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Thread: Woman gets the fastest time in a Marathon but does not place. WTF?

  1. #1
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    Woman gets the fastest time in a Marathon but does not place. WTF?

    I say fuck Nike, their running shoes suck anyway. And now everyone should run as an elite runner just in case they win.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgate.com
    There were over 20,000 competitors in Sunday's Nike Women's Marathon in San Francisco. And 24-year-old Arien O'Connell, a fifth-grade teacher from New York City, ran the fastest time of any of the women.

    But she didn't win.

    It doesn't get much simpler than a footrace. All it takes is a starting line, a finish line and a clock. You fire the gun and the first person to the end of the course is the winner.

    However, as the marathon officials said to O'Connell - not so fast.

    While O'Connell had the greatest run of her life and covered the course faster than any woman, she was told she couldn't be declared the winner because she didn't run with the "elite" group who were given a 20-minute head start.

    So what could have been a lovely Cinderella story about a young woman rising above her expectations in a race that bills itself as all about empowering women turned into a strict the-rules-are-the-rules edict. That's not the image we're trying to promote here.

    San Francisco has become one of those destination locations for the new breed of distance runner. Between the San Francisco Marathon in July and the Nike race - billed as the largest women's marathon in the world - over 40,000 runners will visit this year.

    It is great that these events are held here, but they are also representing the city. What we are hoping is that they leave town talking about the terrific location, the great restaurants and the perfectly organized event. Instead, we look like we don't know how to operate a stopwatch.

    "That's pretty weak," said Jon Hendershott, associate editor of the authoritative Track and Field News magazine, based in Mountain View. "Think of the PR they could have had with this girl coming out of nowhere. It sounds like they got caught totally off guard."

    O'Connell, who describes herself as "a pretty good runner," had never managed to break three hours in five previous marathons. But as soon as she started at 7 a.m. Sunday, she knew it was her day. In fact, when she crossed the finish line 26.2 miles later, her time of 2:55:11 was so unexpectedly fast that she burst into tears.

    "I ran my best time by like 12 minutes, which is insane," she said.

    At the awards ceremony, the O'Connell clan looked on as the top times were announced and the "elite" female runners stepped forward to accept their trophies.

    "They called out the third-place time and I thought, 'I was faster than that,' " she said. "Then they called out the second-place time and I was faster than that. And then they called out the first-place time (3:06), and I said, 'Heck, I'm faster than her first-place time, too.' "

    Just to make sure, O'Connell strolled over to a results station and asked a race official to call up her time on the computer. There it was, some 11 minutes faster than the official winner.

    "They were just flabbergasted," O'Connell said. "I don't think it ever crossed their minds."

    No one seemed exactly sure what to do. The trophies had already been handed out and the official results announced. Now organizers seem to be hoping it will all go away.

    "At this point," Nike media relations manager Tanya Lopez said Monday, "we've declared our winner."

    O'Connell said some race officials actually implied she'd messed up the seeding by not declaring herself an "elite" runner.

    "If you're feeling like you're going to be a leader," race producer Dan Hirsch said Monday, "you should be in the elite pack."

    So this is her fault? O'Connell was just being modest.

    "I'm a good, solid runner," she said. "I never considered myself elite."

    Jim Estes, associate director of the long-distance running program for USA Track and Field, did his best to explain the ruling. He's had some practice with the issue. The Sunday before last, at the Chicago Marathon, a Kenyan named Wesley Korir pulled off a similar surprise, finishing fourth even though he wasn't in the elite group and started five minutes after the top runners.

    In that situation, and in this one, Estes made the same ruling: It didn't count. O'Connell wasn't declared the winner and Korir didn't collect fourth-place prize money.

    "The theory is that, because they had separate starts, they weren't in the same race," Estes said. "The woman who is winning the elite field doesn't have the opportunity to know she was racing someone else."

    Estes admits that giving the elite runners a sizable head start may not be the best policy.

    "These are things this race and other races need to look at," Estes said. "It comes down to what a race is, and who is racing who."

    Nonsense, said Track and Field News' Hendershott. He said O'Connell took her best shot, ran the fastest and should have won.

    "What's she supposed to do, lay back because she's not an elite runner?" he asked. "If the elites are going to lay back, that's their fault."

    As for O'Connell, she's not bitter. After all, she got her best time ever, had a nice weekend in San Francisco and comes home with a story.

    But she didn't win. Maybe the best way to explain that is to say it is just another case of the elites in San Francisco giving the city a bad name.

    C.W. Nevius' column runs Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. E-mail him at cwnevius@sfchronicle.com.
    People should learn endurance; they should learn to endure the discomforts of heat and cold, hunger and thirst; they should learn to be patient when receiving abuse and scorn; for it is the practice of endurance that quenches the fire of worldly passions which is burning up their bodies.
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  2. #2
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    Yeah, that is unfortunate. They should do one of two things: Either there should be a clear notification for ordinary runners at registration stating, "You are not eligible for prize payouts regardless of you time." Or else they should start the elites with the first wave of runners. If they are "elite" they'll find the front soon enough.

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    ELITISM!
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    Nike needs to define "elite". Although a 3hr marathon is a great accomplishment, that by no means is an elite finish time. Something sub 2:50 would be a good starting point for a womens race. Arien properly seeded herself if she thought elite was comparable to olympic results. I wonder if there was prize money involved? I'd be getting a lawyer.

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    That sounds like every bike race I've ever done. You're not eligible for cash payouts unless you're racing pro. If you race beginner and get the fastest time on the course, you still just get the beginner prizes (usually some XXXL gloves, or something like that).

    If she was entering the race for the prizes, she should have registered for the class that had prizes. If she was in the race just to see how well she could do, then the prizes are irrelevant, and she can go home happy knowing that she ran faster than a lot of other people. Part of racing is knowing who you are competing against.

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    I disagree. She should not be declared the winner of a race she was not in.

    I have been a professional athlete in a 'racing' sport other than running. Occasionally our events were held in conjunction with others, like age groups or other categories classified by ability. It was very common that the pros where the fastest, but not always. The point is that it is a race and the winner is determined by more than just the finishing time.

    In my pro races I didn't care what my finishing time was, just as long as it was faster than second place.

    For the current case, how can you tell the declared winner that she was beaten by someone she was not racing against? That is ridiculous. This was not a 'time trial' where everyone runs individually and the placings are simply determined by the best times. It was a race and the first one over the line, regardless of their time, wins. It is this womans fault for not entering the correct race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    That sounds like every bike race I've ever done. You're not eligible for cash payouts unless you're racing pro. If you race beginner and get the fastest time on the course, you still just get the beginner prizes (usually some XXXL gloves, or something like that).

    If she was entering the race for the prizes, she should have registered for the class that had prizes. If she was in the race just to see how well she could do, then the prizes are irrelevant, and she can go home happy knowing that she ran faster than a lot of other people. Part of racing is knowing who you are competing against.
    Thats fine but they should recognize her at the awards ceremony as the fastest runner.
    People should learn endurance; they should learn to endure the discomforts of heat and cold, hunger and thirst; they should learn to be patient when receiving abuse and scorn; for it is the practice of endurance that quenches the fire of worldly passions which is burning up their bodies.
    --Buddha

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerman View Post
    Thats fine but they should recognize her at the awards ceremony as the fastest runner.
    Yes, it would have been nice to at least recognize her time at the awards ceremony.

    I'll bet if you look at the entry form for the marathon it explicitly states that you must enter the elite or pro division to be eligible for the awards. You can't blame the race organizers for following their own rules.

  9. #9
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    I guess the races I enter do not have pro or elite divisions on the entry forms. Maybe I should look at it better and always enter as an elite. There is no criteria for being elite? (Besides bathing or balls in champagne nightly)
    People should learn endurance; they should learn to endure the discomforts of heat and cold, hunger and thirst; they should learn to be patient when receiving abuse and scorn; for it is the practice of endurance that quenches the fire of worldly passions which is burning up their bodies.
    --Buddha

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    Quote Originally Posted by PuderLuder View Post
    I disagree. She should not be declared the winner of a race she was not in.

    I have been a professional athlete in a 'racing' sport other than running. Occasionally our events were held in conjunction with others, like age groups or other categories classified by ability. It was very common that the pros where the fastest, but not always. The point is that it is a race and the winner is determined by more than just the finishing time.

    In my pro races I didn't care what my finishing time was, just as long as it was faster than second place.

    For the current case, how can you tell the declared winner that she was beaten by someone she was not racing against? That is ridiculous. This was not a 'time trial' where everyone runs individually and the placings are simply determined by the best times. It was a race and the first one over the line, regardless of their time, wins. It is this womans fault for not entering the correct race.
    Agreed. Yeah, it sucks for her, but that's how it works. You can't change classes after the race is done. If standing on the podium and winning prizes is important to you - you'd better read the race rules before you register.
    "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow, what a Ride!"

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    I agree with NIKE. She didn't race against the elites. She raced the clock. They raced each other. They didn't care how fast they went so long as they beat second place. She cared only about how fast she went. The elite pack had no idea where she was and what her time was. Had they know her time or been able to see her I doubt they would have just let her win by five minutes. Additionally she got the benefit of running in a large pack where she could draft and run her race. If she had been racing the pro's she would have been drafted off of, pushed by a rabbit, forced to watch out for charges by other pros and whatnot.
    She had the best time for the pack- and for that NIKE should give her something but not the trophy or the prize for winning the pro race- she didn't win that.

  12. #12
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    Interestingly the FAQ for the event doesn't make it clear that only the Elite division is eligible for the awards:

    AWARDS

    WHAT PRIZES WILL BE AWARDED, AND IN WHAT CATEGORIES?
    Commemorative memorabilia designed by Tiffany & Co. will be given to the top (3) overall women and men in the Marathon and Half Marathon. Age group awards will be provided and will be given to the top 3 females and top 3 males in each age division. Age group awards will be mailed after the event.
    I'm still guessing this was specifically stated in the rules somewhere. If not she certainly has a gripe.

    To answer your question about who can race in the elite division, the FAQ says you have to submit a running resume.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionelhutz View Post
    I agree with NIKE. She didn't race against the elites. She raced the clock. They raced each other. They didn't care how fast they went so long as they beat second place. She cared only about how fast she went. The elite pack had no idea where she was and what her time was. Had they know her time or been able to see her I doubt they would have just let her win by five minutes. Additionally she got the benefit of running in a large pack where she could draft and run her race. If she had been racing the pro's she would have been drafted off of, pushed by a rabbit, forced to watch out for charges by other pros and whatnot.
    She had the best time for the pack- and for that NIKE should give her something but not the trophy or the prize for winning the pro race- she didn't win that.
    That's true too. I was thinking more along the lines of time trial starts - 2 years ago at one of the national Super D races (which was a time trial race), I raced expert and my time would have put me on the podium as a pro. You don't get anything for that other than the knowledge that you did a good job - and a kick in the butt to upgrade your racing class.

    But it's even worse in this case because there are certainly tactics involved in running marathons. If you were with a different group of people - it's not the same thing.

    Anyway - unfortunately all you get when that happens is a "nice work - time to upgrade!"
    "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow, what a Ride!"

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    First off lets be serious. The "elite" times sucked, they were no where close to being elite. This is just another case of Nike running an event for their own promotion, has nothing to do with the athletes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude2468 View Post
    First off lets be serious. The "elite" times sucked, they were no where close to being elite. This is just another case of Nike running an event for their own promotion, has nothing to do with the athletes.
    What would give you that idea? Were you at the race? Did you see the course? Is it a flat course? Do you know anything about racing? Last I checked San Francisco is not considered flat and wouldn't be conducive to fast times, but I wouldn't know or comment on it because I wasn't there.
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    "The theory is that, because they had separate starts, they weren't in the same race," Estes said. "The woman who is winning the elite field doesn't have the opportunity to know she was racing someone else."
    i would usually agree with this, however she won by 11 minutes, not 20-30 seconds...that being said

    i agree that she shouldn't have won prizes but should have gotten recognition from nike
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    I ran in a bunch of races when I was younger and I have some friends that run in competitive races now. Its sort of common knowledge that this is how things work. Just like high schools are broken into divisions and districts. We would race our League champioships with 2 divisions in the same start. I came in third in the race as a whole, but I got first in my division, as the other schools had a larger population base. We were all the same age and from the same area, but that was how things worked. Think further about the age bracket breakdowns that are present as well. If a 40 year old beats a 22 year old, that 22 year old still wins thier age bracket.

    I also gotta point out that when reading the article you can see that the woman was suprised and not terribly upset, it seems that the hype is coming from the writer's standpoint as well as those interviewed besides the racer. Sounds like she is a good sport about it and not really taking it too personally, just bummed.
    More fucked up than a cricket in a hubcap

  18. #18
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    There was a NY marathon 10 or 20 years ago where the rabbit (a paid runner who sets the pace for the elite runners) was feeling strong and finished the race first. Normally the rabbit drops out before the end and normally he/she is ignored once identified by the other runners. As a valid elite runner (being the rabbit is a secret) he claimed the prize money and trophy. Oops.
    If you have a problem & think that someone else is going to solve it for you then you have two problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKPogue View Post
    What would give you that idea? Were you at the race? Did you see the course? Is it a flat course? Do you know anything about racing? Last I checked San Francisco is not considered flat and wouldn't be conducive to fast times, but I wouldn't know or comment on it because I wasn't there.
    With all due respect...ANY 3:05 marathon winner is not elite. Especially not when this woman ran her PR by 12 minutes. She has run 5 other marathons on 5 other courses I believe, and this was her fastest. It cannot be an abnormally slow course knowing that.

  20. #20
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    I too feel that she should at least be publicly recognized as having the fastest time, and a little hoopla at the event to go along with it. Maybe a bunch of free gear from Nike? FKNA...sounds like an awesome achievement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin View Post
    Nike needs to define "elite". Although a 3hr marathon is a great accomplishment, that by no means is an elite finish time. Something sub 2:50 would be a good starting point for a womens race. Arien properly seeded herself if she thought elite was comparable to olympic results.
    ^^^^^ Yeah, that.

    Regardless of prize money rules, she should have been awarded something honorary and they should have made a big deal over her.

    LAME.

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    The winner of the elite group should have been recognized as what she was, the winner of the elite group. She did not win the race.
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  23. #23
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    Good job Nike! Your shoes are not so bad after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nike+ / Nike Running
    Hello,

    Nike is announcing today that it recognizes Arien O'Connell as a winner
    in last weekend’s Nike Women’s Marathon with the fastest chip
    time, completing the full race in 2:55:11. She shattered her previous time
    and achieved an amazing accomplishment.

    Arien will receive the same recognition and prize, including a Tiffany
    bowl, the full marathon elite group winner received. Arien was
    unfortunately not immediately recognized as a race winner because she did not
    start the race with the elite running group, which is required by USATF
    standards. Because of their earlier start time, the runners in the
    elite group had no knowledge of the outstanding race Arien was running and
    could not adjust their strategies accordingly.

    Learning from the unique experience in this year’s race, Nike has
    decided today to eliminate the elite running group from future Nike
    Women's Marathons. Next year, all runners will run in the same group and all
    will be eligible to win.

    Nike has a proven track record of supporting athletes and we’re proud
    to be able to honor Arien and other athletes who surpass their goals
    and achieve great accomplishments.

    Sincerely,

    Nike+ / Nike Running
    People should learn endurance; they should learn to endure the discomforts of heat and cold, hunger and thirst; they should learn to be patient when receiving abuse and scorn; for it is the practice of endurance that quenches the fire of worldly passions which is burning up their bodies.
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  24. #24
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    Here is a run down on the Elite Benefits for the sport of running.

    Most marathons have gotten into a habit of extending “Elite” benefits to participants because it makes their marathon look fast. Elite runners at most marathons can receive a cash purse of $60k, paid travel expenses, paid hotel accommodations, food and an early start. This attracts a lot of foreigners if you haven’t noticed . . .

    The Nike Women’s Marathon (benefiting the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society) did not make their elite benefits available to the public. By judging from the Elite times, I doubt any benefits like hotel and transportation were extended, especially since there weren’t many foreigners in the top time… And since it “benefits the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society”, I doubt they were as frivolous with their prize payout.

    For the Hartford ING Marathon – check out their Elite benefits and qualifications.
    http://www.hartfordmarathon.com/mara...ifications.htm

    From the Hartford ING Marathon and others out there, it appears that an elite qualifying time for women is 2:55. This woman ran a 2:55.11 and her previous marathons were at least 12 minutes above the Elite qualification. She most likely would not have been accepted into the Elite category. She just had a good run.

    If there are no rules set, how can they justify their decision? What if a runner registers as an elite and decides to start with the normal group? The timing chip will pick up the precise splits. So, why join the elite group if the only benefit is a potential early start at the Nike Women’s Marathon?

    Nike & other marathon organizations need to get over the elite category...
    Last edited by 4EVA215; 10-22-2008 at 11:40 AM. Reason: typo

  25. #25
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    Nike & other marathon organizations need to get over the elite category...
    True that. WTF with the 20 minute head start? If you're truely "elite" the 20,000 hacks lined up behind you should not be an issue. PR blunder by Nike, but they admitted they effed up and made it right. Which is something not usually seen in corporate America these days.

    Way to go Nike, and feel free to ship me a case of Zoom Elite 4's, size 8.

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