Maggot snowmobile thread

[Ireallyliketoski2]

Can you snowmobilie up a resort if it's national forest land? I'm trying to justify the costs of a new sled and am thinking if I can go to Copper and just snowmobile up the resort while someone else rides it back to the base I wouldn't have to buy a lift ticket.

[Gerome]

I recommend the Ski Doo backcountry clown car

[Dside11-11]

Can you snowmobilie up a resort if it's national forest land? I'm trying to justify the costs of a new sled and am thinking if I can go to Copper and just snowmobile up the resort while someone else rides it back to the base I wouldn't have to buy a lift ticket.

Unless this is a joke, I am sorry, but that's the stupidest f-ing thing I have ever heard in my whole life ever at all.

Once the lifts close, however, game on.

[Dside11-11]

I recommend the Ski Doo backcountry clown car

Well I guess score one for the infamous 2007 clutches. Total score: 1

That said, just got the report on my 07 today. Just some routine maintenance and she good to go. Was expecting much worse. maybe just a little paranoid...

[VC]

Well I guess score one for the infamous 2007 clutches. Total score: 1

Now that's funny

[Z]

Rebuilt top end on it, didn't crack the bottom end. Some metal possibly
slipped into the bottom end, which would get in the bearings eventually and screw it up. Runs wicked strong right now.
Not sure what I'm going to do with it.

dibs....

[Blurred]

dibs....

$1500 just for you.

[Dside11-11]

So, Brett, tell me what led you to the King Cat while everyone's scrambling for M's. Is it the 900?

[Blurred]

So, Brett, tell me what led you to the King Cat while everyone's scrambling for M's. Is it the 900?

Well Robbie.....

Got a deal I couldn't refuse.

After reading page after page of blown doo engines, it became clear to me that the King cat 900 engine is superior as far as reliability goes.
Warning- scary thread.
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50659

It's also clear that the rev chassis is superior over others....however, if you have the body weight, riser bar and Boss seat, it helps a bunch on the King. Sled I bough had the riser and seat, and I'm big enough to muscle it around.
So that became a non-issue.
Got this sled for a great price, and it only has 1200 miles on it, with one owner before me.
Sled is still under warranty, and has no loan. I paid cash.

Guess in the end, I've never ridden a sled I didn't like. But I never liked a sled that broke down on me.

Yeah, the doo's look cooler and handle better, but having a rep of grenading kind of turned me away after the ordeal with my sled last year. (you know the story)

Throw in that big engine and a 162" track? No brainer for me.

Let's hope it keeps snowing so we can get after it.

[Dside11-11]

Yeah, I have read that thread. Making me wish I had a Cat (M7 or M1) too. Like you, never ridden a sled I didn't like. Dont really have the experience to have a preference. I like the Doo's, but not worth having if you are outta commission for a month waiting on a back ordered engine or some other bullshit. That thread definitely made me wary of Ski Doo's and envious of the AC's. Especially in an AC town like CB. I think there are about 3 current model SkiDoo's here...

The 162 is a land yacht. Bit of getting used to at first.

Sick rig. Real sharp lookin' too! You know where I'll be. Couch available when it's time...

[ski_faster]

My new (to me) sled AC KC900 162"

And my Summit 670x


Sooo stoked to get out and BRAAAPPP!!

Bring them both to da ho. Remember it's all in the hips!

[Mannix]

Ski-doo's problems lie in the 800cc engines, for the most
part. A skidoo mechanic friend strongly warned against
anything 800cc - regardless of brand, but particularly ski-doo.

The 900-1000 sleds have bigger motors - entirely. They
seem to be reliable, according to MattBob, savior of my
snowmobile universe.

The 800 skidoos (and possibly others) have 600/700 bits
in the bottom with bigger pistons on top to get the
displacement - and that seems to be not such a good
combination.

Dunno. When I told Matt what I was doing - sled access
gaping - and I told him I had ~$5k to spend, he told me
to cut my budget in half and get a 98-99 670X or
2000-1-2-3 Summit 700. Wound up with an 03 Summit
700 with reverse (switch, bragh).

No idea if it is reliable yet. It starts and fills my house
with smoke, which is cool if the place smells like a dog's ass
and one-ah-mah-bitches is coming over. Beyond that,
the smoke has no redeeming qualities. We Shall See.
I do like the fact that reading the blown-up-800 thread,
one can find mention of 00-01-02-03 700s with bunches
of miles. That's a good thing.



Iain

[Seth0687]

nvm, blurred I sent you a pm.

[ACH]

All sleds break.
And, all the brands/models have their own strengths and weaknesses.
If I wasn't on Rev's already, I would be on a Polaris Dragon.

Having said that, talk of all doo 800's being unreliable while NOT UNJUSTIFIED is a bit overblown.
In the PNW, on any given day there are more Rev's then any other brand/model at the trailhead. They sold more of these sleds between 04/06 then the competition. When the M series and the new Poo Dragon platforms came out, the others started to win back market share. While I have read all the horror stories on Snowest.com, I also know many Rev owners who have never had a problem with their sleds (other then Clutch issues). Supposedly the O4 Rev suffered from a ring issue, however both of ours compression specs are within tolerance (given age and milage).

If you are buying a used sled, something with over 1000 miles on it, chances are good that if the rings were bad, or the crank was going grenade, etc. due to a manufacture defect, this would already have happened. Also keep in mind that break in on any sled if not properly performed will play a roll in it's longevity.

Having said all this, I hope I have not now jinxed myself, and end up having to get a tow out of the BC with a blown motor on one or both of our sleds...

[Mannix]

That's a good point - failures should really be expressed in a percentage of sales, and S-D did seemingly sell a LOT of 800 Rev/RevXP sleds.

My sled-guru told me that if I _had_ to have an 800 (or one came along at a too-good-to-be-true price), to replace the pistons at 1500 miles. Not 1501. 1500.

OTOH, he's been a S-D mechanic for 20+ years (and snowmobiles in general), and he seems to think that an inordinate number of the 800cc motors are failing. He also mentioned that the 800cc engines do just fine in the midwest & are more prone to failure out here/true mountain riding, where we're able to put big, extended loads on the sleds.

I just searched detroit.craigslist.org for ski-doo; found 6 800s - not one ad mentioned "new motor" or "replaced under warranty."

Doing the same for Denver....

....2005 Ski-Doo MXZ Renagde 800H.O., (2 matching RED/BLACK), HPG Piggy Back Shocks, 136"x16"x1"3/4, Team Roller 171 Miles On New Motor,Clutch, Gas Can, Shovel, HPS Lightweight Can, FELKER Set Up, 3,300 Miles, Mature Owner!! Excellent Condition!! 303-324-0091

2004 Ski-Doo MXZ Renegade 800 H.O., Yellow/Black, Blair Morgan Edition, Gas Can, Shovel, 136"x16"x1"3/4, 1,800 Miles 200 Miles on Factory Replaced New Motor, FELKER Set-Up, MBRP Lightweight Can, Mature Owner!! Excellent Condition!! 303-324-0091

2006 Ski Doo 800 with 151 track. X Package, reverse. Over $3000 in extras. Complete exhaust system, Boondocker Nitrous, cover, gas can, tank bag. The list goes on and on. Only 750 miles on sled, less on motor. 970-618-5123 Must sell quickly!


First 3 out of 5 in Denver.

Hrmph. Who knows. I wanted reliability over power; maybe I underestimate the importance of a motor, but I'd think that a well-ridden 700cc/144" track sled is going to get me to 95% of the places an 800cc/144" track sled will - 100cc is just not THAT much.

We Shall See.



Iain

[ACH]

I wonder how much altitude factors in to engine life?
Here the average altitude we ride at is about 4500 ft.

I also recently read a thread in another forum that discussed percentage of horse power loss relative to altitude gain.

"The aprox calculation is 3% HP loss per 1,000 feet, for a N/A engine.
so using 150 HP (~ stock HP).
.03 * 8.5 = 0.255 aka 25.5% HP loss
.255 * 150 = 38.25 aka 38.25 HP loss
150 - 38.25 = 111.75 aka 111.75 HP @ 8500 feet"

[Mannix]

Altitude in and of itself should not affect engine life; if anything, it'd arguably ENHANCE engine life, but that's splitting a fine hair.

Altitude is like a beer bong. If you have a short hose between the funnel and valve, you get less beer per bong.

If you have a long hose, more beer.

With altitude, the "funnel," or the top of the hose, never changes - so, the closer to sea level the engine is, the longer the hose is - when the valve opens, there's a longer column of air - a HEAVIER column of air - that pushes more air into the motor than the same motor at altitude.

1 bar is 14.7 PSI. So, at sea level, a one-square-inch area has 14.7 pounds of air, from the ground to the "funnel." The farther up you go, the shorter the "hose" gets.

That's why turbos are better in the mountains - the turbo just spins faster and crams more air into the motor. A turbo car will NOT be as fast at 8000 or 11000' as it is at sea level - it'll still gain positive pressure as you go down to sea level, but it does not lose as much going up as a naturally aspirated or supercharged car (a supercharged car still loses proportionally to altitude simply because the supercharger is spun by the motor, whereas a turbocharger just spins faster and faster until it runs out of efficiency or the wastegate opens).

So - naturally aspirated Skidoo 800 motor is getting less air per revolution up at Vail Pass than on the UP of Michigan. It is making less power, making less heat, it should actually be stressed LESS than the same motor at sea level.

According to my snowmobile confidant, the basic problem is that most manufacturers used the 600/700 crank and rods, then put a heavier/larger piston on - the piston needs to change direction 7850 times per minute, and that little bit of weight makes a difference. Take a tetherball - volleyball on a chain. Bash it that way, let it come around, bash it the other way. No big deal, really - pretty easy.

Now, attach Mr. T to the chain and try to change HIS direction. MUCH harder, right, fool? Right. Same concept, big exaggeration.

As far as why they seem (the 800s) to last longer down there than up here is simple - down there, "if you hold the throttle wide open for more than 3 or 4 seconds, you're going WAY too fast, unless you're on a lake, whereas up here, we can hold the throttle to the bar for long periods, trying to churn up a 35d slope through 2' of fresh snow."

Makes sense, and my delightfully unscientific sample of Detroit's 800cc offerings seems to lend it some credibility.

Blah blah blah. My 700 has a pretty stellar reputation for reliability. I like that. Might it break? Yup, I expect it to - but I've found 700s for sale with >10k miles on them, one with ~25k miles, on original motorbits. Mine has ~3500. Tis good. I hope. We'll see. I have rope.

Going down in altitude certainly brings more power - I race cars in the summer, and go to Topuka, KS for the national championship every year - my car is very notably different at sea level than it is here (1968 BMW 2002) - you actually have to be careful getting on the throttle midcorner, whereas here in Denver, mat it and hang on.

Blah blah blah.



Iain

[smoothious]

No idea if it is reliable yet. It starts and fills my house
with smoke, which is cool if the place smells like a dog's ass
and one-ah-mah-bitches is coming over. Beyond that,
the smoke has no redeeming qualities.

Switch oil brands to enhance the smokes redeeming qualities. Klotz smells fine!

I wonder how much altitude factors in to engine life?I]

Some engine problems can be due to improper jetting.
The usual jetting related problem is when a sled setup for elevation
is ridden at a lower level. An example would be if your sled was
normaly ridden at 8000' and after a big spring storm it is ripped
around the neighborhood at 4000'. Add in the warm temps/wet
sticky snow that follow a spring storm and you can make junk very quickly!

[Mannix]

Yeah, the oil in it is garbage. Switching to Redline Synthetic. I use Klotz or Castor 927 in my KTM (or sometimes Motorex), all of which smell better than the crap that's in it. It stops smoking after ~2 minutes, but those first couple of minutes? yuck....



Iain

[Ireallyliketoski2]

Unless this is a joke, I am sorry, but that's the stupidest f-ing thing I have ever heard in my whole life ever at all.

Once the lifts close, however, game on.

So can you not ride up the resort if it's open, but once it's closed, that is ok?

I don't understand what's so stupid about the question, it seems to be a perfectly viable use of a snowmobile.

[FlatLander]

2008 Polaris 600 RMK 144. Its not the fastest, but it gets me where I need to go.

[ACH]

So can you not ride up the resort if it's open, but once it's closed, that is ok?

I don't understand what's so stupid about the question, it seems to be a perfectly viable use of a snowmobile.

Assuming that this is true elsewhere...
And also my apologies in advance, if this isn't 100% accurate.
In Washington State, ski areas that operate on Forest Service land do so with a seasonal use permit that runs from one date to another. Say for example, October 1st through April 30th. When the area is operating under permit, they set the rules and the land becomes part of "their managed property". In most cases unauthorized use of a snowmobile on "ski area property" is against the rules, lifts running or not.

While the lifts are running sleds traveling up hill are a hazard, many ski areas put special lights and loud beepers on the sleds to warn on coming skiers to help mitigate the liability.

So, to recap...
You on a sled going up a slope at Copper (during their operational season) = unsafe = SC Sherif waiting for you in the parking lot.

[ACH]

Mannix,

Interesting correlation between life expectancy of a sled and region of use.
Totally makes sense to me.

So in summery...

They all break.

[Mannix]

heh, yup. Wish they did not, but whatever. When I bought my last dirtbike, I was "this" close to pulling the trigger on a new KTM. Went for a ride with several people, most of whom were on new bikes (1-3 years old), and half of them had issues - just like the issues I occasionally have.

Sadly, spending $$$$ does not necessarily mean "reliable" in powersports world. It SHOULD increase one's odds, but, well, that's not been my experience - if all the bits are in good working order....


Ahh, it needs to snow more.


Iain

[Ireallyliketoski2]

Assuming that this is true elsewhere...
And also my apologies in advance, if this isn't 100% accurate.
In Washington State, ski areas that operate on Forest Service land do so with a seasonal use permit that runs from one date to another. Say for example, October 1st through April 30th. When the area is operating under permit, they set the rules and the land becomes part of "their managed property". In most cases unauthorized use of a snowmobile on "ski area property" is against the rules, lifts running or not.

While the lifts are running sleds traveling up hill are a hazard, many ski areas put special lights and loud beepers on the sleds to warn on coming skiers to help mitigate the liability.

So, to recap...
You on a sled going up a slope at Copper (during their operational season) = unsafe = SC Sherif waiting for you in the parking lot.

I wonder if there is any period of time during the year where no laws of any nation apply to a ski area, cause if there was I'd be up there tearing off mattress labels like you wouldn't believe, among other things.