espresso making mags?

[MakeFast]

As far as use, it'd be for me and maybe sometimes the g/f; pulling doubles each. I don't drink milk at all so steaming really isn't important to me. The g/f likes lattes, but this is my purchase so, again, the steaming won't be used much, if at all. The machine is solely for personal use, not parties or work functions.
[clip]
I've seen the Achille and the Pavoni retailed $750-$950 (more than I wanted to spend but not completely out of the realm of possibility). I really liked the price of the Gaggia Factory at $550. Grinder will be about $250 (hopefully stepless, but they're more expensive too).

If I was you, I would go for the Pavoni. A few reasons:

1) The big step up in the Achille (ignoring that it is a different 'beast' [ie., HX v. Heat-sink lever], but since you are only looking at pulling 2-4 shots at a time) is that you can steam milk right before or after you pull a shot (it needs no recovery time - I mean, in theory you could steam at the same time you were pulling a shot, but since your hand is on the lever...that isn't going to happen). The pavoni will need some recovery time, but you are talking 30-45 seconds (maybe? its been awhile since I have used one).

2) Lever machines can produce exceptional espresso. Some prefer the flavor profile (all the different types of machines produce slightly different profiles).

3) If you buy a used Pavoni and you hate making your own espresso, you can recoup all of your expenses. The Pavoni's are also very easy to service and there are ample replacement part available very cheaply.

4) You were initially wanting to buy a Factory, this is exactly the same machine.

5) The Pavoni's are prettier (IMO) than the Achille - classically Italian.

6) It leaves way more money to buy a stupendous grinder. This is far more important than the espresso machine. Also, if you buy a nice, stepless grinder you will not need to upgrade it (you may want to at some point, but you won't need to) - so if you decide you would prefer a pump machine then you won't have to upgrade both. Buying my Mazzer Mini was one of my best purchases (granted I got it for $200 on coffeegeek) and I went through 3 machines since then, but kept the same grinder.

Just my .02 - you would be very happy with either machine.



2-czech:
I will agree with everything you said, but it isn't always economical to buy nice coffee from Stumptown, Counter Culture, etc. Before living in PDX it cost $20 a pound to get CC coffee (although it was quite a treat when I did) and I couldn't justify that. None of my green beans cost more than $6/lb. so it is much easier for me to play around with green beans. Its not as good as stumptown, but its way better than 85% of the crap out there (even in a coffee town like portland).

[couloirman]

let me know if you decide to sell that hottop matt

[iscariot]

If I was you, I would go for the Pavoni. A few reasons:

1) The big step up in the Achille (ignoring that it is a different 'beast' [ie., HX v. Heat-sink lever], but since you are only looking at pulling 2-4 shots at a time) is that you can steam milk right before or after you pull a shot (it needs no recovery time - I mean, in theory you could steam at the same time you were pulling a shot, but since your hand is on the lever...that isn't going to happen). The pavoni will need some recovery time, but you are talking 30-45 seconds (maybe? its been awhile since I have used one).

2) Lever machines can produce exceptional espresso. Some prefer the flavor profile (all the different types of machines produce slightly different profiles).

3) If you buy a used Pavoni and you hate making your own espresso, you can recoup all of your expenses. The Pavoni's are also very easy to service and there are ample replacement part available very cheaply.

4) You were initially wanting to buy a Factory, this is exactly the same machine.

5) The Pavoni's are prettier (IMO) than the Achille - classically Italian.

6) It leaves way more money to buy a stupendous grinder. This is far more important than the espresso machine. Also, if you buy a nice, stepless grinder you will not need to upgrade it (you may want to at some point, but you won't need to) - so if you decide you would prefer a pump machine then you won't have to upgrade both. Buying my Mazzer Mini was one of my best purchases (granted I got it for $200 on coffeegeek) and I went through 3 machines since then, but kept the same grinder.

Just my .02 - you would be very happy with either machine.

Thanks mattw, I appreciate all the effort and detail. Time to check out the sale link you posted earlier...

[MakeFast]

let me know if you decide to sell that hottop matt

Will do, it will likely be very shortly after we move into a new place (which will be very shortly after I find a job).

Saw your thread on HB - did you end up returning the factory or trying to fix it?

Thanks mattw, I appreciate all the effort and detail. Time to check out the sale link you posted earlier...

Like I said - either machine will rock, just kinda different strokes. The great thing about used espresso gear (especially lever machines) is that nothing really 'wears out' - replace a few gaskets every now and then (which I will be doing soon with my Cremina, but its the first time in almost 40 years) and it will last forever.

[iscariot]

Okay so one more set of questions, (thank you all for your patience and advice, it is greatly appreciated):

If I can get a new (unused) Factory for cheap (half the price of a new Pavoni ala the well documented WLL deal on HB) or I could get the Pavoni new for $950, what would you recommend?


As I understand it, the Gaggia Factory 106 is the same as the LaPavoni Europicolla with regard to replacement parts,...are all of the parts interchangeable? If they are not, which parts are not? And are replacement parts available given the Factory is discontinued?


Mattw, thanks for your time and effort with this. I just want to make sure I do it right the first time as I'm a student and this is a bit of an investment for me. I can't afford to buy it twice.

[couloirman]

Okay so one more set of questions, (thank you all for your patience and advice, it is greatly appreciated):

If I can get a new (unused) Factory for cheap (half the price of a new Pavoni ala the well documented WLL deal on HB) or I could get the Pavoni new for $950, what would you recommend?


As I understand it, the Gaggia Factory 106 is the same as the LaPavoni Europicolla with regard to replacement parts,...are all of the parts interchangeable? If they are not, which parts are not? And are replacement parts available given the Factory is discontinued?


Mattw, thanks for your time and effort with this. I just want to make sure I do it right the first time as I'm a student and this is a bit of an investment for me. I can't afford to buy it twice.

dont get the pavoni new. since they last forever there really isn't much of a reason not to buy used for half price if you worry about the factory. Spend the extra money on a better grinder.

has anyone used the baratza vario? having one grinder for both french press and lever would be sweet.

[pechelman]

WLL doesn't carry the gaskets I need, so Ive gotta send the whole machine back to get swapped out because of some simple rubber rings. Wonder how long Ill be waiting this time?

Any tips for roasting for espresso? Favorite blends? Favorite single origins? Favorite place to get greens besides sweet marias?

bummer on the seals, but you could have done this yourself
www.orphaneespresso.com carries all the seals you need.

tips for roasting espresso?
throw it in your roaster and stop it right when 2nd crack begins to start.
Thats a good starting point.
For blends, Ive been digging my mix of 50% elsal matalapa, 25% yemen mokka harasi, and 25% sumatra tankengon classic.
I also like doing things like Sumatra/Ethiopia/Brazil.
Sometimes I add a touch of robusta. Whatever strikes my mood.
Roasting in small batches has it advantages so you can always try something new.

For single origins, there are a lot that I like, but for the most part, you will end up drinking something "unbalanced". Its fun though and nice to taste the flavors from one bean\crop\location. Generally and lately I gravitate toward SO's of Panama, Yemen, and cleaner WP's Sumatras.
Ethiopias are fun too, but tend to be very very fruity which not everyone likes. Ive had some that are like drinking chocolate, strawberry marmalades...even at roast levels of FC+.

The La Pavoni Europiccola is EXACTLY the same internals as the Factory,

This is ONLY correct for post-millenium Europiccolas and Gaggia Factory 105s. This is not true for everything else.
pre-millenium Pavonis use a 49mm PF, whereas all factory's use a 51mm. Furthermore, because of this difference, the groupheads are also different. Lastly, Europiccolas are the "8 cup" boiler, whereas the Gaggia Factory 106 we've been discussing here is the "16 cup", more similar to the Pavoni Professionals made post millenium.

Gaggia Achilles.

Suggestions?

my suggestion is to be careful with an achille.
they look like great machines, but they are documented to have lots of problems, from leaking seals to cracking the plastic grouphead sleeve.

orphan espresso carries what you need to fix them though.
I think it says something gaggia has already discontinued it.

Also, while you might think a 58mm PF\group is desirable, I think the opposite. Ive found my 45 and 51mm PFs to be infinitely more forgiving than my larger 58mm machien i never use anymore.
The only real benefit i think a 58mm has is temperature stability and more readily available parts. (ie tampers, pf holders, baskets, etc)

Nothing against roasting at home but you cant achieve the same quality and homogenity of roast as with a big machine. The difference in taste between roasting on home sample roaster (iRoast, Behmore, GeneCafe) and our regular machine (Joper 15kg) is huge ...

ive gone to specialty coffee places that roast daily and ive tried their stuff. Personally, the flavor profile doesnt suit my preferences. Its more muted and dull. What some people might favorably refer to as mellow and round. I like to taste the nuances and clarity, and thats something only a FAST roasting method can produce.

Basically, to each their own, but ive never found coffee elsewhere that I liked more than my own...even with my little home roasting setup.

1) The pavoni will need some recovery time, but you are talking 30-45 seconds (maybe? its been awhile since I have used one).

4) You were initially wanting to buy a Factory, this is exactly the same machine.

5) The Pavoni's are prettier (IMO) than the Achille - classically Italian.

6) It leaves way more money to buy a stupendous grinder. This is far more important than the espresso machine. Also, if you buy a nice, stepless grinder you will not need to upgrade it (you may want to at some point, but you won't need to) - so if you decide you would prefer a pump machine then you won't have to upgrade both. Buying my Mazzer Mini was one of my best purchases (granted I got it for $200 on coffeegeek) and I went through 3 machines since then, but kept the same grinder.

.

1) only pavoni euro's need recovery. Pavoni pro's have only one switch, and due to the larger boiler size, always have steam ready to go. If i had 4 hands, I could pull a shot and steam milk all at the same time on my gaggia 106. (ie similar to pavoni pro)

Speaking about 4 hands....you could actually do both on a spring lever machine like an elektra or ponte vecchio.

4) i wont disagree, but the resevior is pretty cool on the achille, especially since you can just refill as you go and dont need to bleed boiler pressure and reheat.

6) maybe i dont know what im missing, but ive been continually impressed by my hand grinder. no clumping, no static, no loss grounds, easy to clean, infinitely adjustable, super even grind, small, quiet, etc etc etc.
I understand not everyone likes to grind by hand, but I pull 1 single shot a day. somtimes i do 2, but usually thats a weekend thing.

[couloirman]

bummer on the seals, but you could have done this yourself
www.orphaneespresso.com carries all the seals you need.

true, but then I would have to pay the $50 to fix it when it should have come in working order in the first place, I don't really think that should have to be my expense.

[pechelman]

yea, i hear ya

its either pay and get it fixed fast and DIY
or pay to ship it and be out your machine for an undisclosed amount of time.

bummer though
guess i was lucky with mine

and Ive not been impressed with the service from WLL either
they just dont respond unless its in reference to you spending money with them.

[MakeFast]

iscariot - Colouirman is right, don't buy a new Pavoni. They are constantly being sold used and almost never die (although you could burn out the heating coil, I guess). I wouldn't buy the Factory from WLL just so I wouldn't have to deal with WLL (but that is just me - given Colouirman's experience, I would be even more likely to stay away -- I don't mind fixing things, but when I buy something retail I expect it to work out of the box, otherwise I would buy it used).

And Pechelman is right about the hand grinders (I have 2 hand grinders and an electric currently) - they do a great job and are very inexpensive (relative to quality of grind). I assumed you wanted electric, but if you can put up with grinding your own you could probably get a Pavoni and a great grinder for about $500. But you would need to do some research on the hand grinders, I know for a while they were having some quality control issues and I don't know if they have sorted those issues out.

[roark]

todays sellout.woot.com - delonghi pump espresso maker. Any good? Or more accurately - worth $105? Not sure of I could deal with the name... makes me think of John Holmes... not exactly the image I want first thing in the am.

[Yonder_River]

todays sellout.woot.com - delonghi pump espresso maker. Any good? Or more accurately - worth $105? Not sure of I could deal with the name... makes me think of John Holmes... not exactly the image I want first thing in the am.

Was about to post here asking about this as well. Anyone have one?

http://sellout.woot.com/Default.aspx...2eb0b1d1babf58

[pechelman]

for 99$ it sounds like its a;
stainless boiler
dual t-stat
15bar pump

it does have a creama enahncer filter from what i can read, which sucks, but those are easy to hack up to make normal.

might be worth a shot (no pun intended)

[Yonder_River]

for 99$ it sounds like its a;
stainless boiler
dual t-stat
15bar pump

it does have a creama enahncer filter from what i can read, which sucks, but those are easy to hack up to make normal.

might be worth a shot (no pun intended)

ya, just bought it a few minutes ago, couldn't resist. what do you mean by crema enhanced filter and what's involved in "hacking it up"?

[Yonder_River]

ya, just bought it a few minutes ago, couldn't resist. what do you mean by crema enhanced filter and what's involved in "hacking it up"?

Ok, so purchased the Delonghi and wondering about grinders. Don't want to have to throw down for a super nice burr. I'm not religious about my espresso anymore so I can live without the shots I used to pull on the La Pavoni back when I worked at a shop. I can buy great beans a couple blocks away so I'm wondering if it's reasonable to have them grind them for me - probably wouldn't have the grounds more than a week or so at a time. Is the quality really diminished that much? I've never made a shot from anything but minutes old grind.

[pechelman]

the bottom of your filter basket from the inside will have a ton of holes
on the outside, it will have usually just one tiny one
this is so that little tiny hole always builds your pressure rather than you having to perfect your grind and tamp.
all you gotta do is take a dremel tool to the bottom side with the single side

and yea, do not grind eeverything all at once
dont grind if you're not going to use it in 15mins

[Yonder_River]

gotcha, thanks.

[Yonder_River]

Well, I've become officially addicted to researching coffee stuff at work lately.

Woot has the Breville 800ESXL on sale right now for $185 shipped (normally retails for $400). I'm thinking of selling the Delonghi pump I just bought and getting this. Close to pulling the trigger...anyone own one and can comment? It sounds like if you replace the basket, it's decent. Wish I could justify the purchase of a Gaggia Classic or Sylvia right now, but maybe in the future.

Just purchased the Ascaso I mini grinder so am stoked about that.

[pechelman]

i wouldnt get a breville since its a thermoblock machine

if you're really interested in a gaggia classic, I have a gaggia dose, which is very similar, Id sell you for around what that breville costs

havent used it in forever since getting my caravel and factory 106

[haydukelives]

i have made over 1500 doubles with it and i think its a great machine. got it for $100 and it was around $350 retail

if you use a turkish grind,you can clog the filter,but its reversible.

[couloirman]

my lever machine is finally here and working but Ive got a problem

My espresso tastes like crap. If I had to guess Id say the off flavor is that it is very sour, but Im not really sure. Heres my process:

Ive got good beans(terroir beans roasted 5 days ago), grind right before pulling up to the level of the top of the basket. I stir the grinds with a needle to break up clumps, and level off the top, tamp lightly but evenly around the whole thing until it looks nice, flat and even. Let out some false steam through the wand, and pull a shot of water through the machine to heat things up, then put the basket into the portafilter. I lift up and wait ~5 seconds then pull down until a drop or 2 comes out, pull the lever back up all the way and wait for ~10 seconds, then pull down the lever all the way with firm but even pressure. My last shot dripped only out of the right spout of the portafilter and took about 20 seconds to pull. The puck looked ok except for a space on one side of it where water looks like it got between the puck and the metal and allowed it to flow unevenly.

Help me, these shots are terrible even drowned with milk.

[Lurch]

Are you getting any crema in your shots? Also when you pull the leaver down wi0th no portafilter is the water coming out evenly disbursed or does it favor one location?

[pechelman]

my lever machine is finally here and working but Ive got a problem

My espresso tastes like crap. If I had to guess Id say the off flavor is that it is very sour, .

i didnt even need to read what you wrote.

if its sour, you are either doing one of two things (or both)
a) using very lightly roasted beans from someplace like kenya or high altitude central americans...ie these are very bright\sour\acidic coffees

b) you are underextracting the coffee, generally speaking, too low a temp, too low a pressure, too coarse a grind, etc


your procedure sounds relatively good.
First off, id throw the time guidelines out the window. Theyre really not that important. Ive had some horrible shots at 20-30 seconds, and then some of the best of my life around 45-60 with my old caravel. it is what it is, and just focus on blonding to know when to stop the extraction.
Focus on temp, grind\tamp, and pull.

Things Id do right away;

Id let your machine preheat a bit longer.
Whats your pressure gauge reading btw when it cycles off??

Flush water through your group and empty PF handle until you can start to hear the water to begin to almost flash boil. In boston, this means the water is really freaking hot, which is a bit too hot, but once you learn where this point is, you can back off a tad. Luckily, in Denver, Flashboiling is about 202-204*F, which is damn near perfect for pulling a shot.

Second

It sounds like your grind is very close to being dialed. Id say leave it alone. It also sounds like you're tamping in a method that promotes consistency which is good. It sounds to me like you may be raising the lever a bit too quickly and breaking the puck. (hence the cracking around one side where water can sneak past the coffee)

What Id do, raise the lever 75%, THEN lock in PF with the coffee.
Continue the raise, let fill with water for 5-10 seconds.
Do your pull for a few drops. and then SLOWLY raise the lever to top.
When you hear the chamber is full, begin your pull. No reason to wait around after the preinfusion.

Third
Dose by weight, not by volume. This is way more consistent and easy to figure out. Buy a cheap gram scale ~15-25$ that measures down to .01g and up to 1-200grams. For my singles, depending on the roast\grind, my machine is happiest around 8.25-8.75g of coffee.


really though, it sounds like youre doing a great job.
vary one thing at a time, and make noticable changes so you can really know what affects what.

id bet you anything though that this is a simple problem solved by the first two things; low brewing temp and a broken puck caused by raising the lever too quick. Id also wager that you're raising the lever slowly, so your issue is very easy to fix, and probably just a temperature issue.


fwiw, Ill let my machine preheat 15-20mins, which brings it to pressure and then cycles it probably 5-8 times before I even touch it. When i get to it after this time, before I flush water through it, the group head and PF are just slightly luke warm.

Before I pull my first shot, my PF is pretty hot and my group is almost scalding and the water out my grouphead has JUST begun to flash boil at Denver's altitude.


LASTLY
If its still to sour, dont be afraid to Start Dump your brew.
The sour\acidic\bright chemicals and compounds in coffee all come in the beginning part of the extraction.


Also, by sour, you do mean acidic and bright as opposed to bitter right?
Bitterness means something entirely different.

[MakeFast]

Ive got good beans(terroir beans roasted 5 days ago), grind right before pulling up to the level of the top of the basket. I stir the grinds with a needle to break up clumps, and level off the top, tamp lightly but evenly around the whole thing until it looks nice, flat and even. Let out some false steam through the wand, and pull a shot of water through the machine to heat things up, then put the basket into the portafilter. I lift up and wait ~5 seconds then pull down until a drop or 2 comes out, pull the lever back up all the way and wait for ~10 seconds, then pull down the lever all the way with firm but even pressure. My last shot dripped only out of the right spout of the portafilter and took about 20 seconds to pull. The puck looked ok except for a space on one side of it where water looks like it got between the puck and the metal and allowed it to flow unevenly.

Help me, these shots are terrible even drowned with milk.

Your process sounds fine, you are getting about right time wise on the pull (internet wisdom say shoot for 30 sec, but less on a lever - I aim for about 24-26) - the thing to watch for would be channeling which you definitely had on the puck you described, and may have had on other attempts. If you are using the WDT to break up the clumps, its hard to think of another way that may help. Are you using a full-width tamper, or something off your grinder? Since you said you tamp around the whole thing until it is nice and flat, it sounds like its maybe not the width of the basket? If that is the case you have two options (I didn't have a tamper for about a month with my first machine and almost every shot had channeling no matter how careful I was with the non full width tamper) - full width tamper (I had a machinist buddy carve one out of some scrap stainless bar stock he had) or the 'italian method.' Italian method is grinding much finer and then leveling off the grounds but never taking a tamper to it. The dispersion screen will push down on the grounds a little bit, and then the force of the water will hit the grounds and form a puck with no tamping on your end. I did this for a bit while waiting on the machinist to cut out the small piston for my lever tamper - it actually works remarkably well.

Also - what kind of grinder are you using?

[pechelman]

and last but not least

the puck means bullshit
if it comes out dry and solid, thats easy cleanup, if its soupy, its a little messy, but beyond that, the proof is in the cup.

Puck consistency can be used however to give you a general guideline on your dose.
Wet and soupy = maybe underdosed
Dry and Hard = maybe proper dose maybe over dosed

the single puck on mine never comes out 100% clean but it is very dry.

I also tried the WDT crap, stir with a needle, etc.. Its hard to do any of that BS consistently and just adds complexity where its not needed.
Im sure there are benefits with these techniques if done consistently and repeatably, but in my experience they offer diminishing returns at the expense of much more risk.
My philosophy, and not just with coffee; Less is more. Keep it simple. Dont stress over the details.

I dump in my fluffy grind from my hand grinder using a metal funnel (removes static). I do a couple of knocks on my knockblock to settle the grounds from the funnel into the basket. I remove the funnel, knock the PF a couple more times to settle it a bit more from the funnel mountain.
Then I do a light leveling tamp.
Tap the sides gently to move loose grounds on the perimiter to the center.
Then lightly and quickly tamp a couple more times so that when I raise, any more loose grind is picked up by the vaccuum created by the tamper and it moves into the center. I dont bother twisting to polish. Seems to disturb the puck more if i do it.

My tamper is slightly Convex. I machined the stock plastic one down to fit perfect and it works amazingly.

doing everything ive said, ive only had 1 sink shot in the past 4-5 months, and thats because I was trying to snake a shot out of the 5.7grams of coffee I had left one morning.