Avalung question???

[encore]

a beacon. is there two different modes, transmit recieve....if you begin a slide/fall/tumble....there will be precious little time to mess with a beacon....

to answer my own question perhaps, does everyone set it to transmit, and only a potential rescurer flip it to a different mode

ok jong on

Board Name, Moving to Colorado, Skied at Vail, Posts like this = Confirmed TROLL

[pechelman]

Iv'e made a few ski cuts with it already in my mouth.
I think trackhead summed it up with something to the effect of if that's the case you may want to requestion you terrain choices.

i want to say BD actually reccomends skiing with it in your mouth in Avy terrain.
but im with trackhead on his sentiments as a friend and i have had that very same discussion.

as a general note
if you're wearing an avalung, and you're in avy terrain, at least remove the mouth piece from its little pocket so you dont have to when its too late

[skiman]

The unofficial BD response is to treat the Avalung just like when you are going down on your woman. Have your mouth on the mouthpiece, just like her C..., if you want to increase the probability of you, her getting off in your respective scenerios. That is all.

[Core Shot]

i want to say BD actually reccomends skiing with it in your mouth in Avy terrain.
but im with trackhead on his sentiments as a friend and i have had that very same discussion.

That's like having sex with a condom. with a mannekin
(or sex with a man kin).

Skiing Pow wow breathing through the Darth Vader tube is harshing my buzzz.

If hazard is that high, you shouldn't be skiing.

If I did, however, get caught in in bad conditions, a sketchy settlement cracking wierd snow wind loaded funk, I would have no hesitation to putting it in my mouth, because at that point skiing is no longer fun.

[Shredhead]

I always ski with my Avalung in the BC and sometimes in bounds. I never ski with the mouth piece in place. But hope I can get it in just prior to stopping in an avalanche or a NARSID case.

I would rather have it and find out I can't, than not have it and find that I probably could.

[Smokey McPole]

So, do you guys have the avalung in your mouth all the way down on every run, and sometimes on the way up?

Like TH, I've had the mouthpiece in my mouth while doing ski cuts, but not while actually skiing. The wind blowing past the mouthpiece makes a really cool derrigeedooo (sp?) noise when you go real fast.

..and I wear one inbounds on certain special days. Like I said before - it's completely un-obtrusive and the only risk involved with wearing one is being looked down upon by hardercore-than-thou dishwashers.

[Scotsman50]

I like to entertain my friends with my incredible avalung trumpeting skills. When used like a trumpet I can get a pretty good rendition of Amazing Grace out of it. Seriously.

But my 2cents is, if I am ski cutting or first down a slope I stick it in my mouth for the first ten turns or so then drop it. If I am not ski cutting or first down I usually leave it postitioned near my mouth. No science to the above but it feels right for me.

I have practiced getting it into my mouth while skiing and it's hard , especially with goggles on as they prevent you from seeing it if you dont use your hand

. The trick I found was to drop my pole on my dominant hand and grab the tube and get it into my mouth. My practise sessions have convinced me that I probably have enough time to do this in a slab fracture before getting smothered.

I guess the main point of my post is to practise with it. Ski and have somebody make a loud noise and see how long it takes. I know that my pracitise sessions gave me some confidence . awake1563 can kiss my ass as I think the original question a valid one

[smuggs]

saying you dont use an avalung because an avalanche is violent is stupid. why do you wear a beacon then? if you think automatically you are going to get battered then just go out bare ass. i think if you are wearing a beacon you should have an avalung.

beacon, shovel, probe, avalung.

does anyone think really that 6 minutes is enough time for someone (who may be stoned) to hone in with a beacon, find you with a probe and shovel you out....... just getting the gear ready could take a minute. if your buddies are below you, forget about it.

i have heard of people being burried for over an hour with an avalung on. (test runs of course)

the choice is yours.

[Lizhnik]

^^^ I don't follow that logic at all. A beacon is attached to your body in such a way that it is highly unlikely it will be ripped off. Getting the breathing tube of an Avalung into your mouth and keeping it there in the midst of a violent avalanche is a different story altogether. I have an Avalung and wear it sometimes, but put little faith in it for this very reason. It's just another passive system, like a beacon. I do almost always ski with an ABS pack, though, because I have personally witnessed them save lives and I think your best bet to survive an avalanche is to avoid getting buried.

It's funny, I have this discussion with a friend all the time, he's a big Avalung believer. The idea is that it buys you some time, but that also assumes help is coming and you can't always count on that in the bc. I guess it's just a matter of increasing your percentages and anything you can do in that respect, you should.

awake1563 - you would've been more effective in getting your point across if you weren't such a dick about it...

[Jonathan S.]

The other thing I think an avalung is useful for is a bad fall into a tree well in very deep new snow.

Agreed -- was nice to have it there with me, just in case, after I mindlessly followed a poorly set skintrack:

[smuggs]

^^^ I don't follow that logic at all. A beacon is attached to your body in such a way that it is highly unlikely it will be ripped off. Getting the breathing tube of an Avalung into your mouth and keeping it there in the midst of a violent avalanche is a different story altogether. I have an Avalung and wear it sometimes, but put little faith in it for this very reason. It's just another passive system, like a beacon. I do almost always ski with an ABS pack, though, because I have personally witnessed them save lives and I think your best bet to survive an avalanche is to avoid getting buried.

It's funny, I have this discussion with a friend all the time, he's a big Avalung believer. The idea is that it buys you some time, but that also assumes help is coming and you can't always count on that in the bc. I guess it's just a matter of increasing your percentages and anything you can do in that respect, you should.

awake1563 - you would've been more effective in getting your point across if you weren't such a dick about it...

if you dont count on help coming why wear your beacon.

i know how to bite down hard. its a natural pain reliever anyways. bitting should be no problem.

anytime you put your beacon on you should have an avalung.

[Lizhnik]

if you dont count on help coming why wear your beacon.

i know how to bite down hard. its a natural pain reliever anyways. bitting should be no problem.

anytime you put your beacon on you should have an avalung.

It's not that I don't count on help coming, it's that if I am in a situation where it isn't, an avalung won't help. I think of beacons more as body-finders, but I do see your point that they, in conjunction with another safety device like an avalung, can potentially save your life. Still, having seen the violence of avalanches and how they just thrash anything caught in their paths, my money is on an abs pack over an avalung...

jonathan s - maybe if you lightened up on the gear a bit, you wouldn't fall through the snow so much.

[Jonathan S.]

jonathan s - maybe if you lightened up on the gear a bit, you wouldn't fall through the snow so much.

Since that series of pictures was taken last season, I switched my mid-winter boot from the Scarpa Matrix to the Dynafit Zzero 4 C-TF, which saved precious ounces, along with downsizing a bit, so even more weight savings -- with my weight:area ratio thus reduced, now I have a much larger margin of safety near treewells!

[Dromond]

The other thing I think an avalung is useful for is a bad fall into a tree well in very deep new snow.

That's a very good point, actually.

It's pretty hard to argue against beacon/probe/shovel since they are the standard accepted equipment, but I've been pretty skeptical of Avalungs as a method to improve safety in the backcountry. Perhaps it could save your life, but does that matter if it makes you more confident or distracted and more likely to start a slide in a spot that you shouldn't be in in the first place? It's easy to say "Just ski as if it isn't there" but backcountry skiing is so gear intensive in the first place that it's easy to get distracted from what you really need to pay attention to: the terrain, snowpack, weather, etc.

NARSID on the other hand... The snow is generally unconsolidated (thus why you've fallen in there) so getting the mouthpiece in your mouth seems much more likely. Is there any information to back this up?

[Jonathan S.]

The snow is generally unconsolidated (thus why you've fallen in there) so getting the mouthpiece in your mouth seems much more likely. Is there any information to back this up?

Here's a good paper on difficulty of treewell self-rescue:
http://www.nwac.us/education_resourc...fatalities.pdf
(I was able to self-rescue only b/c: I didn't go in that deeply; I stayed upright when I went in; and, I was in skinning mode, not skiing mode.)

Anyway, based on everything I've read about treewell falls, I think getting the Avalung mouthpiece in your mouth would be a nearly 100% success rate. Death essentially comes by the real-world manifestation of the proverbial "digging yourself a hole" through unsuccessful attempts at self-extrication. (I've never heard of anyone's upper body being immediately immobilized, a la an avy burial -- if anything it's ineffective movements with the person's limbs that leads to getting deeper & deeper in the treewell, i.e., limbs vs limbs!)
Being able to sit tight and breath easily, alternating with blowing a readily accessible whistle to alert companions, seems like it would be a very effective combination.
(By contrast, although the track record for successfull Avalung mouthpiece insertion is 100% so far, that reflects only 5 incidents, and I doubt that 100% track record will continue for very long. I still think an Avalung is a valuble complement to the avy rescue gear triad, but I'm sure we'll start seeing some unsuccessful deployments soon. I doubt though we'll *ever* have a NARSID for an Avalung- and whistle-equipped non-solo skier.)

[1000-oaks]

I ski with the Covert pack and have the tube out on deep days, even in-bounds. (wearing a beacon too of course)

On one occassion I dropped 1,500 feet with the mouthpiece firmly in my teeth, after I realized my exceedingly poor judgement had put me in a life-threatening position. Fun when right out the window and I chose lines as if my life depended on it. And it did; three lost their lives in separate releases just minutes before and minutes after my decent, two of them on the exact same slope. I still find myself wondering if the second two slides broke away as someone crossed my track, not realizing the instability until it was too late.

[awake1563]

I'm gonna newb and jong it up all at one time....so forgive me

Thankyou for using the sledgehammer to drive my point home...

awake1563 - you would've been more effective in getting your point across if you weren't such a dick about it...

My tone of my response to these types of questions is the same as the tone of my response to the guy laying on the four shadows cornice with his 14 year old next to him, after a 2 foot dump, asking me where the good stuff is... slightly different scenarios, either way, both the OP and the guy on the cornice forgot to read a couple vital parts of the rest of the book. Luckily, hopefully, the OP hasn't endangered anyone else with his lack of knowledge. Flame on, maybe we can start teaching each other how to tie our shoelaces.

It seems as though Jer had an unpleasant experience with a dishwashing skid. Tell us Jer, how hot does it get inside one of those industrial dishwashers? As of now I think you've got me wrong. Next time you get a lifesaving ride in a meatwagon, or get a ride down the hill from a troller, then you can think of me Jer.

Take note as well kids, on how off base Jer's comments are...

so the plusses outweigh the single minus of possibly being looked down upon by super hard-core freshman year dishwashers like awake1563.

I'm still searching for a post where I mentioned anything about the efficacy of avalungs, beacons, etc... goood thing he covered his ass with a possibly in there.

[Jer]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bro-ham, what part of "epic fail" don't you unnerstand?

[Lizhnik]

My tone of my response to these types of questions is the same as the tone of my response to the guy laying on the four shadows cornice with his 14 year old next to him, after a 2 foot dump, asking me where the good stuff is... slightly different scenarios, either way, both the OP and the guy on the cornice forgot to read a couple vital parts of the rest of the book. Luckily, hopefully, the OP hasn't endangered anyone else with his lack of knowledge. Flame on, maybe we can start teaching each other how to tie our shoelaces.

It sounds like you put a lot of confidence in books. My own view is that avalanche safety is as much an art as it is a science and you must always be humble. I lost a friend in an avalanche this past winter, he was one of the safest, most experienced and knowledgeable skiers/alpinists I know.

I saw nothing in the original post that warranted your tirade. The ensuing discussion showed that the question was legitimate, as even more experienced mags have differing opinions on the subject at hand. And, as I already pointed out, you could have made your point in a respectful manner. As it is, every single person who responded to you said you were out of line and you managed to let jer bait you into a flaming war (I may be a JONG, but I know you're going to lose that one pretty much every time.).

[StuntCok]

FWIW I was lucky enough to get to ski with the Wink Inc boys when they did the Valdez portion of Respect. A few of them were involved in some pretty gnarly avis and in all cases where they had an avalung, they managed to get it in their mouth and keep it there. There is even some great helmet cam footage of Kaj Zakericson (I am sure that is mispelled) bringing it accross his face while being put through the washing machine.

[StroupSkier]

I've never understood the idea that you don't have enough time to put the avalung peice in your mouth when you start an avy. I started two small ones before I had an avalung, and neither would have presented a problem. The idea being that you are prepared and expect it so that you don't have to think about what to do. Then again, I move at a pretty fast pace and usually have my hand on the horn of my car as soon as the light turns green in case someone isn't paying attention. I certainly have seen a lot of people though who are slow as molasas and have to think everything through before they can do anything who would never get the thing in their mouths.

Keeping it in during a ski cut is a good idea, but otherwise I am skiing with it out of the pouch, but not in my mouth.

While the original question may be valid, it certainly isn't smart. To even think you have the chance to move under a set avalanche is laughable at best. While there are isolated cases where people get an air pocket, if you could move the few inches to get to your mouthpeice, why wouldn't you just dig yourself out?

[gaijin]

all avalanche tools fall under one umbrella-category:

They are tools that you never hope to need, yet can't justify not owning.

If there is a tool designed for "something" in an attempt to keep you safe... use it.

And- hope to god you will never need it.

And- make sure your partners know how to use theirs. (this is more important than your user-knowledge.)

Until then... and thereafter... assume that everything you touch will slide. (because it will)

Those are the fucking rules. Now shut the fuck up about tools. This isn't elementary school where you ask your teacher- "Do I need a notebook?"

fuck off. And get your shit together.

[Tri-Ungulate]

I think the question is warranted. The only really big slide I got caught in, I'd left my Avalung in the car, as I foolishly thought I wouldn't need it (Springtime in the Eastern Sierras, no new snow for 10+ days, refreeze overnight). In any case, the 2' wet slab release and 3' step-down to hard slab happened so fast and violently I don't know if I would've had time to get the tube in.

This past winter touring above Blackcomb Glacier, I got dragged down by a slough. My initial skicut didn't move anything, but subsequent turns at the choke of the couloir pulled some new snow down right after this shot was taken:

(photo credit Lee Lau)

While I was being washing-machined, I was trying to decide if I should grab the tube and start breathing through it, but was able to right myself and ski out of the runout. In that case, I think I might have had enough time to get the Avalung tube into place, but just barely, and it would have required presence of mind and a lot of focus.

Like TH, I usually have the tube in during skicuts, but take it out for the rest of the run unless I'm gripped and have no other exit options.

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

On some choker-deep pow shots (steep, narrow gullies for instance), I'll just put my avalung mouthpiece in and breath through it while skiing. That way you can focus on directing your ski tips where you want go rather than having to time your breathing by "porpoising" at the beginning of your turns... just breath normally and get into it! It's nice to NOT choke on snow as you are breathing heavily! I've had some panic-snow-chokes before.

[Cyber Cop]

I have a patent pending for the Catheter-Lung. I'm hoping it will address some fundamental flaws in previous devises.