were designed to do this with a brew chamber that would slowly fill with water until a pressure valve is basically tripped, at which point pressure builds and the shot gets pulled - this would take anywhere from 25 to 39 seconds, on average. You don't have any control over this process - it's on or off, with the size and shape of the brew chamber dictating how the coffee pre-infuses - so it's the exact same for light or dark coffees, and these machines were designed with a cafe in mind (meaning - fast pre-infusion times for fast turnover of drinks). Turns out this isn't optimal extraction, but it works pretty damn well for most coffees.

A flow control machine (or a shot profiler) basically works by putting a valve at the top of the brew chamber which allows you to control how fast water is moving into the brew chamber. You can see this in dcpnz's picture - it's a small black knob in the center top of the machine (above a big old hex nut). This valve allows you to slow down (and even stop) the extraction process by controlling how quickly the water is poured into the espresso puck.

Just like in the beginning - too much water will create an uneven extraction - too much pressure towards the end of a shot will tend to extract too many bittering compounds. It'll make your espresso taste like an ash tray, after about 35 seconds on average. So a flow control valve also helps with that side of the extraction curve, allowing for you to slowly back off of the pressure in the group head so that the coffee doesn't over-extract and become bitter. So while a flow profiled shot runs longer, it's at max pressure for proportionally less time than a standard machine - I'm only at 9 bars or whatever for 10 seconds before I start backing off slowly. Most of the shot is at far less than 9 bars.

So yeah, unless your machine has flow control, a $500 machine will make pretty much the same espresso as a $5000 machine. Flow control changes that equation significantly though, as the extraction curve looks nothing like that of a traditional machine where the pump is either on or off.

[tgapp]

Would you change your approach at all on a manual, in this case flair 58?


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No - ha, the whole thing is, a flow profiler is just trying to recreate what a lever does by design. I would add water to your group head, step away for a second, max pressure for 5-10 seconds, and then ease up on the pressure you're applying until you hit blonding or max shot volume. My guess is the total shot time will be a little less but the same general idea applies.

How are you liking your flair58? Really cool machine

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[neufox47]

No - ha, the whole thing is, a flow profiler is just trying to recreate what a lever does by design. I would add water to your group head, step away for a second, max pressure for 5-10 seconds, and then ease up on the pressure you're applying until you hit blonding or max shot volume. My guess is the total shot time will be a little less but the same general idea applies.

How are you liking your flair58? Really cool machine

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I like it. Still getting it dialed though. I didn’t realize that adding the water on its own was enough to start the bloom / penetrate the puck. I’ve been either applying 1-2 bar for an extended time or going to 5 then waiting 10-30 seconds before hitting 9 -10 for 10 seconds then backing down. Any good resources specific to lever machines you know of?

Right now I think my roast and grinder are my weakest links. Now I just need to drop $4k on a new roaster and espresso grinder. : ).

[Doremite]

I like it. Still getting it dialed though. I didn’t realize that adding the water on its own was enough to start the bloom / penetrate the puck. I’ve been either applying 1-2 bar for an extended time or going to 5 then waiting 10-30 seconds before hitting 9 -10 for 10 seconds then backing down. Any good resources specific to lever machines you know of?

Right now I think my roast and grinder are my weakest links. Now I just need to drop $4k on a new roaster and espresso grinder. : ).

I use “pre-wetting” with my E61. I just gently shower the puck for ~5 seconds at zero bars of pressure. Wait a few seconds to allow for seeping penetration and then I crank the lever. I can’t say this truly matters to shot flavor but I’ve found no downside to it and hope it aids more even extraction. Although I have read the E61 does this on its own as it gently builds pressure by design. It sounds like what you are already doing is the preferred pre-infusion approach.

The only true difference I’ve found is the pucks pop out of the portafilter cleanly post extraction and hold shape in the compost bin. No pre-wetting and the puck sticks to the portafilter and requires a bit more aggression to release (at times scooping necessary) so this discovery adds convenience if nothing else.

Tgapp has me jonesing for the Lelit Bianca so I hear you on foolish budget contemplations. I pull ~1,500 shots a year so that is making me think I am not totally crazy and have gotten about a decade out of my Expobar Office Lever (10-15K shots later I stew on whether it suffices absent flow control). If I get a decade out of the Bianca it works out to $20/month!

[tgapp]

https://youtu.be/MayOpUb6MO0

For those interested I made a quick workflow video showing how I pull a shot. I didn't bother cleaning up my work area (sorry, mental health is a bitch) and it's kinda hard to do some things with a phone in your hand.

A few notes:

-18.5g in (estimated, +/- .25g), 45g out, 202f, 78 seconds
- Niche zero was on a setting of 12. For reference, 15 is the standard espresso setting on that grinder, but because of how light this coffee is, I grind it a fair bit finer.
- in hindsight I should have drawed down a little quicker and cut the pump maybe 3-5 seconds sooner but that's just me being nitpicky. I'd like to be closer to 40g on this one.
- This is the coffee I used:

https://thecaptainscoffee.com/produc...a-taisha-blend

In the cup it tastes like milk chocolate dipped candied oranges. Sweet, sour, fruit forward, chocolate, little bit of bitterness. Super satisfying. I roasted it very light over a long period of time, creating sweetness without losing the citrus acidity or floral notes.

@Doremite, here is a killer deal on a Bianca. I work in Chicago and could help facilitate it.

https://www.home-barista.com/buysell...go-t79343.html

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[Doremite]

Helpful video, man. Thanks for posting it up. Best crema porn on the interwebz right here!

Too generous on the facilitation offer but greatly appreciated!

Ironically my pump just died about 25 seconds into extraction as a result of my reservoir getting too low. Normally I’d be all pissy about wasting a shot but I just let it the existing pressure flow through the puck for about 10 seconds and then grabbed the cup. 17g in, 34 out about 35 second extraction time and the shot tastes amazing. Impromptu flow control!

[MontuckyFried]

Thanks for the video!!! Now I want flow control. Haha. That's straight perfection. Beautiful shot.

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[bennymac]

super helpful to see the video - way less complicated than i imagined

[tgapp]

I suck at cappuccino art

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[jackattack]

nice mug. I didn't know they had swag.

[dcpnz]

That’s a whole nother rabbit hole….

This is one of my better efforts - don’t ask what it’s supposed to be.

[dcpnz]

have you started to fuck with the 70+ second extractions it's capable of?

Trying but not quite that long just yet - I’m mostly around 45/50 seconds - slow preinfusion ~25 sec, build pressure, hold it, then taper down again over another 25 or so.

I think my grinder is one factor limiting what I can really experiment with at the moment though

[Benny Profane]

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? We’ve had a Jura super automatic for at least a decade. So far it’s made 21,097 cups. Cleaning consists of emptying the grounds every few days and running a cleaning solution and descaling every few months. Less work than a drip coffee machine.

Probably about time to replace. I’ve rebuilt the brew group a couple of times over the years. Seems like only the high end Juras are still Swiss made. Also been looking at Gaggia machines. We ran the calculations recently and cost per cup over the years including repairs, cleaning supplies and coffee has it running at just under $0.30 a cup for great tasting coffee, espresso, and lattes. It took us a bit to find the best beans but it’s been a great setup. Quick and easy. I know those aficionados in this thread won’t be fans, but it works for us.

Well, first, milk. Sorry, that's gotta be an awesome robot cleaning system to clean the milk part. Its fucking milk. I dunno about you, but I am extra careful around milk. So are most commercial establishments.

But, second, the one thing I've learned with my little Breville Bambino is to clean as much of the residue from the espresso draw process as possible. That stuff can get nasty, quick.

So, anyway, how do you really clean one of those el grandes do everything machines, because, as much as I know, you have to do it a lot. In my kitchen, every fucking time. Sure, I scale and clean the head when needed, but, that other stuff?

[jm2e]

That’s a whole nother rabbit hole….

This is one of my better efforts - don’t ask what it’s supposed to be.

Bok Choy?


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