espresso making mags?

[MakeFast]

the puck means bullshit
if it comes out dry and solid, thats easy cleanup, if its soupy, its a little messy, but beyond that, the proof is in the cup.

I will somewhat agree with that - my pucks are always a little soupy. Can't remember the last "dry puck" I had...it would be back on one of my pump-driven machines.

BUT, if you have holes in the puck - that does tell you a lot about what went wrong. If you have holes there was a nice big channel for all the water to rush through which is why you ended up with a funky shot.

Beyond that - You and Pechelman both do way more than I do when I dose. Grind => PF => Stockfleths => VERY light tamp => Pull shot. Like him, very few sink shots and its usually when I am trying to do something or have a new coffee and am messing with the grind (but I can usually drink those if I really want to).

edit: Are you sure the shot is ending up sour? That is usually from underextraction, is your crema yellow/blonde on these shots? If the flavor is bitter or just kinda funky your machine may just not be clean. Run some hot water through it and then taste the water - does it taste normal?

[pechelman]

one last thing

since its a new machine

have you done what the manual said about a diluted vinegar mix to get the "factory taste" out of the machine?

[couloirman]

wow thanks for all the responses guys. Ill try and answer all the Q's.

I use an ascaso Imini grinder, its stepless and decent but clumps a little and leaves a lot of leftover grounds to be pounded out of the machine with a few good whacks.

The machine is a brand new Gaggia factory and I did the baking soda in the boiler and flush multiple times trick to clean it out.

Right when the machine comes up to pressure Ive been making my shots. This must be a problem as it sounds like that's rushing things so Ill let it heat up a lot more tomorrow and see how it does. Pressure seems to go from about .65 to .9 give or take a little over the course of pulling water through the machine.

Without grinds in the filter the water comes evenly out both spouts so its definitely finding the channel on the outside of the puck causing the uneven extraction.

The beans Im using are a slightly lighter roast ethiopian ademe bedain full flavor at the top of that page, not the espresso roast at the bottom of the page(maybe this is part of the problem?). It was the freshest coffee they had at whole foods so it was what I got. Ive got 5lbs of Black Cat on the way to me so hopefully Ill be able to pull something decent out of that.

I use the small end of the stock tamper which is about 1/4 the size of the basket cause the big end wont fit in, what is the correct size tamper to buy for the factory if I were to get a nicer metal one?

Im not 100% sure the taste im getting is 'sour', Im just starting out on my espresso journey so Ive got a long ways to go picking out different flavors, but Im damn sure its crap by anyone's standards.

Im getting a decent amount of crema on the shot but would like more of course.


I think tomorrow Ill definitely let it warm up more, but what pressure should I ideally be seeing right before I decide to pull the shot? Mine is usually hovering around .75 ish, near the low end of where it varies between but I was under the apparently faulty impression that that was a good thing, Ill definitely try pulling at the highest possible pressure tomorrow. Do you guys let the steam out of the knob before each pull or just the first one? When I let the steam out the pressure drops a bunch and I thought I was supposed to pull as it was regaining its pressure.

Oh and pech, does the boiler cap on your factory rust like mine does? what do you do about it? Whats the best product to remove rust from any part of an espresso machine?


You guys kick ass BTW.

[pechelman]

ok
if you pull a shot immediately after it cycles off, it will taste horrible
You're water is probably around 240 in the boiler, but by the time it makes it through the machine, and looses heat to the group head, its probably down to 170-180. Waaaaaay too cold. This is definitely your problem.

Your pressure is good, dont bother changing it unless you want more steaming power. Pressure is honestly irrelevant to temeprature and is only there to let you know you have the minimum of ~.5bar to force the water into the cylinder and at least ~.75bar to steam milk. In other words, ignore pressure gauge, its got little to nothing to do with temperature coming out the group.

So you ask, what does affect temperature on this machine?
The temperature of the group head!
Again, you've got stupid hot water, flowing through a heavy mass, thats much colder, so it looses heat. In essence, you have a heat exchanger of sorts.
If the group heads gets too hot, where its really scalding, put a cold cloth on it.
It should be very very hot though. If you can touch it for more than a couple seconds, its too cold, and less than just a tap, too hot.
This sounds finicky and a pain, but its never really been an issue for me. So far its pretty forgiving and consistent.

You can also get a stick on thermometer like what the guy at orphanespresso sells.

as far as the roast on that ethiopian you have, honestly, i have no idea
maybe you can take a picture of the beans and I can tell you?
perhaps you can ask the roaster where he went to?
did it hit 2nd crack, does he have a temp reading, anything?

other than that, I think you're good.

as far as bleeding false pressure, Ive been doing it, but i never have had any. I still do it though because it heats up my glass nicely. (ie I bleed pressure into the cup i will be drinking from...i also flush my grouphead water into it as well...)

Always clear the steam wand before steaming milk to get the moisture out of the wand to keep your milk as dry as possible. Bleeding pressure\checking for a dry wand is really only necessary before the first pull and before every time you go steam.

I will also say that before you start steaming, you want to make sure that the heating element has cycled on so you get a continuous source of heat IN while you are letting it OUT. By the way, change the 3hole steam tip to a 1 hole by getting an M5? acorn nut from home depot and drilling a 1/16"? hole in the tip. Mine works excellently. Dbl Check the dimensions on those coffee message boards.

my boiler cap had some weird tarnish on it.
i pretty much ignored it after i tried to brush it off.
now it seems to be gone with repeated use.
If you're bugged by it, Id say to wire brush the threads and apply some DOW111 lubricant to it to stop the galvanic corrosion thats most likely going on between the Stainless Boiler threads and the Brass threads on the cap.

glad to help you, because i know how frustrating it can be to get a clear answer from those other message boards. Too much kool-aid.

[MakeFast]

I bleed false pressure as well, but mind does build up (~1975 Cremina) - I do like Pech though, and heat up the glass.

I like fairly light roasts - right a little after the first crack sometimes (though rarely - usually city - full city). Check here: http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasted.pict-guide.php which does it look like? Saying "Espresso Roast" is kinda meaningless - so it depends.

You may want to upgrade your tamper, but that is up to you - it will likely improve consistency. Not sure what the factory basket size is off hand - 51mm maybe? Pech may know.

And listen to what Pech said about temp - that sounds like your problem.

e: and black cat is some of my favorite espresso.

[pechelman]

OH

about the tamper C-man

Take the big end and a panzer ski edge file (or other aggressive steel file)
Go around it methodically and firmly to file the big end down to 51mm.
Have a basket on hand to check it and make sure you're doing it round.
Thats what I did and its an amazing tamper.
Took me about 10 minutes, but i was anal about getting it perfect, including matching the taper angle of the baskets.

I also lightly polished off the molding seam that runs straight across the face of the tamper.

Using the small end will produce shitty results for sure.

[Capatain]

Any body have/use/have an opinion on, the Starbucks Sirena machine?? I'm looking to get into espresso cheap and easy, but not crappy...
http://www.starbucks.com/flash/sirena/default.htm

Thanks for any feedback.

[StormDay]

The beans Im using are a slightly lighter roast ethiopian ademe bedain full flavor at the top of that page, not the espresso roast at the bottom of the page(maybe this is part of the problem?). It was the freshest coffee they had at whole foods so it was what I got. Ive got 5lbs of Black Cat on the way to me so hopefully Ill be able to pull something decent out of that.

Yup. you are not going to get good espresso with a non-espresso roast. Plan on trying a few different roasts/companies before finding one that works well with your machine.

Also, playing with the grind and tap pressure will effect that shot quality.

Currently, I using BlueBottle's Retrofit espresso roast. It seems pretty tolerant with the group head temp not being perfect.


http://www.bluebottlecoffee.net/Cate...ategory=Coffee
(at bottom of page)

Also, 5 lbs is allot of coffee. Be careful about the beans going stale on you.

[MakeFast]

Yup. you are not going to get good espresso with a non-espresso roast.

This is all kinds of wrong. There is no such thing as "espresso roast" (sorry Starbucks). Usually when people put espresso roast on coffee that means "Burnt so that there are no flavors of anything left beyond the flavor of char."

There are espresso blends, but not espresso roasts - I have had wonderful espresso from lightly roasted beans and from well past Full City. Coffee roasts should be tailored to each individual coffee, not roasted to a certain level because that is the "espresso roast" level.

Any body have/use/have an opinion on, the Starbucks Sirena machine?? I'm looking to get into espresso cheap and easy, but not crappy...
http://www.starbucks.com/flash/sirena/default.htm

I have no hands on experience with it, but for the same price you can get a lightly used Gaggia that is built like a truck and will last forever while still producing a decent (sometimes great) shot. Gaggia makes the best intro machines, IMO.

[StormDay]

This is all kinds of wrong. There is no such thing as "espresso roast" (sorry Starbucks). Usually when people put espresso roast on coffee that means "Burnt so that there are no flavors of anything left beyond the flavor of char."

There are espresso blends, but not espresso roasts - I have had wonderful espresso from lightly roasted beans and from well past Full City. Coffee roasts should be tailored to each individual coffee, not roasted to a certain level because that is the "espresso roast" level.

ok, blend is a better term than roast and what your are saying about Starbuck is definitely true. (It also applies to Peets)

My personal experience is that coffee being sold for making espresso make better espresso than coffee designed for french press or a drip machine.

[pechelman]

This is all kinds of wrong. There is no such thing as "espresso roast" (sorry Starbucks). Usually when people put espresso roast on coffee that means "Burnt so that there are no flavors of anything left beyond the flavor of char."

There are espresso blends, but not espresso roasts - I have had wonderful espresso from lightly roasted beans and from well past Full City. Coffee roasts should be tailored to each individual coffee, not roasted to a certain level because that is the "espresso roast" level.
.

100% agree
I recently roasted a City+ batch of high altitude central americans (maybe even some kenyans in there?) that Im really digging as espresso. Its bright, but its been temepered with a lower altitude central american that roasted up a bit faster to give it body and depth.

99% of people out there would never consider a City roast in an espresso machine.

ok, blend is a better term than roast and what your are saying about Starbuck is definitely true. (It also applies to Peets)

My personal experience is that coffee being sold for making espresso make better espresso than coffee designed for french press or a drip machine.

Your personal experience, I am afraid to say, has been tainted by the popular ignorance of today's coffee culture.

[Core Shot]

well, I finally got the fully automatic espresso maker I have lusted after.

http://www.wholelattelove.com/Saeco/odea_go.cfm




No particular reason for getting this model, other than I had a shitload of credit card points that were expiring and this was the one they had available.

Totally stoked on my own espresso with NONE of the hassle of tamping, rinsing, and grinding.
I only hope it lasts long enough before it inevitably breaks down as they all do.

Mmmmm

Self Quote to say I love my superauotmatic.

Espresso has never been easier (and better).

I don't have half the time you other purists have.
Pushbutton convenience is the best.

[2-czech]

you guys are very right that "coffee roasted for espresso" is bullshit .. on the other hand, i would not really use a nice yirga (which i almost never bring even close to second crack) into my home gaggia machine. there is just not enough temperature stability to get that awesome shot with high acidity and lot of fruits without ending up with negative sour taste ... unless you have LM GS3 at home, I would stay with the "traditional" blends like Intellis Black Cat, or 49th Epic, Hairbender etc. They just work so much better on these machines for straight espressos ... (also usually lighter the roast, less amount of crema)

Pechelman: "Pressure is honestly irrelevant to temperature" ... i know you are talking home machines but on the standard HX commercial machine this is not correct. The only way to alter the temperature on the grouphead is to increase/decrease pressure/temperature on the boiler ... 1.2-1.5 bars on the boiler is roughly 120C and approx 93-94C on the grouphead (the usual factory setting) ... obviously its not the best thing to do because it affects the steam etc... thats why i sell only Dalla Corte which have small boilers on each group head and you can play with the temp up to .1 degree

[PNWbrit]

We just replaced a broken Starbucks machine like this:



With a Gaggia Pure and I've got to say I'm not impressed with it at all... steam wand seams weak and mostly cold no creama shots. At the moment I'm thinking I'm glad I kept he box.

Shouldn't I be delighted with this machine? Sure seems expensive for how flimsy and light it feels.

[Cruiser]

Self Quote to say I love my superauotmatic.

Espresso has never been easier (and better).

I don't have half the time you other purists have.
Pushbutton convenience is the best.

Been rocking our Saeco super auto for a couple of years now with 0 problems. I wake up, turn it on, push the button, and drink quality espresso a couple of moments later. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

That said, I've been roasting at home for a month or so now and it has made a world of difference in the quality of the shots I'm getting. My typical roast (FC+ to light Vienna) is infinitely more complex than the conventional store bought "espresso" roast. Thank goodness Mrs. Cruiser loves me enough to ask Pechelman for B-Day present advice.

[Core Shot]

Been rocking our Saeco super auto for a couple of years now with 0 problems. I wake up, turn it on, push the button, and drink quality espresso a couple of moments later. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

That said, I've been roasting at home for a month or so now and it has made a world of difference in the quality of the shots I'm getting. My typical roast (FC+ to light Vienna) is infinitely more complex than the conventional store bought "espresso" roast. Thank goodness Mrs. Cruiser loves me enough to ask Pechelman for B-Day present advice.

Word on that.
I cant roast my own, but am digging a sweet Vienna roast from a regional bean house. Before that I had supermarket beans, and then local shitty roaster beans, and they sucked ass in comparison.

Mmmmm sweet beans.

[couloirman]

getting MUCH better results with the black cat blend, at least good enough to drink finally. Gotta tinker with my grind some more and wait for my convex tamper to come, but Im happy to no longer be pouring every shot down the drain


Lets say I wake up in the morning and have a full day to study at home. How long is too long to leave my machine on for? I doubt these home models were meant to be on all the time, but Im assuming I should turn off between my breakfast and lunch shots?

[couloirman]

LASTLY
If its still to sour, dont be afraid to Start Dump your brew.
The sour\acidic\bright chemicals and compounds in coffee all come in the beginning part of the extraction.

This was the magic fix. On my first stroke when I pull down just until a few drops come out to coat the bottom of the glass and re-raise the lever, I then switch out shot glasses and throw away that first little bit, then pull again until the crema lightens and begins to blonde(at least what I think is blonding, not 100% sure I understand it but I just go until I begin to see a lighter blotch of crema starting to form and then stop pulling). Amazing how much better the shots taste, I tasted the first couple drops instead of throwing it away just now and those are exactly the flavors I was trying to get rid of.

the Black Cat kicks ass too BTW, cant wait to try the other bag of single origin espresso I got from them. How much variation in grind setting can you see between different espresso blends? Doesn't this really mess with you as a home espresso roaster since every roast is a little different?

EDIT: I just tried steaming milk for the first time on it today, damn that shit it tough! Put the milk in a metal pitcher in the freezer while I poured my shots, then gave it a go. Nothing but big uneven bubbles, not even a little bit of what you'd call microfoam. Oh well, I guess I just gotta stay caffeinated and keep on trying!

[Yonder_River]

Got rid of the delonghi.

Just got an Ascaso I-mini and have a Gaggia Classic on the way. Stoked.

[couloirman]

still not so stoked yet on my lever. It takes an exorbitant amount of force for me to get water to start flowing. Does that mean I should loosen the grind? I tightened it up cause i thought the sour meant I was underexctracting but I put maximum force onto the lever for 15ish seconds before the first few drops come out. Is that normal? Today I made a shot and it smelled like chemicals, I thought I was burning a gasket or something.

Also, my P stat has lowered itself and now runs at .6-.7. Is that too low?

[pechelman]

Pechelman: "Pressure is honestly irrelevant to temperature" ... i know you are talking home machines but on the standard HX commercial machine this is not correct. The only way to alter the temperature on the grouphead is to increase/decrease pressure/temperature on the boiler ... 1.2-1.5 bars on the boiler is roughly 120C and approx 93-94C on the grouphead (the usual factory setting) ... obviously its not the best thing to do because it affects the steam etc... thats why i sell only Dalla Corte which have small boilers on each group head and you can play with the temp up to .1 degree

i know what you're saying, and I know the relationship between Pressure and Temperature, but im sorry, you're still not really correct.
Even with an HX machine, you can continuously flush the machine to get whatever temp you want, and as such, Pressure does not SOLELY determine temp at the group head.

Lets say I wake up in the morning and have a full day to study at home. How long is too long to leave my machine on for? I doubt these home models were meant to be on all the time, but Im assuming I should turn off between my breakfast and lunch shots?

honestly, if you're not going to use it, turn it off
If you leave it on for more than 30 minutes, especially after using it, it will be unusable until you cool off the group head. Also, if you leave it on for a while, and are low on water in the boiler, you risk boiling off water and running it with a dry element, or needing to bleed all pressure to refill it.

This was the magic fix. and those are exactly the flavors I was trying to get rid of.

its a cool trick
same goes for the end dump or to just stop pulling when it blondes as you find out. Center Cutting, as its called, yeilds such a rich sweet shot its almost like espresso candy. I like the balance the start and end give though, so i never both with center cutting.

the Black Cat kicks ass too BTW, cant wait to try the other bag of single origin espresso I got from them. How much variation in grind setting can you see between different espresso blends? Doesn't this really mess with you as a home espresso roaster since every roast is a little different?

with this machine, ive found its pretty insensitive to grind. most anything within a quarter turn on my Zass grinder will pull something good. Greatness is a much smaller range tho from bean to bean and roast to roast and day to day.
I havent found this to be a big deal with home roasting as the window of adjustment to truly "dial" it in, is very small

Remember why I told you to get a stepless grinder?
Thats why.

EDIT: I just tried steaming milk for the first time on it today, damn that shit it tough! Put the milk in a metal pitcher in the freezer while I poured my shots, then gave it a go. Nothing but big uneven bubbles, not even a little bit of what you'd call microfoam. Oh well, I guess I just gotta stay caffeinated and keep on trying!

steaming milk is another adventure it itself

First, you're getting big bubbles because you broke the surface of the milk with the tip of your wand. Be sure not to turn steam on until you have submerged the tip. THEN slowly lower the pitcher to surf the tip.
Rule No 1 for steaming milk; NEVER break the surface of the milk with the tip....ie leave the tip in

Id reccomend ditching the 3 hole tip and making your own single hole using an M5x1 acorn nut and a 1/32"? drill bit. (search for it on homebarista forums)

The technique is to surf the tip of the wand on the surface of the milk so you hear a "tearing" sound. Sorta like a continuous tearing of news papers. This is called "Stretching" or what people refer to as "Frothing" or "Foaming" the milk. The idea here is to introduce a little air into the milk, but very evenly and consistently so the air bubbles are tiny...micro sized

Be sure to do so with your pitcher vertical and the steam wand tangent to the edge so you create a whirlpool \ vortex. This helps collapse bigger bubbles.

Stretch the milk until you get to about 60-80F depending on what texture you're going for. I stop around 65 I think so I can pour latte art.

When you stretch, you will slowly need to lower the pitcher as the milk level will rise....remember you're trying to keep the top on the surface.

Once you want to stop stretching, you want to Steam or Heat the milk to raise the temperature to around 140-145. Around this temp itll become nicely sweet and hot. Again, keep the whirlpool going.
To steam, simply stop lowering the pitcher or slightly bury the tip.

No need to bury it all the way, just below the surface. Makes wand cleanup easier if you dont bury it.

Really thats it.
Lots of words, but fairly simple.
Too bad you're not local anymore or I could just show you.

still not so stoked yet on my lever. It takes an exorbitant amount of force for me to get water to start flowing. Does that mean I should loosen the grind? I tightened it up cause i thought the sour meant I was underexctracting but I put maximum force onto the lever for 15ish seconds before the first few drops come out. Is that normal? Today I made a shot and it smelled like chemicals, I thought I was burning a gasket or something.

Also, my P stat has lowered itself and now runs at .6-.7. Is that too low?

Too much force is something from here or a combo;
Water too cold
Grind too tight
Tamp too hard

Most likely its your grind being too tight. Loosen up your grind to fix it.
Honestly, people pull too hard on levers. Its really not needed if you do the math to get 9bar. I forget the geometry, but iw ant to say the ratio is like 10:1, so if you pull with 50lbs, you get about 500 straight down on a piston that I think is about 3sqin, thats about 12bar.

For the first drops, I never time it, but here's my general timeline;
Raise lever and wait for chamber to fill: 5-10s
Slowly pull lever until I see first drops: 5-10s
Slowly Raise lever to refill chamber: 2-3s
Pull lever to complete shot: 20-30s? (really no idea)
Total time water is in contact with coffee: 30-50s?

So by that standards, my water is probably in contact way too long, but forget about time, its liberating, I promise. The proof is in the cup.

Tightening the grind will help if you are having trouble with underextraction, but it can also hurt when it comes time to overextracting aka early blonding. Its the happy middleground of grind, tamp, water temp, lever force, that makes this a bit tricky.

Not sure ive ever smelled burning chemicals before
just when it was new and it first was heating.
easy enough to see your gaskets are ok...ie no leaks
My only idea is to check at your filler cap gasket.

.7bar is fine, so is .6.
It is however on the low end of what Id want for steaming milk.
All you "need" is about .5bar to fill the chamber.

You can steam milk around .5bar too, but it might not be exactly what you want in terms of texture. Might have to stop stretching around 55F.
Stretching ive found is moreso about Time duration rather than Temp.
So if you have less powerful steam, itll take longer to reach your desired temp.

sorry im slow in responding

[pechelman]

We just replaced a broken Starbucks machine like this:



With a Gaggia Pure and I've got to say I'm not impressed with it at all... steam wand seams weak and mostly cold no creama shots. At the moment I'm thinking I'm glad I kept he box.

Shouldn't I be delighted with this machine? Sure seems expensive for how flimsy and light it feels.

Its not a bad machine, its just finicky.
Make sure you let it warm up for at least 10-15 minutes with the portafilter in the grouphead. Your PF should be HOT.
If its not, keep flushing water in 10-15 second intervals until it is.

HOT.

Also, you must time your shots appropriately.
On my machine, I found my water was consistently 199-200F when and ONLY when the heating element shut off.
What does this mean to extracting your coffee?

It means you should only begin extract IMMEDIATELY after or IMMEDIATELY before the heating cycles shuts off. Like right away.
Ideally youd time it to 1-3seconds before, so the heater would continue to run throughout the beginning of the shot and maybe even into the center of it.

Simiarly, for the steam, you want to make sure the heater element is CONTINUOUSLY running while you have the steam knob valve open.
Otherwise it wont be strong.

Furthermore, take the plastic over cover thing off the other plastic part thats screwed onto the metal wand.
You will see one red o-ring

Move this o-ring UP one notch so it creates a seal between itself and the outer plastic sheath thing.

youll get infinitely better performance this way, but you will now no longer have a "Panarello" air injecting wand and will need to use proper technique (as i just typed out) in order to steam milk.

Good news though, is that I have done it with that machine, and that wand setup, and it works great. I can pour art with it as good as my skills allow.



oh, and with my machine, i could never really get a solid Normale out of it. I was always more on the ristretto side of things, which it did fantastically. Basically a very tight grind, light tamp, and a 25-35s pump. I also hardly ever used the double basket either.
99% singles which are generally way more finicky.

Also, bear in mind, with these machines, it takes about 5s to "prime" the space between the pump and the group head after a complete cycle. So those first 5s mean nothing usually. Listen to the machine and you can hear when it bears down and sees pump load.

the case is flimsy, but that means jack shit honestly
you're paying for a few things
-Removable water res
-Full size commercial 58mm grouphead
-Dual T-Stat Stainless steel boiler
-good vibe pump

really, just the things that matter
it takes a good 'nother 300$ to get something thats a "real" step up imo. at 200$, that line of machines is a great entry level bargain imo.

[PNWbrit]

^^ Thanks

[pechelman]

dont thank me till it actually works for you

[haydukelives]

i searched this great thead and couldnt find anything about cleaning/decalcifying the machine.
i have used mine for 1 1/2 years at 3 doubles/day with no problems and no cleaning the guts. i do use filtered water.

should i clean it? with what?

i read that the decalcifier is basically weak hcl.(in a very expensively marketed form )will any weak acid do it? vinegar?

or vitamin c crystals?.....i already have those,and i can drink the outflow.