Need a XC bike: Intense Cycles Spider XVP a good fit?

[monkeybones]

So about 2 yrs ago I got a decent HT from a friend that was upgrading his bike. Now I am at the point where I feel like I should upgrade to a full suspension frame. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Intense Cycles Spider XVP Mountain Bike Frame. BC has a decent deal going on so I figured I would look into it. Seems like IC makes some nice frames. Anyone have any recommendations about the frame?

btw here is a link for the frame: http://www.intensecycles.com/2008/bi...odel=spiderxvp

[uncle crud]

Steepish head angle on those things compared to some other mfrs frames of similar travel & purpose, but some people dig that. Otherwise I'd expect it to be a solid ride, I know a guy locally that's been on an Intense Spider or 5.5 for 3 years and he really digs it.

I think a few maggots have owned Intense bikes, hopefully you can get some good info here from them.

[FlimFlamvanHam]

Well, you did say an XC bike, and that is an XC bike. For the price BC is selling them for (around $1k?) it's pretty hard to go wrong.

That said, I'm with Uncle Crud...XC or not, I could never do a 71 degree head angle but I ride primarily in some funky technical sections on the North Shore.

I will say that if you don't have a bunch of steep technical descents and drops where a 68+ head angle will constantly launch you over the bars and have the front wheel getting knocked sideways when you want it tracking straight, then a tight head angle is pretty sweet.

If true, light flickable, fast handling XC is what you are truly after, then this is a good bet if you want to build up a bike.

I know from experience, as many can attest, building a bike is one mother expensive way to go, relative to buying built and there are plenty of deals to be had this time of year on a complete machine.

[Daywalker]

I built a 'cheap' bike (factored $800) at about $1200 all in. That was taking realistic measurements of the frame and fork. Lo and behold, the rest cost more. Be careful when you do your price evaluations. It only goes up (I made the cheap mistake).

[monkeybones]

Well, you did say an XC bike, and that is an XC bike. For the price BC is selling them for (around $1k?) it's pretty hard to go wrong.

That said, I'm with Uncle Crud...XC or not, I could never do a 71 degree head angle but I ride primarily in some funky technical sections on the North Shore.

I will say that if you don't have a bunch of steep technical descents and drops where a 68+ head angle will constantly launch you over the bars and have the front wheel getting knocked sideways when you want it tracking straight, then a tight head angle is pretty sweet.

If true, light flickable, fast handling XC is what you are truly after, then this is a good bet if you want to build up a bike.

I know from experience, as many can attest, building a bike is one mother expensive way to go, relative to buying built and there are plenty of deals to be had this time of year on a complete machine.

I am still new to MTB, so I am curious about the head angle thing. Just to get an idea of what other bikes are out there, I have looked at Specialized, Giant, Rocky Mountain Bikes, and Kona and just about all of their XC bikes have a head angle around 70-71. I'm not into jumps or hard core DH riding. I just want a solid setup for single tracks and switchbacks, just general XC riding. Wouldn't something with a head angle < 68 degrees be more of a DH/free ride bike?

[uncle crud]

monkeybones --

Yeah, when the head angle gets slacker (smaller number) than 68, you're talking about more descent-oriented geometry. The terrain throughout most of the BC regions I've ridden (Squamish, Nelson, Fernie) is pretty damned steep and descending stuff that steep on 71deg head angle is sketchy. Some riders can handle it, most prefer something much slacker.

For singletrack and tight switchbacks, a 71 deg HA is good. So is 70 deg, so is 69 deg. The range of 69-71 deg HA is typical of generic non-racing cross country (also called "trail" or "all mountain" by some asshole magazine writers) MTB geometry. The steeper angles for those who really love to climb, the slacker angles for those who simply put up with the climb to get to the other stuff.

The slacker you go, the more you will fight to keep the front wheel tracking straight when you are climbing steeper pitches. So what you need to do is try to guess what you will enjoy riding most, and bias your bike choices in that direction.

You're never going to know what kind of MTB rider you'll eventually become, so it's better to get a bike that suits what you want to do right now. If that means singletrack and keeping the craziness to a minimum, the Intense is probably a decent choice.

I agree completely with Johnny Sizzler on buying a complete bike. Don't get so caught up in the name brand of Intense that you overlook some great choices. You can get a ton of bike for your buck with big brands like Giant. I would think a great choice would be something like the Giant Trance X. Having a "bling" bike doesn't mean shit, really. What matters is what works best for you on the trail, and "bling" doesn't factor into that analysis.

While 68.5 is pretty slack, the used Kona Dawg that spankthepow is selling for $1300 is a pretty decent buy for a FS bike. But it may be more bike than you're seeking.

[spider]

So about 2 yrs ago I got a decent HT from a friend that was upgrading his bike. Now I am at the point where I feel like I should upgrade to a full suspension frame. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Intense Cycles Spider XVP Mountain Bike Frame. BC has a decent deal going on so I figured I would look into it. Seems like IC makes some nice frames. Anyone have any recommendations about the frame?

btw here is a link for the frame: http://www.intensecycles.com/2008/bi...odel=spiderxvp

I have been riding a Spider for the last 3 years and love that bike. What others have said about the HA is accurate, but if you are coming from a HT I don’t think it will be a problem. While some I ride with can point-and-shoot on steep technical descents, I have to pick my lines more carefully. Everywhere else though, I feel my bike is more efficient. I guess it just depends on what you want your bike to do.
That being said, I bought a Tracer and will be selling my Spider in the spring, so, I may be full of shit.

[monkeybones]

I have been riding a Spider for the last 3 years and love that bike. What others have said about the HA is accurate, but if you are coming from a HT I don’t think it will be a problem. While some I ride with can point-and-shoot on steep technical descents, I have to pick my lines more carefully. Everywhere else though, I feel my bike is more efficient. I guess it just depends on what you want your bike to do.
That being said, I bought a Tracer and will be selling my Spider in the spring, so, I may be full of shit.

Any reason for selling the Spider? Or just want something new?

[spider]

I want something with more travel, and I can't afford a quiver of bikes.

[ACHTUNG]

I bought the Spider XVP this summer on Chainlove as my first bike build. I've been slowly buying components and all I can say is holy shit, building your own bike is FUCKING EXPENSIVE! I'm having fun with it because I get to pick and choose which components I want but man, I under-estimated how much it was going to cost. So far (including the frame) I'm up to $3,350 and I still need to get a crank, BB and headset. I know that this isn't much for a lot of people out there but it def. is more than I expected.

[monkeybones]

I bought the Spider XVP this summer on Chainlove as my first bike build. I've been slowly buying components and all I can say is holy shit, building your own bike is FUCKING EXPENSIVE! I'm having fun with it because I get to pick and choose which components I want but man, I under-estimated how much it was going to cost. So far (including the frame) I'm up to $3,350 and I still need to get a crank, BB and headset. I know that this isn't much for a lot of people out there but it def. is more than I expected.

What is the build quality like on the frame? Pretty good from what you can tell? How do the welds look?

Yeah I realize that it would be more expensive to build than to buy a built bike. But one thing that I really want is a good solid frame that I can use for a long time. One thing I like about the Intense Cycles frame is that they are hand built here in the USA. I like the chance to be able to support a home grown company.

So with the frame included, would I be looking at a build cost of around $3000-3500? I'm not going to go for top of the line everything. I will obviously try to get most of the parts on sale, so hopefully that will help a little even though I'll have to pay for shipping:

-$400 Manitou Fork (on sale)
-$1600 SRAM X-9 build with everything else (wheels, tires, brakes, headset, saddle, seatpost...ec.)

That should be fairly doable right? Is there really a comparable or better frame/build that I could get in the $3-3.5k range than the Intense frame? Even something along the lines of a Santa Cruz Blur XC similarly spec'd would come out to be around the same price I believe.

[ACHTUNG]

What is the build quality like on the frame? Pretty good from what you can tell? How do the welds look?

Yeah I realize that it would be more expensive to build than to buy a built bike. But one thing that I really want is a good solid frame that I can use for a long time. One thing I like about the Intense Cycles frame is that they are hand built here in the USA. I like the chance to be able to support a home grown company.

So with the frame included, would I be looking at a build cost of around $3000-3500? I'm not going to go for top of the line everything. I will obviously try to get most of the parts on sale, so hopefully that will help a little even though I'll have to pay for shipping:

-$400 Manitou Fork (on sale)
-$1600 SRAM X-9 build with everything else (wheels, tires, brakes, headset, saddle, seatpost...ec.)

That should be fairly doable right? Is there really a comparable or better frame/build that I could get in the $3-3.5k range than the Intense frame? Even something along the lines of a Santa Cruz Blur XC similarly spec'd would come out to be around the same price I believe.

The build quality is excellent. Welds are solid and beefy. It's a well made frame for sure. Built in the USA is a great thing too.

You can def. build it in the $3-$3.5 range.

Here is what I have for it so far (I'll prob.be in the $3800-$3900 range when I'm done):

SID 100 with Pushloc
DT Swiss 240 XC Wheelset
Raceface Deuce XC Stem
Easton EC90 Carbon Flat XC Bar
Lock-On Grips
Easton EC90 Carbon Post
XTR Top Mount Front Derailleur
XTR Rear Derailleur Long Cage
XTR Trigger Shifters
Saint Disk 203mm Brakes
SRAM PG990 Cassette
Egg Beaters SL
Titec HellBent Nemesis Expert Seat
Panaracer Fire XC Pro Tires
SRAM PC971 Chain

[uncle crud]

Hey, listen.

"What do the welds look like?"

That's a silly statement. You can't tell the quality of a weld by looking at it. Welds fail because of heat zone irregularities (not visible), by contamination in the joint (not visible), by superheating and thereby weakening the tubes being joined (not visible), and by structural trauma (visible after the fact in some cases).

I know people like to drool over "perfect welds," but a weld doesn't have to look "perfect" to be solid. Riders should realize that the obsession over "perfect welds" is a sales pitch started by the Ti frame makers who began selling frames at high-end prices. It has no bearing on the quality of the weld.

[ACHTUNG]

You also want to consider your weight and how aggressive you are. It's a pretty light frame and may not suit you if you're a heavy guy that breaks cranks when torquing.

[monkeybones]

Hey, listen.



That's a silly statement. You can't tell the quality of a weld by looking at it. Welds fail because of heat zone irregularities (not visible), by contamination in the joint (not visible), by superheating and thereby weakening the tubes being joined (not visible), and by structural trauma (visible after the fact in some cases).

I know people like to drool over "perfect welds," but a weld doesn't have to look "perfect" to be solid. Riders should realize that the obsession over "perfect welds" is a sales pitch started by the Ti frame makers who began selling frames at high-end prices. It has no bearing on the quality of the weld.

Point well taken. You might have misunderstood the point of my question. I realize that welds don't say much about the quality of the frame, however I think that it is a fair statement to say that quality frames have good weld jobs. Those are two separate things. Good welds doesn't necessarily make it a good bike. I just wanted to hear what the craftsmanship of the frame looked like and if it appeared Intense Cycles took the time to build it and take pride in their work. Sorry if my question seemed idiotic, that wasn't the point of it.

[monkeybones]

So is the consensus that it is wiser to buy a built bike with a solid frame and upgrade from there rather than buy a frame and build from scratch? The SC Blur XC looks like another solid bike as well for the ridding I do; singletracks/trails, fire roads and XC. Any other frames you guys want to throw out there?

[FlimFlamvanHam]

I would totally agree, especially at this time of year, your budget of $3500 will get your bike built the way you would like, but to someone like me, I like to get the $4K bike for $2500, so I would be looking for the October blowouts. If you don't need to do that, then no worries. CArry on and build exactly what you want.

And I will second that Intense makes very, very nice frames. As does Santa Cruz, but I think there are some improvements in store for the new little Blurs ala the current '09 Blur LT improvements.

And remember, no matter what you buy, you'll always want something else, just cuz you're human and that's what we do, so no use debating over Santa Cruz or Intense or whatever. Both VPP high qual N/A made (Is Santa Cruz still made here?) frames with very similar angles and purpose.

[uncle crud]

monkeybones -- I wasn't meaning to come down hard on you or anyone about welds. I just get damned frustrated when I see people pretending to make discernments about quality when all they're doing is making uninformed statements that probably have some traction because they heard the statement ("perfect welds") from someone they respect. MTB journalists don't help matters, as they perpetuate the silly notion of "perfect welds" but that's mainly because most of them don't know how to write or analyze, so they're always grasping for things to talk about.

I'll be honest here, as someone who tried to make a go of custom framebuilding -- the craftsmanship that goes into a frame isn't visible from the outside. It's mainly in how the framebuilder cuts ("miters") tubes and how well they fit together before welding, and it's in the attention paid while welding. Neither of these things is visible from the outside unless a huge mistake is made.

The best clue to a frame's quality is its builder's reputation for durability and frame performance on-trail.

And in closing --

That Johnny Sizzler dude posts some good thoughts!

[marshalolson]

FWIW a good buddy is selling a medium spider in good shape with a basically new rear shock (marz. roco air).

holla if interested. actually don't holler at me. holler at Z, he works with the dude.

[monkeybones]

I would totally agree, especially at this time of year, your budget of $3500 will get your bike built the way you would like, but to someone like me, I like to get the $4K bike for $2500, so I would be looking for the October blowouts. If you don't need to do that, then no worries. CArry on and build exactly what you want.

And I will second that Intense makes very, very nice frames. As does Santa Cruz, but I think there are some improvements in store for the new little Blurs ala the current '09 Blur LT improvements.

And remember, no matter what you buy, you'll always want something else, just cuz you're human and that's what we do, so no use debating over Santa Cruz or Intense or whatever. Both VPP high qual N/A made (Is Santa Cruz still made here?) frames with very similar angles and purpose.

Thanks for the post. I will have to look around and see if there are any deals on the SC Blur XC, as I am more interested in that than the LT. It would be nice if I could find one for ~$2500 on sale. It would save a lot of headache and time trying to piece together my own bike and trying to get the best deal on components. I will keep my eye out on some blowouts. Hopefully with the slowing economy it might be easier to score a good deal on a bike?

[FlimFlamvanHam]

mb, if you're looking for something wicked for a great deal, this might be of interest to you.

http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/368410/

It's Devinci's top lightweight trail bike (not their lighter, tighter race dually...they make a couple of heavyweights too). A 2008 REmix SL5 in what appears to be prestine condition. Retail is about $5 k in these parts. The only issue with these is Devinci, being Canadian I guess, run a slack head tube angle. This one, with a Fox 120 will be 69 degrees. Get rid of that fork and slap on a little Talas or a Revelation or the like and at max travel (5" or 130mm) it will be about 68.5 and at min travel (3.5" or 85mm) around 70.5...a great all rounder.

Anyway, these bikes are handmade in Quebec, full needle bearing pivots all round and carry a lifetime warranty. I do like the true four bar Horst link as well. I don't know if they sell these in the US as I don't know if Devinci paid Specialized for the rights to the FSR (Horst) rear end?

Anyway, I was talking to the guy since he posted this about 4 weeks late otherwise I would have bought it and even though he's asking $2800 CDN he'd go to $2300...which is about $1900 US right now? Check out the picks (click on the thumbs for larger full res shots) in the link. It's like brand new.

[monkeybones]

mb, if you're looking for something wicked for a great deal, this might be of interest to you.

http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/368410/

It's Devinci's top lightweight trail bike (not their lighter, tighter race dually...they make a couple of heavyweights too). A 2008 REmix SL5 in what appears to be prestine condition. Retail is about $5 k in these parts. The only issue with these is Devinci, being Canadian I guess, run a slack head tube angle. This one, with a Fox 120 will be 69 degrees. Get rid of that fork and slap on a little Talas or a Revelation or the like and at max travel (5" or 130mm) it will be about 68.5 and at min travel (3.5" or 85mm) around 70.5...a great all rounder.

Anyway, these bikes are handmade in Quebec, full needle bearing pivots all round and carry a lifetime warranty. I do like the true four bar Horst link as well. I don't know if they sell these in the US as I don't know if Devinci paid Specialized for the rights to the FSR (Horst) rear end?

Anyway, I was talking to the guy since he posted this about 4 weeks late otherwise I would have bought it and even though he's asking $2800 CDN he'd go to $2300...which is about $1900 US right now? Check out the picks (click on the thumbs for larger full res shots) in the link. It's like brand new.

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