Pieps DSP - (apparently) iPhone related failure mode

[Jonathan S.]

The mark/isolate function seems flukey and today while standing still, the numeric dispay was all over the place. From 62 to 67 and back again w/o changing orientation.

My experience with the DSP is that its mark/isolate function is not as reliable as the S1 and Pulse, but Pieps claims that the competition's greater reliability for that function comes with some drawbacks, which I've verified in some interesting tests.
As for the 62 <> 67 behavior, given that those readings were on the very outer edge of the receive range, I think any beacon with a digital distance readout can experience that problem. (But then again, since you're going back to a single-antenna beacon with no digital processing, my point there is moot from your perspective.)

[SchralphMacchio]

This is a thread drift, but now I am curious:

What beacons have both digital and "analog" modes?
What beacons that have both modes actually have a volume controller to assist with analog searches?

[Jonathan S.]

What beacons that have both modes actually have a volume controller to assist with analog searches?

Barryvox Opto 3000 (discontinued)
Barryvox Pulse
Ortovox S1
ARVA A.D.vanced
ARVA 3 Axes

In addition, the Ortovox Patroller/X1 starts off in analog then switches to digital with directional indicators, but the switchover point is automated and the analog mode has no volume/sensitivity control.
The Ortovox M1/M2 has analog acoustics with volume/sensitivity control, and simultaneously displays a digital distance readout and fluxline indicator, but with only one antenna, it's incapable of providing directional indicators (i.e., it's kind of a simultaneous analog/digital hybrid).

[sparkletarte.]

My attempt (from my upcoming review) follows below.

****
Alternatively, the Pulse can be switched over into an “Analog” backup mode, whose exact behavior depends on user programming. I put “Analog” in quotes because with a 180-degree rotating arrow and no spikes/nulls in the pinpointing phase, the Pulse is still using all three of its antennas and digital processing: the difference is that the signal separation and hence marking/masking is turned off, as well as the forward/backwards capability of the rotating arrow. Combined with full sensitivity control and even a multiple-burial indicator, even if the Pulse had only this backup mode and not its regular mode, its design would be an impressive technological accomplishment. The Pulse can also be switched into a pure analog mode that shuts down the display entirely and receives on only one antenna.

If the preceding paragraph is completely overwhelming to you, then rest assured that you need never use “Analog” mode or ever be concerned about it.

I get it. I'm wondering if an option is to transmit in pure analog (which is when it would be near the magnets) and then when you are searching you could switch it to dig, as at that time it might (?) be farther away from the magnets. That may be too much hassle in a pressure situation though, I can't say since I haven't used the Pulse or had to do a real life rescue.

Thinking aloud... The magnets make them turn on/off, so if it was on pure analog, how do the magnets not make it turn on/off, because wouldn't the on/off switch be the same? Or to change it to analog do you turn if off and on again (turning on in a dif way)? A friend has one, I need to play with it.

I suddenly realized that my tool, which I keep in a pocket near my beacon, has a magnetic feature to keep the bits in the socket (**something else to think about any riders out there that carry a tool in their jackets**).

Glad I have analog but I want to upgrade to ... something ... it might be a new jacket.

[Jonathan S.]

All beacons -- digital or analog, single antenna or multiple -- transmit identically. (Well, except for the continous carrier on the F1, but that's another story unrelated to digital vs. analog.)

Regarding the magnetic effect of somehow turning off a beacon, personally I've never been able to replicate anything like that. (The closest I've come is that ARVA beacons can be turned *on* by placing a magnet near where the little clip part is inserted, because all the little clip part is doing is placing a magnet against the housing.)

By contrast, both the Pulse and S1 use an internal compass to assist in searching, so a nearby magnet could potentially cause problems there.

The analog mode on both the S1 and Pulse are accessed fairly quickly (i.e., a few seconds) during a search (if you're familiar with how to access it, that is). The analog mode in the Barryvox Opto 3000 (discontinued), ARVA A.D.vanced, and ARVA 3 Axes is accessed within oh, maybe half a second or so.

BTW, the menu mode in the S1 is easily accessed, but the menu mode in the Pulse requires turning the beacon off and then back. (So if, to take an odd example, a searcher using a Pulse reaching the pinpointing phase, and decides to change either of the two parameters specific to the pinpointing phase, switching any setting would take up far too much time during a search.)

[Jonathan S.]

- I left the iPhone in close proximity to each DSP for a several minutes. Within a short time, each unit rebooted.

Must be related to this:
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...d.php?t=147116

[bfr]

Regarding the magnetic effect of somehow turning off a beacon, personally I've never been able to replicate anything like that.

I was a little skeptical about this so thought I'd do my own testing of my transceivers.

I just took the most powerful magnets I could find around the house (some "rocks" the kids play with--they are strong enough to attract another and slide it across the table from about 3"--certainly stronger than anything likely to be used as a clothing accessory). I attempted to affect the function of both the Mammut Barryvox Opto 3000 and the Mammut Barryvox Pulse.

The Pulse was immune to all of my attempts...both in Send and Search modes (which are selected physically by moving the switch). I also could not turn it on when the switch was in the Off position.

The Opto 3000 however, could be affected very easily in both Send, Search and even when Off.

With the Opto 3000 switch physically in the off position, it could be turned on using the magnets...and would remain on as long as the magnets stayed in close proximity. With the unit in Send mode it could be made to stop transmitting (the blinking lights would go off). Once the magnets were moved a few inches away...the Send mode/blinking would return...or if when moving them away, they were swiped a little bit...the transceiver would restart, going through the battery check and all before returning to send mode. In the Search mode, the magnets could turn the unit off when held close. Once moved away the Opto 3000 would go back through the power up phase and would go into Send mode. You'd have to do the 3 Presses again to get back to Search mode. The "sweet" spot for all of these influences was the upper left side of the unit

Personally I am not really concerned...I don't have magnets in my clothing. I prefer the Opto 3000 for its small size and excellent performance. I will see if I can get any whacked out results from my iPhone next.

[Tye 1on]

just a PBR fueled thought...these tests are great, but is it possible we could mess up a transceiver by doing magnet or other interference tests?
Figure it shouldn't be a problem, but then again the new digi beacons are way more advanced...kinda like a Toureg compared to an International Scout II.

[bfr]

With my Barryvox transceivers, iPhone influences were very minimal. The influences were the same whether the phone was in Airplane mode (wifi and cellular functions turned off) or not. The same influences were possible using a similarly sized digital camera which was turned off. Which basically leads me to believe/confirm what others have noted...that anything flat and metal is best kept away from the transceiver. Blocking a transceiver in Send mode was difficult to say the least. The signal gets out...maybe attenuated slightly...but only very slightly. A transceiver in search mode could be slightly less sensitive IF the phone or camera was stacked directly on top of or behind the searching device. When held away from the body on its own, as would be typical in a search...none of these reductions in sensitivity would likely happen.

So my take-aways from these tests: Don't stack the iPhone or a camera or anything flat and metal onto the transceiver. Not sure how you'd do this anyway with the beacon in the harness. Probably best to keep phones or cameras in a pocket furthest from the beacon if possible. Next time I'm out practicing/teaching beacon skills, I will see if I can sense any adverse effects from longer distances, with phones in the target backpack with beacon, etc.

[bfr]

I thought about the messing up with the magnet thing before doing it...and dismissed it. While I suppose it certainly is possible to whack something out, especially with a poorly designed product, I made the assumption that the devices could handle it. My experience in my former life was with wireless data, especially 900MHz radios. I always found them to be pretty hardy. Worst thing would be power anomalies rather than EMF influences. As a side note, I will do a little more thorough beacon test on all these units next time I use them...just to be sure. Thxs for the PBR thought.

[sparkletarte.]

I don't understand why tranceiver makers can't use a different type of switch aside from a magnet. There's other equipment that needs to be waterproof, shirley they don't all use magnets. And with seemingly everyone and their dog, except me and mine, having a cell and an ipod, you'd think they'd come up with a way to better deal with em interference. They at least need to put more prominent warnings in their manuals, since these problems seem to come as a surprise to most people.

[SchralphMacchio]

bump5678

[Zesty Not Spicy]

Thanks for the bump SM. I have an older DSP that I've had for years with no issues but more recently switched to an iphone. A couple weeks ago I had this same problem with it resetting and couldn't figure it out. I had thought that you mainly just needed to make sure they were at least 6+ inches apart (shows what I know). Still kinda surprised this has been such a known problem for so long. Sucks because taking a look at a google satellite image in the backcountry can be a really convenient route finding crutch.

[SchralphMacchio]

^ Zesty, you may want to see if this was addressed in a firmware update available from PIEPS

[Zesty Not Spicy]

Yeah, already on it. I'm still on V2.8 so I plan on swinging by the local tech service center to see what they say.

[SDW]

Beacons and other electronics generally don't get along at a close distance. A this point, it is pretty well established. Not brand specific, and not specific to the interfering electronic device.

Turn your other devices off, or if you need them (patrollers and guides with radios) keep them away from your beacon.

Simple stuff.

[ILOVE2SKI]

^ Zesty, you may want to see if this was addressed in a firmware update available from PIEPS

Any ideas?

[cycology1]

Wasn't a burried dude in europe just found via cell signal? sure if he had a beacon...but seems that mass communication to beacon users is appropriate. Does a new step in pre tour protocol / discussion have to be had for iphoners? Haven't researched yet though...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TGR Forums

[TBS]

Wasn't a burried dude in europe just found via cell signal? sure if he had a beacon...but seems that mass communication to beacon users is appropriate. Does a new step in pre tour protocol / discussion have to be had for iphoners? Haven't researched yet though...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using TGR Forums

Are you thinking of this? http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...-4-hour-burial

Something isn't right with this story. He wears an airbag but not a beacon?

Beacons and other electronics generally don't get along at a close distance. A this point, it is pretty well established. Not brand specific, and not specific to the interfering electronic device.

Turn your other devices off, or if you need them (patrollers and guides with radios) keep them away from your beacon.

Simple stuff.

This. Latest research sez keep your beacon at least 24" away from other electronic devices - smartphones, mp3 players, cameras, GPS, headlamps, goggles with fans and head-up displays, gopros/contours, illuminated makeup mirrors, vibrating butt plugs, or whatever else has a battery.

And shut them off when in avy terrain, especially if you are searching. Your attention should be focused on rescue anyway - no time for phat tunes, photo ops, gopro footie, tweeting your posse (OMG!! BFF @NAME is buried in a #avalanche! ) checking your look or pursuing sexual release.

[Skihuckster]

Right. And make sure your bros (or hos) turn off their electronics too. Last thing you want going though your head when buried in a debris field is "I hope that dingleberry's ability to receive texts isn't leading his beacon away from me"

For grins one day we buried a beacon and searched for it with F1s, S1s, trackers, dsps, and pulses. The guys with live phones on their person got sidetracked about 50% of the time, then their beacon would zero in again and work.

And to respond to some of those comments of people getting found by their cell phone (recco): those are body recovery devices and they work just fine if your phone is off.

And who really needs a phone in the BC anyway? False sense of security and annoying as fuck when you're trying to enjoy nature and someone's girlfriend checks in. 9 times out of ten if you're calling for help your friend will be dead by the time help arrives, so what's a 4h delay for you to hike out? Better to know how to rescue than to assume you'll be rescued, IMO