Legal question - property easment related

[Beaver]

I've got some acres, my neighbor has some too. There is a 3" water line across my property that is part of our community water system (12 family water users group). There is junction box with my neighbor's and my water lines coming off the main line. The main line ends at the junction box. There is an easement on my property for the 3" line and an easement for my neighbors 1.5" line on my property. Neighbor is subdividing his property to his sons. His son is a dick and says that he can put a water line across my property to his property because his dad already has an easement. I think he requires an additional easement for the line to his property. His line would end up being 10' from his dads line.

If he needs an easement to install his pipe and I am a dick and don't grant (or sell) him one can he use his dads pipe to get water to his property?

Clear as mud?

[iceman]

well I'm not a lawyer and I have no idea what I'm talking about but that's never stopped me before. Sounds to me like he would need a new easement for a new pipe.

Don't know why he couldn't tap off his dad's pipe though, unless there is something in the original agreement (there's a written agreement about the system, right?).

[slim]

He cannot simply get an easement because his dad has an easement. A written easement should have dimensions (i.e. X' wide by X' long) as opposed to simply 1.5" water line. If the easement is wide enough he should be able to put the line within the existing easement. The 1.5" waterline may or may not be large enough... he may need to replace said waterline with a larger waterline for both users.

Who owns and administers the easements? Is there a governing body for the water system with a board that sets ordinances? Is the water metered and if so where is the meter set?

[Tuckerman]

If he needs an easement to install his pipe and I am a dick and don't grant (or sell) him one can he use his dads pipe to get water to his property?

Lease it to him.

[irul&ublo]

you have to read the easement language to detremine whether an additional pipe can be laid accross your property. If equivocal, it may depend on what extent putting in a second pipe would burden your property.

If he taps off dad's on dad's property, I don't see how that would effect the burden on your property.

[GeezerSteve]

Answering your question would require one to interpret and construe the existing express easement in light of applicable law. An experienced real estate attorney should be able review the easement document and to answer your question for a modest fee.

[Nobody Famous]

He cannot simply get an easement because his dad has an easement. A written easement should have dimensions (i.e. X' wide by X' long) as opposed to simply 1.5" water line. If the easement is wide enough he should be able to put the line within the existing easement. The 1.5" waterline may or may not be large enough... he may need to replace said waterline with a larger waterline for both users.

What he said. The existence of one easement does not insure that another one may be created. Unless of course it specifies just that in the existing easement.

The dick son may be confusing his right to use the existing easement, (say for putting in a new larger line, or for having two pipes placed in the existing easement), with granting him a new easement.

You might engage the services of a good local surveyor for a quick survey and marking of the easements and also non-legal reading of the deed and restrictions. This may be a lot less expensive that using a lawyer. Also try reasoning with the dick son, to determine if him paying you for a new easement is really less costly than using the existing one after factoring in everything, including clean up costs to open up the existing one.

[Danno]

you have to read the easement language to detremine whether an additional pipe can be laid accross your property. If equivocal, it may depend on what extent putting in a second pipe would burden your property.

Exactly. Start with the actual deed/contract granting the easement.

If he taps off dad's on dad's property, I don't see how that would effect the burden on your property.

It would seem that you could make an argument that the increased load on the pipe would increase maintenance/repair/replacement needs, thereby increasing the burden on his property.

[iceman]

I've never heard of a community water supply like that, what's the reason behind it?

In my neighborhood everybody just has their own well.

[GeezerSteve]

you have to read the easement language to detremine whether an additional pipe can be laid accross your property. If equivocal, it may depend on what extent putting in a second pipe would burden your property.

If he taps off dad's on dad's property, I don't see how that would effect the burden on your property.

These are generally sound observations. All easements "burden" the "burdened" property, and so the question is whether the increased burden is within the scope of the easement grant. In Washington (where I practice law), the issue would likely be resolved by first looking at the easement grantor's intention at the time of contracting, as such intention is manfiested in the easement grant document. The analysis may vary in other states.

This sort of analysis is bread and butter stuff for an experienced real estate attorney. My advice: get a lawyer.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Are you in Canada? If so things might be different there than in WA or the rest of the US.

Anyhow, I'd probably start by talking to the county/province planner and figure out just what the easement is before you spend coin on a lawyer. It may be that the neighbor’s ahole son is wrong or it may be that there is little you can do about it. Can't hurt to ask them what they think. He's gonna need to get some permits to do what is being suggested. Also you could call the utility that provides your water to get some clarification. I'm sure shit like this happens a lot.

In the end, besides his kid being a dick, is it really that big of a deal?

[timvwcom]

I've never heard of a community water supply like that, what's the reason behind it?

In my neighborhood everybody just has their own well.

Ice, these are actually common in certain areas of our suburbs... Far enough away from the Milwaukee system (Lake Michigan water) to not access it, small enough to not install their own municipal water system (Large volume wells w/water towers, etc), and enough density to make running lines less hassle than installing multiple wells. Think lots in the 1/2 to 1 acre category mostly.

They range from a couple/few neighbors who started with an informal arrangement in the 1960's, to a hundred plus users in an entire subdivision. The main benefit to each user is not having to maintain the entire system themselves well/well pump/pressure tank/iron filter (if any)... though most have individual water softeners in each home. The state regulates them as you would expect, more responsibility for water tests than individual homes, but fewer than large municipal systems.

[irul&ublo]

....An experienced real estate attorney should be able review the easement document and to answer your question for a modest fee.

BWWWWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Danno]

This sort of analysis is bread and butter stuff for an experienced real estate attorney. My advice: get a lawyer.

As an attorney who enjoyed the heck out of property law while a student, and generally remembers this stuff but doesn't practice it, I heartily agree with this suggestion.

[davep]

he needs an easement to install his pipe

This made me chuckle.

[RShea]

I've never heard of a community water supply like that, what's the reason behind it?

In my neighborhood everybody just has their own well.

So that say 2 or 4 wells could be drilled and the water stored in a tank and each house gets it's water from the community pipes. The advantage is spreading the well costs across more than 1 person, plus the risk of having a well run dry, with the community system (if there is a tank) it can meet the demand on higher use days by pumping water into the storage and allowing the wells to recover.

We had a 33 house water system with a single well then a well or 2 added as needed over the years in the neighborhood I grew up in. There was a lot with a burried railroad tank car for the storage and a pump house.

[iceman]

Yeah I guess it makes good sense, it's just not something I'd heard of before. I guess the only thing would be if there was a drought and one or more of the people insisted on watering the shit out of everything, I'd get kinda pissed off after a while.

[Stone-Free]

You might engage the services of a good local surveyor for a quick survey and marking of the easements and also non-legal reading of the deed and restrictions.

Thats the first place I'd start. You'll have a good understanding of the exact loctions, who can do what, and with what restrictions with that easement.

Beaver, is your property in some HOA or planned development?

[Beaver]

The property is rural and was developed 70 + years ago with no plan. The water system was putin by 3-4 families. It dams a small creek and diverts the water to the system. We have a legal water licence on the creek and te water users group manages the system. Over the years more families have been added to the system and it is now at or just over capacity. I don't notice that too much cause I am the lowest house on the system and have teh posr pressure and have never run outof water in the summer wheras when i turnon my washing machine and have a shower my neighbor (the dick)loses all pressure. The dick neighbor is currently tapped off his dad's pipe. I'm going to go home, find & read my leagal paperwork tonight prior to the meeting that we have tonight. They always turn into pissing matches.

[GeezerSteve]

Thats the first place I'd start. You'll have a good understanding of the exact loctions, who can do what, and with what restrictions with that easement.

Many, perhaps most, utility easements describe the easement corridor in general terms (e.g., "Grantor grants to Grantee an easement to construct and maintain an underground water line on the S 30 feet of . . . ") and the benefitted property(ies) as legal parcel(s), and so "exact locations" are usually not at issue in a case such as this. But that's impossible to ascertain here without first seeing the easement grant document.

Based on Beaver's OP, the threshold question appears to be whether the express easement grants his neighbor's kid an easement to run a new water line or, alternatively, to use the existing water source. While a good surveyor may have an informed opinion on the matter, in this case, the issue ought to be first reviewed by an attorney.

If there is an ambiguity in a legal description of the burdened and/or benefitted parcel, then a surveyor is the better party to initially address the situation, but that's not how I interpreted in Beaver's OP.

I routinely work with surveyors and, in my experience, surveyors and attorneys generally readily agree on how to divide the labor between them on these issues.

Re the "modest fee," I would typically charge 1 hour or less time to review the easement, talk to the client on the phone and utter an initial oral opinion (even if those tasks take more than one hour to perform). At my A-rate, that's $275 max, at my B-rate, that's $225 max. If the matter ripens into a dispute or a negotiation, then I would talk to the client about the additional charges. If the kid wants to do something that is not contemplated by the current easement, then it is common for the kid (i.e., the newly benefitted party) to pay the burdened property owner's legal fees and surveying fees.

I wish you luck, Beaver.

[Beaver]

Thanks Big Steve, I like being called "the kid" it makes me feel young again. After tonights water users group meeting I may talk to a lawyer just to find out how much of a dick I can legally be.

[iceman]

Thanks Big Steve, I like being called "the kid" it makes me feel young again. After tonights water users group meeting I may talk to a lawyer just to find out how much of a dick I can legally be.

Go big or go home.

[yonskion]

I was on a shared well, I did not like it. I told the other parties that I wanted off and was going my own way. They went nuts... it was difficult to reason with them until I hired a Lawyer. Now I have my own water and they can die for all I care.
Easements have to be re-written when changes are made. I would hire a Lawyer and tell the "Dickhead" to get ready and find some other way around your dirt!
It is not nice, but this is America... remeber the Kids song. This land is my land, this land ain't your land I have a shot gun and you ain't got one...ect
Get a lawyer it will be done, and peace will return to your home I promise. Oh Sorry your in Canukistan not sure about up there.

[GeezerSteve]

Thanks Big Steve, I like being called "the kid" it makes me feel young again. After tonights water users group meeting I may talk to a lawyer just to find out how much of a dick I can legally be.

Hey Beav, by "the kid," I was referring to the dickhead's son, not you. Ha.

I once represented a good guy in a dispute over an utility/access easement, and things got so ugly that there were death threats, a restraining order and an arrest by a county sheriff when the dick violated the RO. I've always questioned the notion of people carving up the earth and claiming exclusive ownership, even though helping people and businesses sort out the system of private ownership of real property has comprised >30% of my law practice over the past 21 years. I am thankful that I get to spend many days & nights each year in the wilderness, where there are no property lines, easements, covenants, deed restrictions or local utility districts. It's a nutty world.

Let me know how it turns out, Beaver. Best o' luck.

[Beaver]

I'd prefer not to have to be a dick but if he comes out beaking off as he usually does I want the ammo shut him down fast. If I have to be a dick to do it, so be it.