the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[gregL]

One other question: would it be possible just to mold the toe box with that method? I don't want space anywhere else...so ideally a punch would be best, but i can try just heating the toe box (i.e. only dipping the toe of the boot in the water to try to get more targeted space across the met heads.

210 F. is not hot enough for Pebax Rnew, and you don't want to heat the sole or top of the scaffo (shell) at all. There is a reason they use heat guns in shops (they direct localized heat well) - you just have to figure out the balance point between melting the top surface of the plastic (bad) and getting the plastic hot enough to move (necessary). If is different with every shell . . .

[Sledzski]

Question: when measuring shell fit for the ankle hold, where is most appropriate measurement and how much space should you ideally looking for? Typically in a 28.5 lv (in most brands) I have ~15 behind heel and kissing sides of forefoot and a tight instep. All looks good but over time a reoccurring theme is ankle hold (slop, cranking down buckles, collapsing instep of overlap, and then circulation). I have a super lv ankle (9”)

Trying to decide if I should be sizing down again to a 27.5 (mv for instep clearance) and doing a bunch of work for length or look at a wrap liner for Mach lv (I love how it skis, flex, heel hold, etc but as liner pack out I find myself with cold toes due to buckle crank of upper cuff). Seeing my fitter tonight to discuss but just looking for general understanding for shell fit ankle measuring.

One thin sock, new supportive footbed(skis great), buckles facing out.


Thanks all. Truly appreciate all the responses in this thread. It helps educate.


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[gregL]

Question: when measuring shell fit for the ankle hold, where is most appropriate measurement and how much space should you ideally looking for? Typically in a 28.5 lv (in most brands) I have ~15 behind heel and kissing sides of forefoot and a tight instep. All looks good but over time a reoccurring theme is ankle hold (slop, cranking down buckles, collapsing instep of overlap, and then circulation). I have a super lv ankle (9”)

Traditional shell fit (space behind your heel with toe(s) touching the front of the shell and ankle fit are separate issues. One measures overall length of the shell interior, the other is harder to quantify and isn't normally publicized. A 15mm shell fit for length is pretty common for good skiers, a 5mm shell fit is going to require some bootfitter assistance.

Small diameter ankle people will usually do better by looking at a different model - at present the Atomic Hawx Ultra series is the clear winner in this regard, with the Salomon S Max series next best. An LV-lasted Tecnica or Lange is significantly larger, even though the overall fit is narrow. You can get a sense of the difference by buckling all of the above-mentioned boots up and wrapping your fingers around the cuff. (You may or may not care for Atomic's 15 degree default forward lean and relative difficulty getting the boot on/off).

[sweatypowderpig]

just sharing my recent experience in case it helps anyone else.
pro patroller, ski ~180 days a year, 180# skiing weight with gear, III+ skier and I'm very aggressive with my turns, lots of pressure on the front of my boots.

Lange RX 130, zipfit world cup liners and a custom orthotic. I had been experiencing a lot of slop, lack of ankle hold and heel lift since last year. tried to adding cork multiple times which would help for a couple of days and then it would get sloppy again.
the season ended prematurely as we all know, so the can got kicked down the road to this season. ended up replacing the zipfits. they had ~750 days of hard, full-days of skiing on em, plus all the walking around we do. they no longer held their shape in the vertical plane and were collapsing down into the boot.

this helped things out with most of the slop, but not all of it. the first day in the new liners really aggravated my Haglund's deformities and they were very tender. I removed my spoilers to lower my heels a little further into the shell's heel pocket and the second day wasn't as painful, but there was still a lot of movement in my heel. I paid very close attention to what i felt going on so I could relay it to my bootfitter. my thoughts were: heel punches to accomodate the haglund's deformities and I had a sneaking suspicion that the ultimate cause was the shells. they felt sloppy and soft right off the top and required what felt like a lot of dorsiflexion before they stiffened up. this caused too much movement of my ankle and caused my heel to lift.

Sure enough, I tried on a new pair of shells and the difference was night and day. I'd say the old shells had ~550 days on em. new shells, two new heel punches along with two small navicular punches to match the old shells and a bit more cork and they ski like a dream.

Two takeaways:
1: if your shells are on the older side, don't discount the fact that they may be finito. my plastic was in great shape with no cracks, but they just didn't offer the support of a new 130 which created a cascade of other issues.
2: really try and pay attention to what you feel going on. what conditions/situations cause/aggravate it. it's invaluable to help your bootfitter diagnose what may be going on and how to fix it. if you can't describe accurately and in detail what is going on, there's not much a bootfitter can do to help other than throw darts at a wall and see what sticks. in my case, no amount of liner and shell work would have fixed that fact that my shells were simply no longer up to the task.

[123ski]

Question: when measuring shell fit for the ankle hold, where is most appropriate measurement and how much space should you ideally looking for? Typically in a 28.5 lv (in most brands) I have ~15 behind heel and kissing sides of forefoot and a tight instep. All looks good but over time a reoccurring theme is ankle hold (slop, cranking down buckles, collapsing instep of overlap, and then circulation). I have a super lv ankle (9”)

Trying to decide if I should be sizing down again to a 27.5 (mv for instep clearance) and doing a bunch of work for length or look at a wrap liner for Mach lv (I love how it skis, flex, heel hold, etc but as liner pack out I find myself with cold toes due to buckle crank of upper cuff). Seeing my fitter tonight to discuss but just looking for general understanding for shell fit ankle measuring.

One thin sock, new supportive footbed(skis great), buckles facing out.


Thanks all. Truly appreciate all the responses in this thread. It helps educate.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Get zip fits - solved my ankle hold even in LV boots which are too narrow for forefoot but wide in ankle


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[mntlion]

Question: when measuring shell fit for the ankle hold, where is most appropriate measurement and how much space should you ideally looking for? Typically in a 28.5 lv (in most brands) I have ~15 behind heel and kissing sides of forefoot and a tight instep. All looks good but over time a reoccurring theme is ankle hold (slop, cranking down buckles, collapsing instep of overlap, and then circulation). I have a super lv ankle (9”)

Trying to decide if I should be sizing down again to a 27.5 (mv for instep clearance) and doing a bunch of work for length or look at a wrap liner for Mach lv (I love how it skis, flex, heel hold, etc but as liner pack out I find myself with cold toes due to buckle crank of upper cuff). Seeing my fitter tonight to discuss but just looking for general understanding for shell fit ankle measuring.

One thin sock, new supportive footbed(skis great), buckles facing out.


Thanks all. Truly appreciate all the responses in this thread. It helps educate.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

ask the fitter and try on a 27

also go with a true race boot in 28.

[mntlion]

just sharing my recent experience in case it helps anyone else.
pro patroller, ski ~180 days a year, 180# skiing weight with gear, III+ skier and I'm very aggressive with my turns, lots of pressure on the front of my boots.

Lange RX 130, zipfit world cup liners and a custom orthotic. I had been experiencing a lot of slop, lack of ankle hold and heel lift since last year. tried to adding cork multiple times which would help for a couple of days and then it would get sloppy again.
the season ended prematurely as we all know, so the can got kicked down the road to this season. ended up replacing the zipfits. they had ~750 days of hard, full-days of skiing on em, plus all the walking around we do. they no longer held their shape in the vertical plane and were collapsing down into the boot.

this helped things out with most of the slop, but not all of it. the first day in the new liners really aggravated my Haglund's deformities and they were very tender. I removed my spoilers to lower my heels a little further into the shell's heel pocket and the second day wasn't as painful, but there was still a lot of movement in my heel. I paid very close attention to what i felt going on so I could relay it to my bootfitter. my thoughts were: heel punches to accomodate the haglund's deformities and I had a sneaking suspicion that the ultimate cause was the shells. they felt sloppy and soft right off the top and required what felt like a lot of dorsiflexion before they stiffened up. this caused too much movement of my ankle and caused my heel to lift.

Sure enough, I tried on a new pair of shells and the difference was night and day. I'd say the old shells had ~550 days on em. new shells, two new heel punches along with two small navicular punches to match the old shells and a bit more cork and they ski like a dream.

Two takeaways:
1: if your shells are on the older side, don't discount the fact that they may be finito. my plastic was in great shape with no cracks, but they just didn't offer the support of a new 130 which created a cascade of other issues.
2: really try and pay attention to what you feel going on. what conditions/situations cause/aggravate it. it's invaluable to help your bootfitter diagnose what may be going on and how to fix it. if you can't describe accurately and in detail what is going on, there's not much a bootfitter can do to help other than throw darts at a wall and see what sticks. in my case, no amount of liner and shell work would have fixed that fact that my shells were simply no longer up to the task.

good to hear it worked out. Bigger, more agressive guys + long days = stuff wears out.

[Sledzski]

Thanks all. Fitter thinks we are close with current shell, so we are band-aiding it while we hunt for the right shell fit in with 27s or narrow throated or race 28s. He echoed your guidance. Appreciate the insights and the advice.


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[mntlion]

ask the fitter and try on a 27

also go with a true race boot in 28.

http://blizzardskioutlet.com/product...duct=*30155001

http://blizzardskioutlet.com/product...duct=*30155003

size 8 = 27

[fleaches]

Any ideas for fixing pain on the outside (pinky) side of the foot, mid foot from just behind the mets to just in front of the heel? I have only had this problem in my current touring boots (maestrales), and it takes a little while to develop. I originally thought it was a narrowness issue but bootfitter pretty much fixed it last year with a little foam under the inside edge of the insole heel. The pain is back this year though so wondering if there are any other tweaks to try, or if I just need to man up and get my feet used to being in boots again.

Probably not from clamping down on the instep too much, this happens with the toe buckle totally open/removed from the closure wire.

Really appreciate any ideas (and explanations--curious about where this comes from)!

Thanks!

[mntlion]

Any ideas for fixing pain on the outside (pinky) side of the foot, mid foot from just behind the mets to just in front of the heel? I have only had this problem in my current touring boots (maestrales), and it takes a little while to develop. I originally thought it was a narrowness issue but bootfitter pretty much fixed it last year with a little foam under the inside edge of the insole heel. The pain is back this year though so wondering if there are any other tweaks to try, or if I just need to man up and get my feet used to being in boots again.

Probably not from clamping down on the instep too much, this happens with the toe buckle totally open/removed from the closure wire.

Really appreciate any ideas (and explanations--curious about where this comes from)!

Thanks!

please read and answer the 10 questions at the start of this thread. Will help us answer the question/help you

[fleaches]

Apologies! I should know better.

1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser?

About the same, during breaks I'll unbuckle everything but I think most of the relief comes from just taking weight off and letting the feet "float." Would be worse if I buckled down the toes tightly. In ski mode instep and cuff are tight and can still feel it.

2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks?

No difference with medium to very thin socks. Haven't tried very thick socks.

3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)?

Have tried messing around with no footbed, flat piece of intuition foam, and medium arch OTS footbeds (Sidas and Sole). No noticeable difference for this problem anyways. In my resort boots I ski without footbeds since they are a bit tight on the instep and have never had this issue.

4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)?

Best unweighted, and better skiing than touring.

5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?)

Worse throughout the day, takes maybe 30 minutes of touring to start? Feet still sore after removing boots and putting on normal shoes for a couple of hours.

6) BOW on the first vs the third day?

Better after a few days, or at least it takes longer for the pain to be so noticeable.

7) BOW on harder or easier terrain?

No difference while skiing. Standing around waiting worse than skiing.

8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser?

No difference.

9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions?

For the most part unweighting = better, but not gone.

10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last?

None, except for more time walking around barefoot this year.

[mntlion]

thanks

and this problem is JUST with your touring boots?

would it happen if you just skied on them (and not toured/walked) Would it happen if you skied them on hill?

trying to see if its an issue with the boot, or with the movement of walking.

[fleaches]

thanks

and this problem is JUST with your touring boots?

would it happen if you just skied on them (and not toured/walked) Would it happen if you skied them on hill?

trying to see if its an issue with the boot, or with the movement of walking.

It is mostly a touring boot problem. Resort boots are a significantly tighter fit but probably more anatomical--I bought some S Pros that were way too small and did the oven mold thing. If I ski these with a footbed my feet will go to sleep before I would normally develop pain in the touring boots, but I don't recall experiencing the outside edge foot pain, at least not to the same degree. With no footbed they are very snug but there is never any pain. The touring boots are a larger size, but possibly a narrower last than the baked S Pros? With no liner, my foot isn't pressing up against the side or anything though.

I did ski the touring boots at the resort last year just riding lifts and had the same issue, so while walking might be worse skiing will still do it. In this case standing around in the lift line was the worst while skiing/lift riding were a little better.

[mntlion]

what is the lengh and width of the shell fit on the touring vs on hill boots.


any chance your foot (in at boots) is cramping due to clutching/grabbing as the boot is bigger, causing the foot to move around and so the foot is clawing trying to stay in place?

[123ski]

Does anyone know why my feet keep slipping out of my boots whenever I try to turn?

Maybe I need some new intuition liners?

I think my shop did too aggressive or a punch on the medial malleolus.

My feet are always cold.

And my boot seems to be cutting my instep.

Amount of heel lift is insane.

Picture below:




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[fleaches]

what is the lengh and width of the shell fit on the touring vs on hill boots.


any chance your foot (in at boots) is cramping due to clutching/grabbing as the boot is bigger, causing the foot to move around and so the foot is clawing trying to stay in place?

Shell fit on hill boots like half a finger ~5 mm behind the heel. Touring boots more like 1.5 fingers ~15 mm behind the heel. Width actually seems pretty similar in the sense that weighted feet just make contact with the edge, a little hard to measure exactly. The touring boot is definitely a little more roomy but I'm not exactly swimming in it. I'll watch out for any clutching next time I'm out.

Trying on the shells side by side was illuminating though. Foot alignment is really different in the two. In the hill boot ankle is straight up and big toe bunion just touches the side up front, but there is some room on the big toe side of the boot so the foot remains straight. In the touring boot the inside edge of the boot is a lot flatter, this pushes on the bunion and as a result the foot wants to move outwards and without a footbed the foot pronates inward and the ankle bone makes contact with the cuff. Forcing the ankle straight puts a lot of pressure on the bunion. I'm not sure how this would translate to pain on the outside edge of the foot but I wonder if it's related.

[mntlion]

Shell fit on hill boots like half a finger ~5 mm behind the heel. Touring boots more like 1.5 fingers ~15 mm behind the heel. Width actually seems pretty similar in the sense that weighted feet just make contact with the edge, a little hard to measure exactly. The touring boot is definitely a little more roomy but I'm not exactly swimming in it. I'll watch out for any clutching next time I'm out.

Trying on the shells side by side was illuminating though. Foot alignment is really different in the two. In the hill boot ankle is straight up and big toe bunion just touches the side up front, but there is some room on the big toe side of the boot so the foot remains straight. In the touring boot the inside edge of the boot is a lot flatter, this pushes on the bunion and as a result the foot wants to move outwards and without a footbed the foot pronates inward and the ankle bone makes contact with the cuff. Forcing the ankle straight puts a lot of pressure on the bunion. I'm not sure how this would translate to pain on the outside edge of the foot but I wonder if it's related.

more info is a good thing.

watch to see if pain on foot is almost a cramping from clutching?

and feel out if the foot alignment in the touring shell is the issue.

[fleaches]

more info is a good thing.

watch to see if pain on foot is almost a cramping from clutching?

and feel out if the foot alignment in the touring shell is the issue.

Thanks!

Actually I can see how the foot alignment might be causing my issue. Trying the boots on with liners again I can feel myself unconsciously weighting the outside of my foot to relieve the pressure on my ankle bones. Will pay close attention to this next time I am out but maybe that's the problem.

[Squirreljam]

So, boot peeps, for the first time in a few decades I have a boot problem.

I've been skiing in the lange rx130 (regular volume) since around 2011 - the translucent green clog/white cuff ones, probably have 250-350 days. They've skied great and never a fit problem. They're approaching end of life, I've done what I can to extend - replaced buckles/ladders, drilled holes at end of cracks to stop propagation, etc. Liners totally packed out. Over summer I bought on deep discount (under $250) the same boot, model year 18-19, the all black one (i know, red would be faster). Both pairs are same size; shell fit with both has a finger and a half length with met heads very close to sides, almost brushing, in the forefoot. Instep height in both feels similar when shell fitting. The shells' max width measures pretty similar on both on the outside, I can't get calipers inside to measure. It looks like the max width on the new ones doesn't extend as far back on the lateral side (ie, gets narrower quicker) and it also looks like the shell tapers narrow more quickly from bottom to top (ie, dorsal toe box is narrower than plantar).

So - my problem is, I rapidly get numb toes in the new ones and when taking them off, a sensation of relief that the met heads are able to spread out, that they are compressed from side to side. BOW says loosening buckles doesn't help much but thinner stock footbed does over custom w fairly high arch. My foot is high arched but not crazy and not super flexible, I also have moderate hammer toes but the toe box height doesn't seem to be an issue here.

Wondering if I should pursue: 1, suck it up debbie and break them in more; 2, slit liner on sides of met heads; 3, punch/grind shell?
1) BOW with the buckles tighter or looser? – no real difference, slightly B looser but still numb/tingly/pain
2) BOW with thinner or thicker socks? B thinner
3) BOW with any footbeds (custom, stock, none, etc)? B w stock over custom
4) BOW skiing, standing, or feet un-weighted (hanging off a chair lift)? none
5) BOW thru out the day (and when does the pain start?) after about 10 mins
6) BOW on the first vs the third day? Haven’t been able to go more than an hour or maybe two
7) BOW on harder or easier terrain? neither
8) BOW with the power straps (velcro straps) tighter or looser? neither
9) BOW if you do any particular movements, or actions? No
10) Any medical, health, or weight changes since you used them last? n/a; new

Thanks - Bob

[mntlion]

just sounds like packing in a new boot.

just for fun, try the old liner in the new shell. I bet the new numbness will go away.

then try new liner in old shell. See what that does.

So use new shell and liner, with a REALLY thin sock, and no footbed, and lower buckle 100% off (not loose) and see what that does?

[Sledzski]

Question: when measuring shell fit for the ankle hold, where is most appropriate measurement and how much space should you ideally looking for? Typically in a 28.5 lv (in most brands) I have ~15 behind heel and kissing sides of forefoot and a tight instep. All looks good but over time a reoccurring theme is ankle hold (slop, cranking down buckles, collapsing instep of overlap, and then circulation). I have a super lv ankle (9”)

Trying to decide if I should be sizing down again to a 27.5 (mv for instep clearance) and doing a bunch of work for length or look at a wrap liner for Mach lv (I love how it skis, flex, heel hold, etc but as liner pack out I find myself with cold toes due to buckle crank of upper cuff). Seeing my fitter tonight to discuss but just looking for general understanding for shell fit ankle measuring.

One thin sock, new supportive footbed(skis great), buckles facing out.


Thanks all. Truly appreciate all the responses in this thread. It helps educate.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Mntlion, gregL, 123

Hit a couple shops to slip into some different 27 shell. Most of the fitters give me a “maybe?” On whether a 27 could work, after we did some measuring and shell fitting. (Left measures longer with a ~12-13mm fit in Mach lv with high instep). The hunt continues, I am taking notes on different shells.

In meantime, all felt I am really close in Mach LV 28. I worked with normal fitter to make a few forefoot punches I have needed for a bit and bake an intuition we got at a steal of a price to get me through the search. Pretty locked and loaded right now.

If 27 isn’t a go it’s on to lv throat 28 or full race...maybe with zips once shell work done.

Just want to say thanks again. Your input made discussing options with fitters easier/more productive.

Thanks for all the efforts. Appreciated.


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[slcdawg]

Coming back to this thread after 20 days on my boots (S/Max). I have had the shop heat mold the shells 3 times to expand room in my right boot. I've been (too?) conservative to avoid over doing it and still having some circulation/pain issues. I ski with the two toe buckles unbuckled but have to take the boot off after 3 hours of skiing to get some circulation back. The pressure is on top of the foot on the ridge (highpoint) between my ankle and big toe, and the sixth toe area. I'm thinking about baking them myself. How much foam padding do I want to use, and how tight do you buckle them? I love the performance from the heel and ankle hold and don't want to lose that.

This shell is designed to be heat molded and it works well. It doesn't get bigger everywhere, only where there is pressure from your foot. If you've been able to ski a couple days in it, just heat molding the shell should be plenty; you can always do the liner later if needed but there isn't that much moldable foam in the forefoot of the liner and the shell moves better with a cold liner in place. Around 8 minutes @ 240 F. for the 120/130/130 Carbon.

[gregL]

Coming back to this thread after 20 days on my boots (S/Max). I have had the shop heat mold the shells 3 times to expand room in my right boot. I've been (too?) conservative to avoid over doing it and still having some circulation/pain issues. I ski with the two toe buckles unbuckled but have to take the boot off after 3 hours of skiing to get some circulation back. The pressure is on top of the foot on the ridge (highpoint) between my ankle and big toe, and the sixth toe area. I'm thinking about baking them myself. How much foam padding do I want to use, and how tight do you buckle them? I love the performance from the heel and ankle hold and don't want to lose that.

If they've been baked 3 times baking them again is not going to accomplish much. You need more volume; the way to do that is grind a few millimeters off the styrofoam bootboard (it's quite thick). Try 2mm at a time until it's tight but bearable.

You may need to use a coathanger with a bent tip to get the bootboard out, they often use hot glue to stick the thing in the shell.

[slcdawg]

Thanks for the input. I've been really conservative with the shell. Do you think a more aggressive bake (more foam, more pressure) would expand it? Or, is that a lost cause?

Any tips on how to evenly grind the bootboard? Or, should I have the shop do that? Thanks!

If they've been baked 3 times baking them again is not going to accomplish much. You need more volume; the way to do that is grind a few millimeters off the styrofoam bootboard (it's quite thick). Try 2mm at a time until it's tight but bearable.

You may need to use a coathanger with a bent tip to get the bootboard out, they often use hot glue to stick the thing in the shell.