the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[greenmachine]

I think the scarpa has been the most comfortable but there’s way too much room in that boot for my skinny as legs, ankle and feet


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[mntlion]

I should clarify that everyone is different and has different preferences and what works for you, works for you. But if it's not working for you, I'll try my ideas on you. I often find two big patterns with people who tour tons. 1. Their boots are way too big and it causes fit issues but they are used to the poor ski performance and don't care. and 2. they are guides who proformed hoji frees and they are destroying their ankles and insteps and are unwilling to get different boots.

yes. amazing answer!

[Flippo]

I just got fitted in Lange RX 130 with custom footbed. I have high arches. The fit is great but after 4 days skiing in them the pressure on the lateral malleolus is still killing me (results of supination?). It gets better when I flex/ski it but standing in lift line or walking in them is painful. I wonder if my ankle sits correctly in the ankle pocket of the liner. Should I go back to the bootfitter to have the liner molded / punched or just ski them more and see if it gets better as the liner conforms to my foot?

[mntlion]

I just got fitted in Lange RX 130 with custom footbed. I have high arches. The fit is great but after 4 days skiing in them the pressure on the lateral malleolus is still killing me (results of supination?). It gets better when I flex/ski it but standing in lift line or walking in them is painful. I wonder if my ankle sits correctly in the ankle pocket of the liner. Should I go back to the bootfitter to have the liner molded / punched or just ski them more and see if it gets better as the liner conforms to my foot?

you either need to move the foot further away from the shell (more supportive footbed)
or
you either need to move the shell further away from the foot (punch the shell)


if you foot feels balanced and no slop go #2, but I would look at solution #1 first as its harder to make a boot tighter later

[Flippo]

you either need to move the foot further away from the shell (more supportive footbed)
or
you either need to move the shell further away from the foot (punch the shell)


if you foot feels balanced and no slop go #2, but I would look at solution #1 first as its harder to make a boot tighter later

Should I give more time for the liner to pack out (it was not heat molded)?


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[mntlion]

Should I give more time for the liner to pack out (it was not heat molded)?


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has it gotten better or worse over the 4 days of use?

If getting better, ignore it and odds are it will go away

if getting worse, then answer above question.


or find somewhere to ski with shorter lines

[waxman]

I should clarify that everyone is different and has different preferences and what works for you, works for you. But if it's not working for you, I'll try my ideas on you. I often find two big patterns with people who tour tons. 1. Their boots are way too big and it causes fit issues but they are used to the poor ski performance and don't care. and 2. they are guides who proformed hoji frees and they are destroying their ankles and insteps and are unwilling to get different boots.

same answer but the boot is the Salomon S/Lab MTN (hint: a boot you got a deal on that doesn't fit or do what you want it to do is not a deal)

[zion zig zag]

Question for the experts here, and if this fits better in the thread devoted to this particular boot let me know and I'll move it.

I recently visited a well regarded bootfitter who told me that I had been assuming the wrong things about my foot and the boots I needed, so she put me into a Tecnica ZGTP. The two things I didn't like about the boot was the lack of forward lean and I needed less volume in my heel/ankle. So she put in a heel wedge to address both issues, and it did take up room in the ankle area and helped that problem. And it does allow me to squat a bit further than stock before my heels lift. But am I correct in that footbed ramp isn't the same thing as forward lean in the tongue/shaft of the boot? And it still doesn't feel like quite enough, as in for me to get low (near 90 degree angle) I have to have my ass stuck out too far back.

It seems like adding ramp to the footbed would exacerbate the ramp issue from most touring binding deltas. I try to add toe shims to have a delta of around 4-7 in my touring bindings, and I like a boot forward lean of about 16 degrees. Now it kind of feels like walking in heels. Anyway, it seems like a poor way to add forward lean but I can't put my finger on why.

I know Raide makes a part to increase the forward lean, what are other options? Is adding a spoiler better/worse/same as adding the heel shim? At this point I think I'd rather take up room with an Intuition liner and add the Raide part for more forward lean as this seems like the 'best skiing' option. Right, wrong, anything I'm missing?

[oltrepiave]

And for a different opinion I would suggest the World Cup if you look for any support from your strap. The elasticity is the same flex as the expert but it has a lock out after a certain amount of travel. I find the lock out helps keep the strap supportive. Without it I find you have to over tighten the expert and it cuts off blood flow. The overflexing of the expert tends to make them bag out quickly.

Hey GoldenBC could you expand on some thoughts of yours (on this thread maybe but it could be somewhere else) about boosters (WC or experts) and actual increases/decreases in stiffness?

I run WC boosters on my (pre BOA) hawx xtds and i love them. I keep em next to the liner tongue so that i can also loosen them and re-tighten them easier once i transition. I find that having them so close to the liner gives me more progressiveness but with a reliable "block" when overflexed, compared to simply keeping them on top of everything and having to juggle buckle tightness as well. Matter of fact I find myself tightening buckles less than i used to back when i ran those boosters on the outside.

I tried the same with some rx130 and some Experts and it just doesn't work the same. Maybe it's the burlier (actual) flex, maybe it's how the shell and the boosters (don't) interact, maybe it's the fit (calf and foot in general are swimming in the shell, shell fit is ok).

just interested in feedback from you because a lot of people tend to consider boosters as a "stiffener" but as you said mechanically there must be more to it.

[gregL]

Question for the experts here, and if this fits better in the thread devoted to this particular boot let me know and I'll move it.

I recently visited a well regarded bootfitter who told me that I had been assuming the wrong things about my foot and the boots I needed, so she put me into a Tecnica ZGTP. The two things I didn't like about the boot was the lack of forward lean and I needed less volume in my heel/ankle. So she put in a heel wedge to address both issues, and it did take up room in the ankle area and helped that problem. And it does allow me to squat a bit further than stock before my heels lift. But am I correct in that footbed ramp isn't the same thing as forward lean in the tongue/shaft of the boot? And it still doesn't feel like quite enough, as in for me to get low (near 90 degree angle) I have to have my ass stuck out too far back.

It seems like adding ramp to the footbed would exacerbate the ramp issue from most touring binding deltas. I try to add toe shims to have a delta of around 4-7 in my touring bindings, and I like a boot forward lean of about 16 degrees. Now it kind of feels like walking in heels. Anyway, it seems like a poor way to add forward lean but I can't put my finger on why.

I know Raide makes a part to increase the forward lean, what are other options? Is adding a spoiler better/worse/same as adding the heel shim? At this point I think I'd rather take up room with an Intuition liner and add the Raide part for more forward lean as this seems like the 'best skiing' option. Right, wrong, anything I'm missing?

Your suspicion is correct; bootboard ramp and forward lean are separate but related values. I'm not generally a fan of heel lifts for the reasons you mention - makes you feel like you're in high heels, only really deals with heel lift by putting your heel in a higher, narrower part of the liner, "bends" your foot under the talus, and compounds tech binding delta issues. Reducing volume in the heel and ankle is tough in touring/hybrid boots because there are really few options that address this (Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD and next year's Salomon Shift Alpha are the two that come to mind with smaller diameter cuffs). The other options are a Zipfit GFT or Atomic Hawx Professional XTD liner, both considerably heavier and more $$$. The ghetto fix is to glue foam around the ankle yourself, which has limited durability.

When I spent a lot of time in the Zero G Tour Pro, I carried a set of Lange World Cup spoilers with me to put the forward lean at about 15 degrees (they wouldn't stay put while skinning, but I glued some Velcro on the liners to hold them securely enough for the downhill). Using the spoiler leaves the 4 degree boot board intact. If I still used them a lot I would probably be in the market for the Raide aftermarket part (next year's redesign of the ZGTP has slightly more forward lean @ 14 degrees). Be sure to heat the screws with a soldering gun if you take the catch off or you will trash the Pozidrive #2 heads.

[GoldenBC]

Hey GoldenBC could you expand on some thoughts of yours (on this thread maybe but it could be somewhere else) about boosters (WC or experts) and actual increases/decreases in stiffness?

I run WC boosters on my (pre BOA) hawx xtds and i love them. I keep em next to the liner tongue so that i can also loosen them and re-tighten them easier once i transition. I find that having them so close to the liner gives me more progressiveness but with a reliable "block" when overflexed, compared to simply keeping them on top of everything and having to juggle buckle tightness as well. Matter of fact I find myself tightening buckles less than i used to back when i ran those boosters on the outside.

I tried the same with some rx130 and some Experts and it just doesn't work the same. Maybe it's the burlier (actual) flex, maybe it's how the shell and the boosters (don't) interact, maybe it's the fit (calf and foot in general are swimming in the shell, shell fit is ok).

just interested in feedback from you because a lot of people tend to consider boosters as a "stiffener" but as you said mechanically there must be more to it.

You’ve nailed it. A rigid strap is stiffer than an elastic strap. No arguing there. The problem with most rigid straps is they don’t have much flexibility in how they sit on your boots. At best, you can slide them under your shell if they are a cam strap variety. When a straps sits on top of the shell, it often doesn’t dramatically change the feel of a boot.

An elastic strap is always a cam strap, so it can go anywhere. With the vertical compliance of the elastic bands (or the edge between the two straps on an atomic dual strap) the strap can conform and be worn at an angle, higher on the tongue, as well as just tucked under the shell.

Wearing it higher gives you less leverage over the boot, keeps the liner tighter to your shin, and gives you a progressive entrance to the flex before you fully engage the shell. Try this with a rigid strap and you will feel like your boot is twice as stiff.

The World Cup and Expert boosters have the exact same amount of elastic resistance. Both are three bands. Both can be easily flexed by a 75lb kid. The World Cup just has a rigid lock out after a half inch of travel. By that point you are almost engaging the shell anyways.

Try putting the WC strap on the langes. Sounds like the cuff fit isn’t good for you, which doesn’t help. Especially since there is probably a void at the very bottom of your shin.

[zion zig zag]

Your suspicion is correct; bootboard ramp and forward lean are separate but related values. I'm not generally a fan of heel lifts for the reasons you mention - makes you feel like you're in high heels, only really deals with heel lift by putting your heel in a higher, narrower part of the liner, "bends" your foot under the talus, and compounds tech binding delta issues. Reducing volume in the heel and ankle is tough in touring/hybrid boots because there are really few options that address this (Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD and next year's Salomon Shift Alpha are the two that come to mind with smaller diameter cuffs). The other options are a Zipfit GFT or Atomic Hawx Professional XTD liner, both considerably heavier and more $$$. The ghetto fix is to glue foam around the ankle yourself, which has limited durability.

When I spent a lot of time in the Zero G Tour Pro, I carried a set of Lange World Cup spoilers with me to put the forward lean at about 15 degrees (they wouldn't stay put while skinning, but I glued some Velcro on the liners to hold them securely enough for the downhill). Using the spoiler leaves the 4 degree boot board intact. If I still used them a lot I would probably be in the market for the Raide aftermarket part (next year's redesign of the ZGTP has slightly more forward lean @ 14 degrees). Be sure to heat the screws with a soldering gun if you take the catch off or you will trash the Pozidrive #2 heads.

Thanks for the detailed reply! I think for now I’ll go ghetto foam wrap around the ankle and some spoilers and see what works.

I’m guessing since you didn’t mention an Intuition upgrade, you don’t feel like they take up ankle room very well? Also, does anyone know where to get the Raide part? Looks like none available on the site. TIA

[turnfarmer]

Heel lifts should only be used for limited ankle dorsiflexion. If you have normal dorsiflexion they can throw off your balance. If you have limited ankle dorsiflexion heel lifts will improve your balance.

[zion zig zag]

Heel lifts should only be used for limited ankle dorsiflexion. If you have normal dorsiflexion they can throw off your balance. If you have limited ankle dorsiflexion heel lifts will improve your balance.

I have pretty good dorsiflexion, I’d rather my foot stay flatter and the cuff have more forward lean.

[GoldenBC]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I think for now I’ll go ghetto foam wrap around the ankle and some spoilers and see what works.

I’m guessing since you didn’t mention an Intuition upgrade, you don’t feel like they take up ankle room very well? Also, does anyone know where to get the Raide part? Looks like none available on the site. TIA

Intuition would add hold over a zero G liner but wouldn’t solve all the hold issues from my experience. I glue a lot of heel pinch pads on intuitions. And then after 20 days they loosen a lot. The issue is they don’t ale a high density touring liner that actually offers support. If you go high volume, you lose toe space. For this reason, the HD race is my favourite intuition. HD foam around ankle, low volume foam around toes. Not perfect but helps. And you have to cut your own walk mode in (which works well). But for $300 when a Zipfit is $600 it doesn’t make sense financially. I tried to develop a better touring liner with them but I have been ghosted.

I find a pad on the bottom of the shin very beneficial for ankle movement and heel lift. Heel pinch pads work wonders.

[priapism]

https://skimo.co/patriot-footbeds-liner-sleeves

These are made of neoprene and can take up volume similarly to foam but without adhesives. I suppose they are harder to customize

[GoldenBC]

And less likely to give ankle/heel hold. Those are for your lower leg.

[riff]

This all quite interesting. i’m struggling with heel lift this season, and a local fitter put in heel lifts for the reasons that have been stated; now I feel my geometry is all messy and I’m stuck with my weight too far back. Might pull the lifts and go nuts with pinch pads. For reference: low instep, skinny heel/ankle, huge calves. Intuition pro tour and tour wrap in La Sportiva Skorpius, pro tour skis like crap but walks better. Good custom insoles.
Plum Oazo bindings(+4delta) 110 touring days a year.
Mortons neuroma too. Kinda struggling to get it right this year.


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[PeachesNCream]

I have a bone spur about an inch below and forward of my ankle and it causes a lot of pain, almost unskiable if I ski 2 days in a row. It’s almost directly under the middle buckle (kryptons). I am not in close proximity to a boot fitter so before I take up part of a vacation to get my boots fit, is this something that can be addressed? I’m thinking it’ll be pretty hard to punch or grind under a boot buckle? I like the feel of a 3 piece boot but thinking it doesn’t work with this bone spur. I have no issues with my hawx xtds

Also is length easy to punch/grind? I tend to lose my toenails every winter and thinking a little length could really help


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[zion zig zag]

This all quite interesting. i’m struggling with heel lift this season, and a local fitter put in heel lifts for the reasons that have been stated; now I feel my geometry is all messy and I’m stuck with my weight too far back. Might pull the lifts and go nuts with pinch pads. For reference: low instep, skinny heel/ankle, huge calves. Intuition pro tour and tour wrap in La Sportiva Skorpius, pro tour skis like crap but walks better. Good custom insoles.
Plum Oazo bindings(+4delta) 110 touring days a year.
Mortons neuroma too. Kinda struggling to get it right this year.


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Careful with the foam pads that wrap around the back of the ankle. They push your foot forward some, which can aggravate my Mortons neuroma. Your feet sound like mine minus the huge calves.

Can't remember if I mentioned it in my long post, but my bootfitter thinks I was making my mortons worse by having too much toe/forefoot room. Her theory is that my foot was rolling around in the boot, and getting pushed forward to where the toes narrowed 100's of times a day. Yeah, I'm struggling with boots right now too.

[mntlion]

This all quite interesting. i’m struggling with heel lift this season, and a local fitter put in heel lifts for the reasons that have been stated; now I feel my geometry is all messy and I’m stuck with my weight too far back. Might pull the lifts and go nuts with pinch pads. For reference: low instep, skinny heel/ankle, huge calves. Intuition pro tour and tour wrap in La Sportiva Skorpius, pro tour skis like crap but walks better. Good custom insoles.
Plum Oazo bindings(+4delta) 110 touring days a year.
Mortons neuroma too. Kinda struggling to get it right this year.


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try either (both?) "L" shaped padding behind the ankle bones to help trap the heel down, or try some of the tongue, or the sides of the liner, over the flex point of the boot, to help drive you back into the heel

how many days on the liners? intuitions (and mosts tock lienrs) are 50-100 days. If more time to replace the liners

[mntlion]

I have a bone spur about an inch below and forward of my ankle and it causes a lot of pain, almost unskiable if I ski 2 days in a row. It’s almost directly under the middle buckle (kryptons). I am not in close proximity to a boot fitter so before I take up part of a vacation to get my boots fit, is this something that can be addressed? I’m thinking it’ll be pretty hard to punch or grind under a boot buckle? I like the feel of a 3 piece boot but thinking it doesn’t work with this bone spur. I have no issues with my hawx xtds

Also is length easy to punch/grind? I tend to lose my toenails every winter and thinking a little length could really help


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Number of days on the liners? (if more then 100 just replace)

custom footbed? (if nto get one)

can you just ski your atomics?

easy to punch on that part, or add padding to the liner around that spot (a donut of padding so the ouch bit is in the middle of the donut shape

[PeachesNCream]

Number of days on the liners? (if more then 100 just replace)

custom footbed? (if nto get one)

can you just ski your atomics?

easy to punch on that part, or add padding to the liner around that spot (a donut of padding so the ouch bit is in the middle of the donut shape

Maybe 25 days

Nope. A footbed will help an ankle bone spur or you’re just saying this is a good idea in general

I can, but they’re the xtd version so not quite as beefy and at 200lbs, I notice.

Good to know. Thanks.


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[oltrepiave]

You’ve nailed it. A rigid strap is stiffer than an elastic strap. No arguing there. The problem with most rigid straps is they don’t have much flexibility in how they sit on your boots. At best, you can slide them under your shell if they are a cam strap variety. When a straps sits on top of the shell, it often doesn’t dramatically change the feel of a boot.

An elastic strap is always a cam strap, so it can go anywhere. With the vertical compliance of the elastic bands (or the edge between the two straps on an atomic dual strap) the strap can conform and be worn at an angle, higher on the tongue, as well as just tucked under the shell.

Wearing it higher gives you less leverage over the boot, keeps the liner tighter to your shin, and gives you a progressive entrance to the flex before you fully engage the shell. Try this with a rigid strap and you will feel like your boot is twice as stiff.

The World Cup and Expert boosters have the exact same amount of elastic resistance. Both are three bands. Both can be easily flexed by a 75lb kid. The World Cup just has a rigid lock out after a half inch of travel. By that point you are almost engaging the shell anyways.

Try putting the WC strap on the langes. Sounds like the cuff fit isn’t good for you, which doesn’t help. Especially since there is probably a void at the very bottom of your shin.

thank you so much. Given the ill-fitting feeling of the RX do you think i could try squeezing a low volume cam strap (like the stock one from the xtd which is has 0 bands/beef) under the shells or should i just swap the WC on the RX directly?

Also, those expert boosters i have recycled for the RX are quite old/clapped out, you think i'd feel the difference on my XTDs? according to my understanding they will bottom out earlier than the WC (kinda like a packed out liner i guess)

i am super curious about all the different combinations but don't wanna really mess up my romance with the XTD (my actual everyday boot). Still it's super interesting how even though i'm a lightweight guy adding the WC on them has enabled me to ski more confident and perceive them as more powerful while all i feel like i'm doing is simply maximizing the progressiveness of their flex.

[oltrepiave]

And less likely to give ankle/heel hold. Those are for your lower leg.

really? i had them for years and they did work, i stopped using them once i found the right boot and destroyed the liners themselves/"pockets" for the inserts.