GPS

[LCC]

Who's got it?

I got piss ass lost in some canyons near Escalante last weekend by myself. As Aaron Ralstad (sp) thoughts went through my head, I thought to myself what could I have done to make sure this hadn't happened.

I came to these solutions.

1. Don't kick the map into the river.
2. Buy a GPS unit.

Now, I'm in the process of research, and I want some opinions.

1. What do you have, and do you like it. Why?
2. What would you do different if you were buying again.

The two models I am looking at are the Garmin eTrex Legend and the Vista.

Pretty much the same thing, but the Vista has an altimeter, more memory, and a digital compass for another $100. I've heard bad things about the compass and altimeter on these units compared with stand alone altimeters. But the Vista has 3 times the memory, but is that worth it? I know that GPS can have problems in canyons or heavy forest areas, but usually these types of places open up every now and then to get a bearing.

Ohh, I have pretty good map and compass skills.

Your opinions please...

PS - I made it out.

[tywhy]

i have the vista and it's awesome. I got it for christmas and have used it extensively ski touring, hiking, and on road trips. it's the best.

I really think the extra memory is worth it because if you buy a program from Map Source, or National Geographic there are several topo and detail grids that you can load into the GPS. I have the map source program myself and really like that also.

you can also save plannes routes, and tons of waypoints. I don't know quite how much I have saved on mine, but with the extra memory you can load several of your favorite destinations into the GPS and not have to worry about deleting and loading new ones for each trip. This is one cool little toy. I have the mountain bike mount for mine and it's awesome to map out bike trails as you ride them. well worth the money.

edit: oh yeah - the altimeter and comapss are sweet options too. the alitmeter offers a great topo relief of your trip as well as max/min elevations and total ascent and descent for the trip.

[Buzzworthy]

Let me do a bit or research, I have learned a crap load of GPS stuff for our sales conference next week in Park City (Westgate).

For the most part, and what I have seen from customers upgrading from one unit to another, that extra gadgets are mainly a selling point for a lesser quality GPS unit.

Ill be back.

[LCC]

Nevermind, I'm an impulse buyer.

I got a eTrex Legend. It was cheap, and new.

Total after rebate: $157 with overnight shipping.

[joshbu]

Extra weight, crappy tiny display, long acquire times, short battery life.

I have an eTrex Vista. It's actually most useful for finding stuff in Seattle. It doesn't work all that well in the mountains/forests and you still gotta have the compass and map in case your GPS batteries dies.

About the only time I carry it now is situations where whiteout is a possibility.

[Buzzworthy]

Hands down: Vista!!

24 MB vs 8 MB??? Easy one there.

Vista, and the extra features really are not costing you more, it is the data storage options.

Hint: To make sure you are getting WAAS (Real time differential corrected data), face south with an unobstructed view for best results when taking way points and critical point (also to find them again). The WAAS satellite sits low on the horizon (up 22 degrees). From our testing here in Cache Valley, WAAS is pretty good, but not there always. Basically the farther north you are the less WAAS may work for you.

But the Vista is the way I would go between the two choices.

[Buzzworthy]

Originally posted by LCC
Nevermind, I'm an impulse buyer.

I got a eTrex Legend. It was cheap, and new.

Total after rebate: $157 with overnight shipping.

Can you trade?? 8 MB for maps is nothing, you can fill that quick.

[backpack]

I have the original etrex, the bright yellow cheap one.

the batteries last a pretty long time, probably because it doesn't have the compass/altimeter (in case you didn't know, if you have a 4-way sattelite lock you can get your altitude and direction of travel without the extra hardware... of course if you lose your fix you're screwed)

At any rate, even with a USGS map, eTrex, and compass I got sort of lost in Escalante a few years back. I could see where I wanted to go and figured out where I was within probably 200 feet on the map, but so many of the side canyons looked the same that it was an ordeal finding our way back down to our camp.

[LCC]

Originally posted by Buzzworthy
Can you trade?? 8 MB for maps is nothing, you can fill that quick.

Na, I'm sticking with the smaller model. Money is pretty tight right now so I'm getting the best basic for the money. I still plan on carrying USGS topos for the area I am in per usual. I don't plan on putting many maps into it (software is $100+ per map area). Figure I've got a good entry level GPS, and as I learn and new technology comes out I'll upgrade then.

[Buzzworthy]

Originally posted by backpack
I have the original etrex, the bright yellow cheap one.

the batteries last a pretty long time, probably because it doesn't have the compass/altimeter (in case you didn't know, if you have a 4-way sattelite lock you can get your altitude and direction of travel without the extra hardware... of course if you lose your fix you're screwed)

At any rate, even with a USGS map, eTrex, and compass I got sort of lost in Escalante a few years back. I could see where I wanted to go and figured out where I was within probably 200 feet on the map, but so many of the side canyons looked the same that it was an ordeal finding our way back down to our camp.

Sounds like you may have lost WAAS signal, which gives an average of 1-3 Meter Accuarcy. Loose WAAS an then you are at autonomous data at a 10 Meter accuracy. 30 feet is alot to deal with in canyons like that.

Glad you made it out.

[Buzzworthy]

Originally posted by LCC
Na, I'm sticking with the smaller model. Money is pretty tight right now so I'm getting the best basic for the money. I still plan on carrying USGS topos for the area I am in per usual. I don't plan on putting many maps into it (software is $100+ per map area). Figure I've got a good entry level GPS, and as I learn and new technology comes out I'll upgrade then.

That is cool. You would be surprised at how the technology is getting better and better so freakin fast.

GPS up to my place June 5!!

[Red Baron]

Besides, when it comes down to it, how much money is it really worth to stop yourself from getting lost in one of the most remote parts of America???

LCC- Seriously, I know where you're coming from; I got waaay lost in Escalante back in my pre-GPS days. We ended up finding the river, and hiking up it until we found a known & signed trail.

I'm pumped up for my next 2 trips south; two weeks from today we'll be on a whitewater trip in Westwater Canyon outside Moab, then 2 weeks after that, I'm taking a canyoneering course at the ACA in Cedar City...

[zion zig zag]

I'm with you LCC. I've never downloaded a map into mine. The best thing i've found is to buy one of those see thru plastic UTM grids, grid out all of your maps, and then you can tell where you are with amazing accuracy. UTM is way easier to use then LAT/LNG imo. Once you know where you are, map and compass time again, way easier than trying to triangulate (although that is still a valid skill).

If I'm going somewhere really unfamiliar, I'll set a waypoint at the car, but I've never had to use it. This winter in the Uintas in low vis it made me feel better to know that I had that option.

[grrrr]

I've got an early Garmin(the big one), but I'm looking to replace it with one that fits in my radio pouch. Sizewise, it looks like the Rino would fit best. Anyone use one?

[LCC]

Here is where I got a lot of information from.

Seemed like a good source, lot's of reviews. Mostly, my coworker, fellow gear head helped me with the decision.

Also, if you look around on that sight, there are some links to some extremely cheap places to buy 'em.

[Telenater]

Can you actually get a good signal in those canyons? Anything you're getting must have some pretty ugly multipath interference.

[BobMc]

Mike,

I've got a Vista, it's saved my ass a couple times. I would highly recommend it over the Legend. With the 24mb storage capacity I can load the entire state of Utah topo map.

I'm not sure how tywhy loaded any other map than Garmin's. I've never tried it but everyone I've talked to tells me Garmins will only accept Garmin's maps.

If you do end up getting a Garmin I've got the topo CD if you'd like to use it.

BobMc

PS, You won't be able to get a satellite lock in most canyons with ANY GPS. But, it is quite useful once you are out of the canyon to find your way back to the car.

[char]

Sounds like you need to invest in a waterproof map first, then a GPS.

IMO, GPS is pretty much a thing of convience, it is not something that you want to rely on. 90% certain I'm preaching to choir though.

[Buzzworthy]

Originally posted by Telenater
Can you actually get a good signal in those canyons? Anything you're getting must have some pretty ugly multipath interference.

Mulitpath, good observation. That could REALLY mess up the data.

[LCC]

Thanks Bob, might have to take you up on that offer. At this time, I am using this as a training GPS unit, get to know the thing, etc, and then make the real purchase, sell this unit, or keep it as a spare. It will be used with maps and compass, more to reconfirm where I know I am than tell me.

Last weekend I was piss ass lost. Not that kind of lost where you are comfortable in getting out. The kind where you start to wonder how long it will take your friends to call search and rescue. I had already hiked what was expected to be that days hike (just shy of 2 miles) when I ran into trouble. Ever try to make it up a large slab climb with few holds... with a dog (ohh, I don't climb, ever). So I split off from my group, headed upstream and told them to meet me at another trail head in no more than 4 hours. I had about 8 miles of canyon hiking to go, I would have to hump it out. Well, I got tired and I made some pretty bad mistakes. I knew I would eventually make it out, as I was in a large canyon, but it had many tributaries. Going downstream in a canyon negates the tribs, going upstream and it gets complicated. It was like a real world labrynth, all streams being the same size. Walk 15 minutes, make a decision, walk 10 more, make another. When I came to a spot where 3 large canyons intersected I knew I was in trouble. So I sat down to comptimplate my decisions. I knew that they all led to the top, but where? How far away from my friends would I be? I got down on myself for making bad decisions, danger in these kinds of places.

Along came a group of hikers. I asked if that was the wash I was looking for. They said no. Sweet, at least I knew that. Anyway, even though it was a narrow canyon, we were at a confluence, one that allowed for their lead hiker to get a bearing with his GPS and show me exactly where I was on the map. They then gave me their extra map. For this I am very grateful. It saved my ass!

Right then and there I told myself no way in hell I was going to get caught in this situation again. Enter my new toy...

I made it to the wash to exit the canyon. My friends met me 15 minutes shy of the car and where amazed I made it as far as I did. I pulled those miles in 3.5 hours. Yes, I was moving. I drank just shy of 150 ounces of water since I had last seen them. Did I mention Escalante is a tad on the dry side?

This also goes to show that experienced backpackers can make bad decisions under strange circumstances. Those who have backpacked with me know I don't take unnecessary risks, and I remain pretty caluclated all the time in the backcountry. This was not a difficult hike, its even a popular one that I am sure many people on this board have done in the past. However, I really don't think my mind was in it that day for some reason.

Be careful out there!

[edg]

Stopped readings posts after the '8mb' for maps comment' but I ask - why do you need maps? You can perfectly suitable directions using waypoints in conjunction with a real map - and those National Geographic water-proof map stations at REI stores are cheat and effective. If all you are looking for (as most people are with GPS) is to find out where you ARE, and not necessarily where you want to go, you can get some really good deal (I myself have my eye on a Gecko)

edg

[Twoplanker]

GPS is good, but it can be a dangerous crutch.

Last summer, my dad got lost in the desert in Utah at night. He was using a new GPS. Because it was dark, he could no longer check landmarks visually with the waypoints he had set on the GPS during the day. He trusted his waypoints and followed one of them all night only to discover that he had fucked up the waypoint notation and it was the wrong one. Come dawn, he was at the wrong location miles away from his truck, out of water, exhausted, and dying. (there's a thread on the bb somewhere about this...)

He survived, but just barely. Severe dehydration, both kidneys failed, convulsions, delusions, the whole bit. Spent a couple of days in the hospital because he was using a navigational device that he was unfamaliar with. He is not a wilderness JONG, and if he had trusted his instincts he would not have gotten into that mess.

Use GPS, but not as a substitute for a good magnetic compass and common sense!

[Buzzworthy]

Originally posted by Twoplanker
GPS is good, but it can be a dangerous crutch.

Last summer, my dad got lost in the desert in Utah at night. He was using a new GPS. Because it was dark, he could no longer check landmarks visually with the waypoints he had set on the GPS during the day. He trusted his waypoints and followed one of them all night only to discover that he had fucked up the waypoint notation and it was the wrong one. Come dawn, he was at the wrong location miles away from his truck, out of water, exhausted, and dying. (there's a thread on the bb somewhere about this...)

He survived, but just barely. Severe dehydration, both kidneys failed, convulsions, delusions, the whole bit. Spent a couple of days in the hospital because he was using a navigational device that he was unfamaliar with. He is not a wilderness JONG, and if he had trusted his instincts he would not have gotten into that mess.

Use GPS, but not as a substitute for a good magnetic compass and common sense!

Thread was started August 22, 2003. I saved it to Word. Damn scary.

edit: check your email

[L7]

Originally posted by LCC


PS - I made it out.

I thought you were still in the canyon and found a way to post.

I have a Garmin 12 or something. 12 channel at any rate and that's key that you can pick up the signals are seperate channnels for much quicker fixes. You can't download maps into mine but it works great for simple tasks. Newer ones I'm sure are simpler to use. Garmin makes a great product, it's been tough and dependable. Can't say much about newer ones or other brands.

[Dr. Crash]

What about that good ole fashioned compass that works regardless of batteries?

The two reasons I'd want a GPS would be 1/ total whiteout, and 2/ to plot my trip of the day back at home. But from joshbu's experience with his Vista, option 2 is out on those little battery burners.

BTW when you look at the number of channels, what matter is the number of simultaneous channels. Some GPS units will have many channels but cycle through a lower number and acquisition sucks ass then too.

drC