Maggot snowmobile thread

[Lomax]

Sorry about the lag. Got tied up in some bike stuff.

This is on a 2010 Arctic Cat M8, 153 tunnel. I used a big UHMW block I bought off ebay for 40 bucks, Some 1.5" angle aluminum from the hardware store, some freebie old rental snowboard bindings from a local shop, and some ghetto rental ratchets. I had to track down some superlong ladder straps that were rubberized but I needed them to fit skis and a snowboard. The rails I got from a sled rack company called vortech. I just shortened and redrilled them.

Overview:




But anyway. That was just shy of a hundred bucks. Used for a while now and I have zero need for a 500 dollar rack that still doesn't do the things I want. The tinymopros and CFRs are good ready made setups but I'd still be changing things on them to get the tunnel mounted stuff setup for riding out in fresh snow.

very nice system!
what kind of foot boards are those?

[kidwoo]

These guys

https://www.bmfabrications.com/Products.html

After running those for a year they're pretty much a given on any sled I buy from here on out. So damn good. You can ride all day without seeing the hood of your sled and never have to kick your boards once. They're so stiff it actually makes popping over on a quick sidehill much easier too. I'm sure the skinz and some of the others are just as good but these are cheaper.

[LSeed]

Getting on the sled train this year. Read almost all of this thread so far made it to page 50 but during it also came accros this deal on Kijiji
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-snowmobile/ca...800/1025903775 seems like pretty fair price no. 1200miles on body and 200kms on new motor?

[Mannix]

Getting on the sled train this year. Read almost all of this thread so far made it to page 50 but during it also came accros this deal on Kijiji
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-snowmobile/ca...800/1025903775 seems like pretty fair price no. 1200miles on body and 200kms on new motor?

I'd personally hold out for something a little more stock. SLP pipe & can = loud. Not sure what a Revolt motor is, but why'd the first one only last 1200 miles?

Quite possibly not a bad sled, but $5500 should get you a decent stock something with a long track. I'm always leery of modified anythings - not necessarily BAD, if that's what you're after, but stock TENDS to be more reliable, and a stock (Pro/Summit/M8) with a long track (155+) will cover most things skiing - and should be easy to come by at $5500.

.02c


Iain

[kidwoo]

Not sure what a Revolt motor is, but why'd the first one only last 1200 miles?

I think 'revolt' is an auto-corrected 'rebuilt'. Find out if it was rebuilt because it blew a piston or was rebuilt because the owner just wanted the stock pistons out of there. 1200 miles makes me think it was because he had to. But that phase of dragon 800 motors are kind of notorious for blowing up pistons.

For that money and era I'd look for an m8. For even cheaper though, I'd also look for a 2007-2009 polaris 700.

[powder11]

I can personally vouch for this sled. Owner is a pro photog who used it just to get out and set up shots. People goving him shit about it being a back up sled since the miles are so low. I dont know crap about cats, but Kidwoo can probably elaborate. Probably willing to dicker on price as everyone around here is jonesing to get on a new XM!

http://whistler.craigslist.ca/snw/4666419659.html

[LSeed]

^^That looks like a pretty good deal. the 1 year warranty would be real nice though engine is sort of high clicks I guess. Seems like a lot of sleds on for a fairly good price there in the Pemby area. More so then on Calgary Kijiji anyways.

[powder11]

Pretty low for a 4 yr old sled. I put 2500k on an XM last season alone. Like I said, Kidwoo can probably attest to it going a lot farther than that. Everyone around here is jumping on the XM bandwagon, so a glut of 3-5 yr old sleds on the mkt for cheap... esp anything 146ish. Nobody wants that anymore!

[LSeed]

Hmmm, well it is the time to pounce. Pemberton is just much faro to go just to get a sled haha, but if the price was right! Thanks again for that link I msged him to see whats up.

[kidwoo]

Here's my annual annoying used sled speech.....

For the 4-6 grand range, right now I honestly think the m8s are your best bet. They've got the most reliable engines of that time period of the big three (yamaha 4 strokes don't count unless you really want to hate learning how to sled), and they've got a handling characteristic that is a lot easier to learn on. Skidoo and (next year at least) polaris have newer motors in their sleds. Cat is still using the same one. That should tell you something. The IQ polaris sleds handle really similarly but have fuck all for motor reliability in the 800s. The 700s are better. I'd honestly buy a 4k skidoo rev from 2004-2006 before I'd buy anything xp from skidoo. They're harder to learn on in anything but bottomless snow and each year had clutch or motor issues up until 2010. The handling thing is preference though. Watch 20 dudes from whistler jump on my case now

The issues with that era of arctic cat are are really just one thing: The bearing that the drive shaft runs on from the gearbox. You have to replace this if it hasn't been done already. You'll see this mentioned in a lot of the ads for these ('bearing updated' etc). Everything will work fine with the stock bearing but if it's got 1k miles on it, I'd bet my left nut that the bearing is in pieces when you pull it out. Those pieces fall into a gear transfer box. Not a biggie but you really should do it. There are some minor cheap or free things you should do to them but the motors last. FWIW, I'm not a fan of these things just because I own one, I did mah readin before I bought it and all the reasons I bought it are what I've listed......

My personal 'do not buy' list:

2005-2006 polaris anything. I owned one. Total pieces of shit. Fucked up motor that they abandoned really quickly for a reason.
2007-2008 skidoo, new motor in 2007 that popped, new chassis in 2008, figuring things out
2007-2012 polaris 800, 600 or 700 okay though (I still have a 2011 polaris 600 that's fine)
<2008 arctic cat. Motors were fine but so much else wasn't
2012 arctic cat, new chassis, and all kinds of fucked up everything

My personal 'money years' for sleds

2006 skidoo revs (or earlier if pistons were changed)
2009-2011 arctic cat
2007-2012 polaris 700 or 600s

Or ANY of the brand spankin new ones........but that's a different payscale.

[LSeed]

Thanks dude, thats a big help. funny how on all your don't buys you see so many of them for sale.

[kidwoo]

There's a reason for the 2005-2006 polaris

Everything else on that list, you can find examples that have been running fine for years with happy owners, my gripes are more of a statistical thing from seeing friends' sleds and reading up on them and seeing trends. Plus personal handling preferences.

But dear god, just do not buy those years of polaris.......whatever you do. THAT part is absolutely universal.

[Mannix]

Is this when I start babbling about utility sleds?

On the even cheaper side, I have a personal affinity for the 2003 ZX Summit 700. Motors last forEVER, and while the ZX is a comparative pile of crap vs today's sleds, my ZX (first sled I bought, still around) was really pretty bomber. I put a 156" track on it, and a whole bunch of fuel and oil.

No, it is not an 800. No, it does not work (nearly) as well in deep snow.

They're cheap & reliable. Going rate for ZX 700s around here is ~$1500-2k.

An 06 Rev is a better sled in every way. Better chassis, wider track, easier to ride, better better better - but also more $$$. If $2k is all one can afford, the ZX 700 is awesome. IMHO, avoid 800s of that era, if-not-when as far as assploding. New top ends every 1500mi seems to prevent that, but....eh. The 800 in Skidoo from 99-06ish is kinda a pile. My ZX is pushing 6k miles on it - had 3k when I bought it - has plenty of compression, starts easily, shrug, I really like that sled.

THAT SAID, I rode it a bit last season - skiing buddy and I were just out riding, he got it stuck. Rode my XM over, got on, holy shit this thing SUCKS. It was not an enormously deep day, but deepish. The new stuff reduces skill requirements to pretty much nothing - I knew the XM was _better_, but yow - I got it out of the hole it was in, rode it back over there and around, got it back to him. I could DO it, sure, but it took every bit of sledding skill I had to do it (admittedly, not much). Got back on XM, uhhh, yeah. Pretty much zero effort on the XM. The new stuff IS better. Lots better.

I'll probably get flamed for this one, but another possibly good option for the mechanically inclined is the 05-07 Summit RT1000.

I know, I know, motors grenade left and right.....

True, it seems, but it ALSO seems like it is not the MOTOR'S fault. The RT1k had a goofy fuel system, was super sensitive to grounds, complicated exhaust valves, roughly sixty automotive style relays, it was a complicated, heavy pig of a sled.

They're _awesome_ access sleds, though. I got one several years ago on the cheap - insurance total, front cooler had cracked. I bypassed the front cooler, put it back together with the remaining two coolers. Mine was an 05; in 06 they eliminated the rear cooler and halved the tunnel cooler, so I figured I could get away with it. Figured correctly - scratchers needed, put a temp gauge out of a MXZX 1000, replaced the low pressure fuel pump, fixed grounds, made sure relays were happy, addressed the filtration issue, clutched it right, derp, forget what else - oh, added a thermostat out of an XP, uhhh, I did a BUNCH of cheap, preventative stuff to that sled.

I rode it for two years, sold it to a guy in Summit County - last I heard, it was doing fine. I think it had 2600mi on it when I sold it, I bought it with...1200? forget. I put a bunch of miles on it.

Big motor, long track (mine was a 162), heavy, sucked to sidehill on firm snow (my new Skandic is better, not even kidding), but was ENORMOUSLY fun in deep snow, and a freaking monster for 2-up. I actually really liked that sled as an access tool - and there's nothing really wrong with the MOTOR, it is all the stuff that keeps the motor happy that effs up - which in turn, takes the motor out. Fix that stuff (read Dootalk or pm me, I can regurgitate most of it), they're really pretty reliable - and unreal uphill transport devices.

I'd not personally recommend spending Real Money on one. I think I sold mine for $1800. I think I had about $2500 into it. $700 for two seasons (three? forget), I'll take it - plus, a skier bought it, so good. If you've got $6k, or $4k, don't buy an RT. If you're in the $2k tax bracket, and you see one...AND you're mechanically inclined, AND you read the volumes of "how to keep your 1k alive," AND you're not afraid of it, it is a potentially good option. The 162 has a long tunnel - you can make a rack that puts the skis on top of the tunnel - no running board wasted.

They're a bit scary, but if they don't go lean/ingest half a belt, the motor itself is a durable lump, and holy shit they make torque.

.02c


Iain

[Shadam]

and now its my turn ...

everything said above is the facts !!!

its funny how 800 rev's sell for more than the rt1000.
the rev is a great starter sled. it will doo everything you want and they are (relitively) easy to work on. I luv my rt1000. its still running with 11,000 miles on sled and over 9,000miles on motor. but that is unheard of for almost any 2stroke.

a good 800 rev sells for about $4g and is my recomemdation. when skidoo moved away from the rev the sleds got lighter and more fragile. xp's were not built to last, they were built to be first. but they sure had issues when they first came out. I'm considering upgrading to a 860 bigbore xp with a buncha mods. its deff not a good buy for a newbie, but I'd like to think I know my doo's.

a buncha guys I know are on rev's and we have very little issues. most of us are snowboarders, and 800's doo great for tandum riding.

there are guys around here that won't ride with anyone one on older sleds, but they let me tag along on my old rt1000. the reason is they are sick of towing home cats and poo's. and I agree. the wrong sled will turn you off sledding, the right sled will change your life.
if you buy anything with a track shorter than 150 wotever, punch yourself in the throat! seriously. we want to ride powder not ice ...

if your on a budget, a ZX doo is not a bad sled.

[pano-dude]

If you dont mind having no reverse the m7 is pound for pound the best most reliable sled out there. They have better diamond drive bearings than the m8, weigh less and have only 10hp less until the 2010 ho m8 came out

[LSeed]

Thanks again guys more things to look into.
What are some good snowmobile forms to look into as well. Mannix you mentioned doo talk? Be nice to read up on some more stuff I should be getting to know about them.

[LSeed]

^^also, whats people opinions on the Pre-08 revs in an 800. seems like everyone was constantly talking about grenading before then and then it sort of died down after. Obviously engines still explode but mannix you mentioned they got a lot better? I've seen some Pre 08's for sale for a fair bit cheaper then what I'm looking at which would leave me a few extra grand in the bank to work on them/extra road trips if all goes well. Still plan to have some money aside but the more the merrier if I can still get the job done. I'm sure i'll wack into a tree or six with my luck so we'll see.

[Mannix]

www.dootalk.com
www.snowest.com
www.hardcoresledder.com

All three are pretty good; I'm sure there's a Polaris-centric forum, there's also (AFAIK) arcticchat.com.

The 800R came out around 08, Doo 800 reliability got WAY better. Nutshell - skidoo 800cc pistons need replacing every 1500-2000miles on the earlier motors. Anything more, piston skirts are threatening to break off.

The 07 XRS Summit is a mixed bag - not sure on specifics, but there were engine issues with that sled, someone will likely chime in. Seems to me that the 07 issues were severe enough that it has probably already happened to all of them.

Top ends (pistons/wristpin/rings/bearings) are <$500 and pretty easy to change.

I come from a car background - I've been screwing around with cars for ~20 years, more seriously than a lot of people. When I got into sleds, I was _shocked_ at the tolerance snowmobilers seem to have wrt motors exploding. WTF? Really? Weird.

That said, an 06 Rev 800 puts out ~150hp. Give or take. HP per cc is absurd on sleds - that's like a 300hp VW Rabbit. Or Honda Civic. Sure, two strokes make more power per cc than four, but still - HUGE specific output. They're pretty high strung out of the box.

A well taken care of 800cc Doo motor (I only really know skidoo) SHOULD be ok for 4k miles, give or take, if pistons were replaced proactively. Interestingly, the 99-05ish 800s did not suffer the same failure rate in the flatlands - no real surprise, you can't load a sled on a lake like you can in two feet of snow on a 30d slope.

That said, they're ALL a crapshoot.

600 SDI motors (skidoo, 05-06-07ish, injected) are considered immortal. The 700 - up to 03, unfortunately - is also virtually indestructible. I'm the minority, but depending on where you are, what your access is like, I'd personally not discount 600s.

A 600 would ABSOLUTELY work in Colorado, where we ski. Sounds like BC and PNW, they have steeper, more demanding up-roads, maybe not, dunno. I DO know my 700 had enough power. A 600 only makes a little (10hp) less. A Rev chassis is WORLDS more efficient than the ZX. We got around Just Fine on a 700cc ZX for several seasons. Sure, it got easier with modern chassis and more power, but it can be done. IMHO, a 600cc Rev chassis Summit is a good chunk more capable than a 700cc ZX.

Where are you? That could play into it - not only terrain, but dealer - a good friend of mine is a mechanic at a local Skidoo shop - no brainer for me. A good dealer is pretty critical, these piles of crap DO break, wear out, cause problems.

Another fun tidbit - you pretty much NEED two sleds. Sure, plenty of people go out on just one, take turns skiing, or two on the sled, one on a rope, etc etc etc. You kinda really don't want to SKI alone, if in interesting terrain (duh), and if (when) the stupid thing breaks/gets stuck/finds the bottom of that creekbed, you need to be able to get out. Bear that in mind, find local people who are doing it, etc.

I'm with kidwoo:

"2006 skidoo revs (or earlier if pistons were changed)"

and whoever rec'd the M7 - virtually everyone I know who had one of those liked it. I've not personally heard much good about Polaris anythings - not saying they're bad, but I can't keep track of which ones to avoid, the 900s sucked, this motor popped, that motor popped, uhhhh what? Dunno. Again, dealer. Good Polaris dealer? Probably good things to be had. Actually, my mechanic friend liked the late 90s-early 2000s RMKs, he thought those were OK (in 2006). Those are old-tech trailing arm boats, though. I'd REALLY try to get into a modern chassis (04+ in Skidoo).

My mechanic friend told me not to ride a Rev til I thought I could afford one. He was right. The new stuff is WAY better, kinda akin to straight skis in deep snow vs today's skis.

It is kinda a pain to sort it all out at first; I was lucky, mechanic friend narrowed it down for me. It really depends on your area, too, though - here in CO, there's plenty of skiing available off established roads - pretty much ANYTHING can work here. If you DON'T have established roads to work with, the "minimum sled requirement" goes up in a BIG way. There's stuff we ski now that would have been virtually impossible on my first pair of sleds (03 ZX/99 Summit 670x).

Where are you?



Iain

[LSeed]

I'll be based out of Golden BC, loads of logging roads in the area for access but I don't want to limit myself to just that. Mechanically I have little experience but can usually pick up basic things fairly quickly. If my sled is out of action for 2 weeks not the end of the world as I don't work in the winter so will have plenty of time to work on it and I can still rip Kicking Horse and ski tour rogers pass.
I have a few buddies in the area with sleds. Some with experience some new to the game like me. One plus side is I know I'm capable of skinning 30kms out of somewhere if everything goes to fucking hell though I really really really don't want to do that.

Looking to sled ski, lap terrain, tandem up for laps. If the terrain dictates no problems tossing on skins and doing quick laps as well. Really haven't gotten out yet on a sled to much but i can see there are lots of logging roads that get you close but if you could get up a drainage(average 20-30 degrees but quite possibly no trail broken) You would access much more. Total jong here really as to what is even possible on a sled especially a beginner

Is 1000ccs a terrible idea for a first sled. Just saying because I have seen a few arctic cat m1000s for a decent price but really kind of wrote them off at least till I have a few years under my belt. My price range is sitting around 4000-6000dollars. Currently working everyday and have an unknown amount of paychecks coming in from my old summer job(damn government and being completely unorganized) If my current job goes till mid December instead of November I could probably even bump that number up higher but don't see the need to spend extra cash If Its not really warranted.

[Mannix]

I really don't think that there's such thing as "too much" sled for what we're doing. No idea if the m1000s are any good - a guy here had one, afaik, he liked it.

If a sled can hook up, a 1000 will feel AWFULLY fast at first - the first time I rode an etec 800, it was freaking scary on hardpacked/groomed roads - it seemed FAST.

so...don't pin it.

Once in soft snow, though, shrug, yeah, it was fine. My Skidoo 1000 was a really good sled. They're different than, say, sportbikes or dirtbikes - putting a complete gaper on a one liter sportbike or open-class dirtbike is probably a bad idea. Sleds....eh, they're different enough that the only thing you'd learn faster being on a low-powered sled is how to dig it out. A 600cc sled will get you into just about as much trouble on an established trail from a power standpoint as an equivalent 800. They're really not that much _slower_. Torque and power, the 800 is more capable, but a 600cc sled is still fast - 600s do ~11-13s quarter miles on flat ground/sea level. That's faster than most cars.

550 fan sleds, uhh, no. They're awful. I rode a 550 fan Skidoo Freestyle a couple of years ago. It was a TON of fun, little and "light" and fun...in a dinghy sort of way. tee hee, let's go over here. Rode it off the side of a groomed trail, opened the throttle to get skis light. ummmm, what the hell? nothing. Throttle might as well have had "volume" written on it, it got a little louder, but that was it. They have their place, but...ugh. I'd not want to try to ski off one. A 550 fan makes about 60hp ("fan" meaning it is aircooled and has a big fan to blow air over the cylinders for cooling, vs coolant/"radiators"). A 600cc carbed sled makes 100-105, fuel injected about 120, 800s up to ~160.

On the "light" side of things - a lot of people are under the impression that a 600 is considerably lighter than an 800. Nope. In skidoo world, it is about four pounds - 600 Summit vs 800 Summit, the whole sled. The motors are the same castings, bore and stroke differ. A 600 does _feel_ lighter, but actual static weight is really not that different. My 1000 (and possibly Cat's) WAS quite a bit heavier - the Skidoo 1000 is a completely different motor, larger case, cylinders, etc. The MOTOR is ~20# heavier, then the larger snowmobile they PUT the motor in is heavier, too. A 600 really is not "lighter" than an 800 - a smidge, but not a significant amount. An 800 (or more powerful sled, all else equal) will likely go farther up the hill before it gets stuck and/or dig a deeper hole - when the sled stops going forward, the track keeps spinning and digging all the snow out from under it. "Smaller sleds are easier to dig out" holds some water; they just don't get stuck AS badly. I guess. Dunno. I'd buy the best combination of power and reliability I could afford; I really don't think that a 1000 would be "too much," especially from a skiing standpoint.

If you can skin 30km, you probably have seen what happens to logging roads over the winter - they get blown in. That makes them sometimes a pain in the ass, if they're crossing a hill.

Sleds will go up some pretty ridiculous stuff, and once there's a nice road put in, you can tandem sleds up some surprisingly steep things. Towing is stupid. Don't spin the track on the up-road, especially on the steep bits. Take time to learn how to ride it - they're bizarre contraptions at first. Sled assisted skiing is a fun game, but not for everyone. I'd think $4-6k is a great budget, it'll certainly get you started - I spent $3400 and $1800 on my first pair, used them for 3-4 seasons before I decided that it was worth throwing $$$ at.


Iain

[danadog]

New sled Jong here,
This spring I picked up a cabin at the bottom Rabbit Ears and then the next week came across a deal on a 2013 Proclimb 800 with 3.1 miles on it that I could not pass on. Super stoked as I can access Rabbit Ears and Baker mountain right from the cabin. For the first time in over 20 years I am not buying a season pass and plan on just accessing the back county skiing from the cabin.
Colorado mags hit me up if you are headed to Rabbit Ears / Buff Pass.

[chiller]

How well does "squirel" tandem riding work?

[adrenalated]

^^^There was a good post on that awhile back in another thread that I searched and found.

1. Canuck- Riding with one person on each side of the tunnel. 1 person controls brakes, one person controls throttle.

2. B%$@- passenger rides behind and holds on to the driver

3. Squirrel- Passenger sits in front of the driver

4. Clown car- combination squirrel/canuck. One person rides on each side of the tunnel and one person sits holding onto the handlebar strap

Squirrel is the preferred position (assume it!) to ride in fresh snow. You have full control of the sled, you can stand up, and you can move your feet to each side of the tunnel to turn in fresh snow. B@#$% is just plain scary to be the passenger. I wish I had some good pictures of clown car, b/c it is really entertaining to watch.

IME Canuck is best 90% of the time, squirrel works if the squirrel doesn't have a pack on (or only a very small one) and sucks at riding too much to help you steer the sled in soft snow. Two good riders = Canuck. Riding squirrel isn't very comfortable...

[Mannix]

What he said. Squirrel is only helpful if the other person is SMALL, has no pack & is utterly useless at Canadian. When it works, it works well, but...ehhh.

Canuck/Canadian can actually be really fun in deep snow with a good or obedient passenger.

Clowncar is hilarious sometimes. We put four on the Skandic sometimes, two sitting, two standing. The Skandic has a real backseat, which makes it possible. On that thing, it is actually fairly drama free - but there's only so much lean available. Need more? Clown car empties.


Iain

[chiller]

Great! Thanks for the definitions. Will search first next time