the answer to "WTF is wrong with my boots?"

[mntlion]

100-120 days on the boot

Day 1 was better, but could still feel it, especially on firmer days.

Have about 15 mm in the front and slightly touching to 5 mm on the sides.

and if you try on a new boot (or new liner, in this boot) how is it? I'm guessing that the liner is packed out and you are moving around a bit. Maybe a "C" pad around the pressure point?

plus what greg said too.

[slowroastin]

Any recommended boot fitters is the Big Sky area?

My Lupo TI’s were butchered by my local shop and Ive started using my old boots with about 200 days on them. I’ll be skiing Big Sky and Bridger at the end of the month and would like to get new boots.


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[Tobsen]

As mentioned(later in thread..HA) defer to the pros...
...have ALWAYS had Instaprints molded (with really good Bootfitters/Pedorthists) in the UNWEIGHTED.

$.01

Interesting. I have actually never seen a bootfitter in Europe mold a footbed unweighted.

and if you try on a new boot (or new liner, in this boot) how is it? I'm guessing that the liner is packed out and you are moving around a bit. Maybe a "C" pad around the pressure point?

plus what greg said too.

Tried on a couple off other boots and all were tight in the ankle bone or navicular.

Do not have access to a c pad but will see if I can find one.

This is the ankle bone (medial maleolus) or navicular (bony area below and slightly forward of the maleolus)? Both areas are punchable, assuming you just want to alleviate the pain. You can also relieve pressure by building a more supportive footbed (less weight while casting it) but the amount of correction people can stand and still function well mechanically (i.e. ski) varies a lot. I would say if you don't wear corrective orthotics in your everyday footwear, err on the side of less correction and just punch the shell.

It’s the ankle bone. My bootfitter has actually already worked on the liner (thinned it out) on the navicular. Helped there but not in the ankle.

Thanks to all of you!

[mntlion]

post on the montana thread?

[gregL]

I have actually never seen a bootfitter in Europe mold a footbed unweighted.

Unweighted was common 10-15 years ago, or if you went to a Superfeet shop. Lots of podiatrists still do it. These days almost everyone in ski shops is using either a Sidas or Masterfit (Instaprint) vacuum machine, and most fitters prefer to mold weighted unless the foot/ankle is very unstable - then we still mold semi-weighted (customer seated, you push their foot into the molding pad while they hold the ankle in a static position).

It’s the ankle bone. My bootfitter has actually already worked on the liner (thinned it out) on the navicular. Helped there but not in the ankle.

Punch it. You can't expect the ankle contour the boot manufacturer put in the shell/liner based on a computer model to match the location of yours.

[mntlion]

Interesting. I have actually never seen a bootfitter in Europe mold a footbed unweighted.


Tried on a couple off other boots and all were tight in the ankle bone or navicular.

Do not have access to a c pad but will see if I can find one.



It’s the ankle bone. My bootfitter has actually already worked on the liner (thinned it out) on the navicular. Helped there but not in the ankle.

Thanks to all of you!

so is this a constant pressure, always the same, always on? (not enough room = stretch liner or shell)

or more of a on/off, knocking thing? (too much room, fill up room, and stabilize foot. maybe more supportive footbed, maybe C pad)

[gregL]

Punch it. You can't expect the ankle contour the boot manufacturer put in the shell/liner based on a computer model to match the location of yours.

PS Not every bootfitter is good at locating maleous punch zones. I like to put the liner on the foot, have them kick back so they are all the way back in the heel pocket, then put my finger on the pain point and mark the outside of the liner with a Sharpie. You ankle shape is radial, so the actual point to punch may be slightly forward of the spot you mark. It's hard to see the spot with the liner in the shell, but with that many days on the boot you usually have a mark on the liner from the cuff pivot and you can measure from the center of that to the punch zone.

[gregL]

PPS I usually punch the shell/cuff first (commonly the maleolus is where they overlap), then put the liner back in and punch again to shape the foam. Normally use the large solid silver ball you get with a Keyser press, unless the maleolus is abnormally pointy or blunt.

[Tobsen]

so is this a constant pressure, always the same, always on? (not enough room = stretch liner or shell)

or more of a on/off, knocking thing? (too much room, fill up room, and stabilize foot. maybe more supportive footbed, maybe C pad)

It's not moving much, however, it is definitely more noticeable while traversing or when i put the skis hard on edge. In powder for example, I dont notice it at all.

PS Not every bootfitter is good at locating maleous punch zones. I like to put the liner on the foot, have them kick back so they are all the way back in the heel pocket, then put my finger on the pain point and mark the outside of the liner with a Sharpie. You ankle shape is radial, so the actual point to punch may be slightly forward of the spot you mark. It's hard to see the spot with the liner in the shell, but with that many days on the boot you usually have a mark on the liner from the cuff pivot and you can measure from the center of that to the punch zone.

I will definitely take note how the bootfitter does it!!

Great insights from both of you, appreciate it a lot!

[EWG]

Ok, I'll throw this out here for some third party thoughts:

I'm in new boots this year. Salomon s/max 130, non carbon. 26.5. My left foot is the larger one, probably a bit over a 10.5, so it's a small boot for that foot. Right foot is a bit over 9.5 so need the 26.5 to make the right foot work, so I punch the left boot, etc.

Left foot obviously very tight. Had it customized and had the toe box punched. After 7 or so days it was still tight so went back in, they (I think) increased the ramp inside? to pull the toe back from the front and widened the front. It worked, went on a 5 day trip and wore them everyday - little left foot pain in the toes due to tightness but was able to ski all day. I did notice that it felt like my left heel was pushing up against the top of the heel pocket in the boot, so I'd keep pushing it down into the ground and back into the shell. But after a few runs it was ok.

At about 20 days the boots were pretty good, and there happened to be a day where I chased my 18 year old around the mountain jumping off stuff, skiing really hard, slamming into things, etc. I am in the habit of releasing the lower ankle buckle on the left boot at lifts for comfort and buckling it back up at the top. Long story, but I spent most of the day charging around with it unbuckled by mistake because I am an idiot. Ended up with a sore spot on the outside/back of my left heel, right at the top of the part that sticks out the most. I think it was because it wasn't locked in place and I kept slamming it against the top of the heel cup.

In any case, it's very painful now. I'm around 35 days in the boot at this point and this weekend, as an example, I skied two days - the first day was a little sore but fine really, but the second day it was almost too painful to ski on. Tylenol and sucking up pain so bad it was making me sweat and after about an hour and a half I could manage it, but it was not a fun day. It did get better as the day went on - not sure if it's because of the heel getting numb or the heel pocket packing in (my theory is a little of both.) It feels very similar to an electric shock on every bump, every mistake, and even on things like standing on it at chair unloading. Extraordinarily painful.

To touch the heel when not in a boot, like now, is not very painful, however it is fairly numb, and it gets better after a couple days not in ski boots if I wear loose shoes.

So, the questions:

What the hell? Anybody experience this before and know what I'm dealing with?

Advice on boot mods? I am planning on going back to the bootfitter, but I'm afraid this is just a nasty heel bruise or something and I shouldn't modify the boot, and if I have them open up the heel cup it'll just loosen up the foot hold and the boots will be sloppy forever.

Any other great ideas? When it hurts it's pretty much unskiable, and it's worse on the second/third etc day, and I'm supposed to be on snow many days in a row a few weeks from now and don't want this to ruin it. Can't imagine doing that the way it feel now.

Finally, no I haven't tried my old boots. I guess I could try that saturday.

[swissiphic]

Had a similar experience back in the early 90's skiing in ill fitting double leather tele boots. The heel cup wasn't formed enough to wrap my heel and the upper part of left heel bone area soft tissue was damaged due to chronic, repeated bashes through the innerboot into the firmer, kinda hard leather outer boot "shell" leather. I ignored the initial pain, kept skiing through it, compounding the damage. The end result was a severely inflamed, swollen injury that was diagnosed as bursitis. I missed the rest of the ski season, could not wear any regular foot wear at all for about a half a year. Flip flops and house slippers only. Any pressure in that area from regular shoes would cause sharp, shooting, tooth cavity like lightning strikes of pain agony.

Moving forward, that upper left heal area remains to be a very sensitive spot for boot fit...Every boot i've owned since has required both careful punching of shell to form a correctly shaped nook for my heel and constant little micro tweaks to footbeds and liners must be made to account for liner packing out progression throughout ski seasons to keep fit of foot in boot 'just right'.

[mntlion]

`1) ask your boot fitter
2) my guess (can't see your foot or boot) is to grind a small pocket just for the ouch spot in the shell. Just to give that spot some room without the rest of the foot moving around
3) if you want to try this yourself you need a small head on a dremel or foredom tool.
mark your foot ouch point with lipstick
remove liner and add your footbed and any heel lifts into the bootboard
move your foot into the boot, WITHOUT smudging the lipstick
move your foot directly back into the boot shell, until it hits the back of the boot, and hit the outside of the shell, so the lipstick transfers to the shell
grind a 2mm deep pocket for this ouch point that is 2mm higher than the mark (to make up for the liner thickness)

ski it and see and re-grind as needed, but smaller is better. Best to grind twice and NOT go too far.

[XXX-er]

Originally Posted by east or bust View Post

" How does the collective go about punching the liners? I see that intuition sells a big metal S thing for $35... no thanks. Is best common practice to just grab something slender and blunt and apply pressure? "

" You don't punch the liners if you can help it, they are only 3-4mm thick and you want to retain some padding. You can stretch the liners with a broom handle and light heat, but chances are you need a small punch at the fifth met area so the liner has somewhere to go . "

I seen Crystal at Intuition (the fitter before Tom) use that back knobber thing, she would use it by hanging it off her shoulder while standing, spot heat the liner and rub the area she wanted to stretch once only

I think the butt end of a screwdriver or a broom handle would work just as well

[Adrider83]

Need help. Bought Lange RS130 and some nice footbeds last March. No issues for nearly a year. Past several weeks, absolutely killing the outside ankle bone on one boot. Local shop removed some material from boot. Still hurts. Mainly when I flex forward, and kinda the back part of the bone, but in general just the whole thing. Also, don’t really have an pain in my touring boots. Tried on my old race boots...also had the pain, so I’m guessing the ankle is just banged up now? Would some padding help? What can I do? Really ruining the fun Thanks

[El Kanone]

Need help. Bought Lange RS130 and some nice footbeds last March. No issues for nearly a year. Past several weeks, absolutely killing the outside ankle bone on one boot. Local shop removed some material from boot. Still hurts. Mainly when I flex forward, and kinda the back part of the bone, but in general just the whole thing. Also, don’t really have an pain in my touring boots. Tried on my old race boots...also had the pain, so I’m guessing the ankle is just banged up now? Would some padding help? What can I do? Really ruining the fun Thanks

I’m no expert but the best thing I ever experienced for boot pain is intuition liners.

[mntlion]

Need help. Bought Lange RS130 and some nice footbeds last March. No issues for nearly a year. Past several weeks, absolutely killing the outside ankle bone on one boot. Local shop removed some material from boot. Still hurts. Mainly when I flex forward, and kinda the back part of the bone, but in general just the whole thing. Also, don’t really have an pain in my touring boots. Tried on my old race boots...also had the pain, so I’m guessing the ankle is just banged up now? Would some padding help? What can I do? Really ruining the fun Thanks

how many days on teh boots?

if 100+ the liner might just be packed out and allowing the foot to move a bit.

better with thicker socks (to allow less moving/banging?

I would add some padding to the area around the sore bit (a donut of padding) and see if that helps

[mr_pretzel]

Is your ankel bone touching the shell when inside the boot without the liner?

Put your footbeds in the boot no liner and try to line up your foot in the middle for to aft and side to side. If touching, punch, if not you might need a new liner.

[Sledzski]

With spring coming, looking to get back out on my touring setup (been a few seasons). I have 1st or 2nd gen MTN Labs with RAD 2.0 on a couple sets of sticks.

Narrow foot, lv heel with high instep. I like a small bit of heel lift due limited ankle flex. The boots were not ideal when I bought them but limited access to models while I was living in boston. Best of the bunch. 16-19mm Shell fit in 28.5. 27.5 is a no go. Alpine boot is a Mach1 LV with several punches and a large amount of liner mod for instep (heat and material removal), I still have to unbuckle but fit/ski really well (28.5 with a race fit ie 10 mm shell).

Some hot spots up front but will punch forefoot to accommodate.

Main issue is heel pocket being vague, both skiing and touring.

Better with custom foot beds (Matt Sheets in Jackson). New last season.

Better with more lift but that causes instep issue.

Better with thicker sock but that causes instep and forefoot issue.

Better with upper buckle tighter while skiing but then cold feet.

Better with lower buckle engaged while touring but then forefoot issue.

Foam helps (along with anti friction tape on heel) but not perfect. Using L-Pads and 3M tape.

Anyone ever used material (tape or other) to “mold” the heel pocket? Bad idea? Will I die? Suggestions on material?

Should I keep fiddling with foam/lift and maybe spot heat molding liner instep more?

Gear swap these on the cheap and move on? Recs?


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[mntlion]

1) "L" or "C" pads around heel?

2) add some foam to the tongue flex point to help drive the heel down and back. Like what a 3rd buckle on a FT boot does.

3) Eliminator tongue pad

4) add, or move, a buckle to over the flex point of the boot. to be like a full tilt/kyrpton. I did this for a few salomon athlets when the boots came out.

[Sledzski]

1) L on heel/ankle bones.

2) above or below flex point or overlapping?

3) Worried this will change lean but will test with beer coozy.

4) I have seen this mod. Do you prefer full tilt or scarpa buckle for this?

Thank you sir.


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[Adrider83]

how many days on teh boots?

if 100+ the liner might just be packed out and allowing the foot to move a bit.

better with thicker socks (to allow less moving/banging?

I would add some padding to the area around the sore bit (a donut of padding) and see if that helps

Just got some padding. Will try. I have like 60ish days on them. No issues until maybe three weeks ago...started to creep up and get worse and worse.

The more I think, the more guessing it’s liner, since all the efforts by the shop to remove material have not really improved the pain.

[mntlion]

Just got some padding. Will try. I have like 60ish days on them. No issues until maybe three weeks ago...started to creep up and get worse and worse.

The more I think, the more guessing it’s liner, since all the efforts by the shop to remove material have not really improved the pain.

ya, I would go liner

what is the shell fit like? if more then 15mm, you really should go a size down

[Adrider83]

how many days on teh boots?

if 100+ the liner might just be packed out and allowing the foot to move a bit.

better with thicker socks (to allow less moving/banging?

I would add some padding to the area around the sore bit (a donut of padding) and see if that helps

Wanted to thank everyone for their input and help, and giver everyone an update. I had the right foot liner in the left boot shell, and the left foot liner in the right boot shell!!! So silly of me. Everyone in the shop had a good laugh. The second the switch them back, my boots felt great again (duh!). Thanks again for all your help!

[mntlion]

Wanted to thank everyone for their input and help, and giver everyone an update. I had the right foot liner in the left boot shell, and the left foot liner in the right boot shell!!! So silly of me. Everyone in the shop had a good laugh. The second the switch them back, my boots felt great again (duh!). Thanks again for all your help!

my first post, point #7.

its not just for JONGS.


(and if the boots where skiable that way, they might be on the big side?)

[Boissal]

1 month bump and a question to those of you who've done liner mods: I picked up some thin high density foam squares to re-pad my liner around the maleola. It packed faster than I expected and got really thin over the ankle bone which is now getting angry from being in close contact with the shell. My thought is to cut a doughnut of foam and glue it on the outside of the liner where the bone protrudes to create a bit of a buffer.
Question: what is the best glue to attach foam to liners? I'm going to first use sticky velcro on both liner and foam to dial in the spot but I'll want a more permanent solution if the fit is right.