Vibram sole on an Alpine boot – DIY

[Idris]

Having had Vibram on my previous boots and noticed a huge difference returning to smooth plastic with my new boots – I was now weary of any uneven hard surface, and rock scrambling was now out of the question . Unfortunately the shop which had done the previous conversion was no longer. I also liked the idea of a rockered soul like my AT Boots, time for some DIY.

Supplies: screws, Glue – Evostick contact adhesive and later Sikaflex 291 marine sealant, Vibram sole from a shoe repair shop (who were horrified at the sight of ski boots!), bits of wood.
Tools: Large rasp (for filing horses hooves), power sander, power driver, sharp knife, C clamps. Duck Tape, Large Vice (handy but not really necessary).



First off remove the liner and footbed (the one in the shell). No point in trashing that and it gets in the way anyway. The Vibram makes the boot thicker so it won’t fit in bindings anymore, the boot has to be thinned..



..My Richlee F1’s had a replaceable toe insert, this gave me an good indication of how far I could thin the boot without going to far. To get a rockered sole to make walking easier I started with this as my thinnest bit and hardly removed any material from the rearward part of the toe section.



The heal section on my boots is removable, too bit to just replace , to shallow to remove much. I made it as thin as I dared. To make it fit in bindings I cut down the depth of the tread, the easiest way of thinning the Vibram. The Vibram also need weakening where it bends steeply right at the rear, or it just tries to flatten and unglues itself!

To make the boot smooth I sanded what I had filed. My buddies power sander is quite a noisy beast so ear protection is necessary. You have to be careful to sand flat, not lop sided.



Evostick contact adhesive has to be dry before contact is made....otherwise it doesn’t work....don’t rush or you will just have to do it again! Marine sealant is messier stuff but not so fussy. Clamping firmly for 24+ hours give the glue a chance to set. The best way I found was clamping a sturdy piece of wood underneath with little wedges to follow the shape of the boot.....couldn’t make a ski binding do this job...I tried.



I trimmed the sole to fit with a very sharp kitchen knife, it worked much better than a craft or Stanley knife. I also found that doing this at least trimming them to almost fit is much easier done before gluing.



To make sure the sole never falls off, even if the glue starts to peal I screwed the rubber on. The heal section had retaining screws already, I just put larger ones in the same holes. I put 4 large ones and 2 smaller ones in the toe section. All these had to be cut down to stop them sticking through into the liner. I put the screws all the way in, saw how much they stuck out by then cut them down. I put Vibram all the way down the instep, makes climbing ladders easier...my old ones didn’t have this but my AT boots do, there is quite a difference in practice.



I managed quite a rocker on my boots. This makes walking much more pleasant. Can’t make a walk mode on these boots, not being a traditional 2 piece boot the lower section comes up so high inside taking out rivets and freeing up the hinge jut would wreck the stability of the boot not make it swing for and aft any better . The rocker has the unfortunate effect of stopping the boots from fitting in lots of bindings. They fit fine in higher end Sallys and in AT bindings, but no different from my AT boots. I did squeeze them into some Tyrolias, but the didn’t release to well. They wouldn’t even fit into markers or looks



I’ve tested them by walking around the garden, up and down the street a bit and climbing the front of the house, for a real test I will have to wait until October! One has marine adhesive holding it together and contact adhesive on the other , time will tell which is the best option.

[CaddyDaddy77]

Nicely done Tom, like the choice for ear protection.

How much did it cost you, and what was your approximate time involved?

[Idris]

The UK is an expensive place for supplies, £10 for vibram, £6 each for the diferent glues, £1 for screws...Time 3-4hours, with fuck ups and re gluing....would take me an hour or less to do it again from scratch....

[CaddyDaddy77]

Good deal, I think my old alpines are going to be modified, once I actually move into a place.

Anything you would do differently? Less rocker, etc?

[Rascal King]

Why dont you buy downhill boots and touring boots? No downhill boots with a vibram sole with match the uphill performance of a AT boot. Also the only reason I got two pairs is because vibram soles wont fit in quality downhill bindings. Looks and rossi. No salomon sh*t.

[Idris]

Originally posted by CaddyDaddy77
Good deal, I think my old alpines are going to be modified, once I actually move into a place.

Anything you would do differently? Less rocker, etc?

More care in gluing, first go I didn't wait long enough, had to clean and re glue, cut the sole to hing round the bend on the heal, find some better screws, mabyee short binding screws, like the ones holding the brake on sallys, get a better trimming tool, a stiffer sharp knife....a proper colber uses a rotating blade, I think buying a power plae for this job is overkill. The choice of glue and the ammount of rocker will have to wait till they have had a fair few ski trips.....as for the binding issue, I've lived with this one for 5 seasons already, so no change....I'd rather the stability on foot than a larger choice of binders.

[splat]

Tom - I've been wanting to do this myself for quite some time for all the same reasons. The shop geeks I've talked to say it nullifies the anti friction pad function under the toepiece, which I don't believe. My technicas don't have toe replacements like my old ones did and are worn beyond the standard pencil height of what is considered safe operational limits. In other words, no shop will put that boot in a binding for mounting or adjustment purposes.
When you get out here this year, let's do this to my boots and catch it on film for a mag DIY story. Nice work!

[crashnburn'd]

Originally posted by Rascal King
Why dont you buy downhill boots and touring boots? No downhill boots with a vibram sole with match the uphill performance of a AT boot. Also the only reason I got two pairs is because vibram soles wont fit in quality downhill bindings. Looks and rossi. No salomon sh*t.

Because no touring boots will match the downhill performance of downhill boots

[Rascal King]

That was'nt my point. I was tyring to say touring boots have more comfort than a downhill boot on the way uphill. If you need to put vibram soles on downhill boots you might as well just buy some touring boots.

[crashnburn'd]

I agree they're more comfortable, but you missed my point. Many people don't think a touring boot performs well enough on the way down, especially in sketchy conditions.

[Rascal King]

Yea I agree, I got some Denalis xt and Lange 120 and you can ski more agressive in the langes than the denalis. I still think they should make a super stiff at boot, that would just be sick but weight a fuk load.

[Spats]

Originally posted by splat
The shop geeks I've talked to say it nullifies the anti friction pad function under the toepiece, which I don't believe.

That depends on the binding. Some bindings have moving AFDs: Look, Marker, Tyrolia. This means a Vibram sole will still release normally, if it's not dragging on anything else in the toepiece.

Salomons have static AFDs. I would not use a Vibram with them, because the binding is unlikely to release properly, if at all.

Don't remember what the Atomic AFD looks like.

[Idris]

Originally posted by splat
Tom - I've been wanting to do this myself for quite some time for all the same reasons. The shop geeks I've talked to say it nullifies the anti friction pad function under the toepiece, which I don't believe. My technicas don't have toe replacements like my old ones did and are worn beyond the standard pencil height of what is considered safe operational limits. In other words, no shop will put that boot in a binding for mounting or adjustment purposes.
When you get out here this year, let's do this to my boots and catch it on film for a mag DIY story. Nice work!

Cool idea...you will need to get some vibram and glue, ask Walt, I think the store that did his boots should be able to help.

[ulty_guy]

so why does an AT binding w/ an AFD release a vibram sole ok and not an alpine binding? or is it that it's just an accepted risk using AT binder/boots together?

[Mulletizer]

Originally posted by ulty_guy
so why does an AT binding w/ an AFD release a vibram sole ok and not an alpine binding? or is it that it's just an accepted risk using AT binder/boots together?

The toe of the boot needs to be able to slide sideays out of the of the binding toe piece. Two things on alpine bindings can prevent this:

- Some binders do not have a big enough height adjustment in the toe meaning that the toe of the boot is pinched or wedged in won't slide out in a sideays release.
- The boot toe normally slides on a "anti friction device" to be released sideways - normally a piece of white plastic. Some binders are a shape that means a boot with rocker and/or Vibram sole contacts with a different part of the binding and sticks and won't slide out to release.

Basically you need to get the right binding/boot combo to avoid this occurring. AT bindings are deliberately designed so this will not happen; not all alpine bindings can be set up/are designed so it will not occur.

[summit]

Xfer post:
I've skied this whole season with Garmont G-Rides in Look P-12s and they have gone in fine and released consistantly and reliably because of the moving AFD and rotating heel despite their auto toe height.

Too much toe height and you will max out the Rossi/Look and Marker (which I have also tried them in, Comp 1400s with stainless steel moving AFD).

Sollys, however, rely on teflon AFDs to reduce friction on an alpine plastic sole and release highly unreliably in twisting falls with vibram sole boots despite their variable toe heigth. I tested it in a $15K binding test machine our shop had and it could vary +-3 DIN settings on the Solly while there was not so much variation on the Looks or the Marker.

AT bindings have manual toe height with a wide range and a moving AFD.

[ulty_guy]

older sally's have a sliding afd like the look/rossi though, AND, they still have the toe and wing height adjustment. then would this not be the better alpine binder if you are going to use rubber soles?

[marshalolson]

^^^ Bump ^^^
everyone with trashed old boots should try this!
see folks, use the seach function, and yur question has probably already been answered.
good job idris!

[laseranimal]

I'm debating doing this to an old pair of salomon boots I have

Excellent use of the bump function

[gravitylover]

The only problem I see is will the thinned down sole still be rigid enough to provide for a consistent release and will the plastic retain enough integrity to provide reliable retention? Instead of assorted different glues I think that the Hardman Urethane Epoxy should be perfect. It retains a reasonable level of flexibility at extremely low temps so it shouldn't shatter while hiking and cause the sole to "peel."

[Idris]

The only problem I see is will the thinned down sole still be rigid enough to provide for a consistent release and will the plastic retain enough integrity to provide reliable retention? Instead of assorted different glues I think that the Hardman Urethane Epoxy should be perfect. It retains a reasonable level of flexibility at extremely low temps so it shouldn't shatter while hiking and cause the sole to "peel."

I managed to get some industrial contact adhesive from a shoe repair supplies place...has to be heated quite a lot to work and then camped quite hard also....works ok in -25C so far......as for consistant release tension? if you are far enough from the piste to justify doing this to your boots you are facing the BC on your own terms, woring about exact DIN # should not be on your mind....anyone who realy wories about the difference between din 6 and 7.5 should stay on piste....preferably blue runs or easier....at least thats what Guides in 3 alpine resorts and patrolers form 2 NA ski resorts tell me!

[marshalolson]

i saw in another thread that you have also added a walk feature.
do you have any hints on this as well?
thanks.

[Idris]

i saw in another thread that you have also added a walk feature.
do you have any hints on this as well?
thanks.

Not on my boots...it's not possible due to the lower shell and upper shell of the F1's being one piece (the hinge bit just holds buckles)...but yes on my buddies salomons I have...here goes

On the rear of the boot where the top and bottom sections meet there is a rivet holding the top down....when this is removed the whole thing hinges a bit....where the top touches the bottom part stopping it becoming more upright grind the bottom lip away to let the top (upper cuff) swing more upriight...this part is popular with heli guides who want to stand more upright whilst skiing easy slopes (most clients) - next you need to stiffen the whole thing up again to make it ski again...for this I used the locking mechanism off the back of an old AT boot, I've also found the same (or similar enough) mechanism on the back of hard boot snowboard boots and late 80's race boots...you could make your own...the simplest to make would probably be similar to the Dynafit lightweight boots....its a loop of steel bar thathinges on the lower half and locks into a slot on the upper half.....I didn't think much of this mechanism myself but I've since seen skiers on said lightweight gear ski some of the scariest stuff in Chamonix!

[mntlion]

Release and making the boots DIN standard.

Toe thinkness is 20mm and heel is 30mm, If your boot heels , after vibram, are more then this grind the top of the heel lidge down to this height again. Toes just use something with a moveable toe height (salomon, diamers, some tyrolias etc)

Release: I tested a Diamer, a new salomon, a Vibram touring boot and a alpine boot, in all posible 4 combinations and they ALL TESTED WITHIN the DIN tolerance. The diamers with the alpine boots where bang on, but all tested just fine. I think it is more of a legal worry with the binding companies rather then a real worry.

[mntlion]

oh ya thanks to Tom (Iris) for redoing my old franken boot job and girlguide too