Quiver Killer Mounting

[unclebill]

Im in the same boat. I found that the phillips drive fasteners found on most binders tend to strip over time, since they're made of SS. So I swapped them out for Torx drive which has improved ease of swapping dramatically.

Using the regular binding screws in the inserts could also cause a problem when swapping.

[Spyderjon]

Using the regular binding screws in the inserts could also cause a problem when swapping.

Regular binding screws must NOT be used in inserts as they'll ruin the inserts.

[galibier_numero_un]

Regular binding screws must NOT be used in inserts as they'll ruin the inserts.

Good catch. I was focused on comments about Phillips, vs. Posi-Drive vs. Torx. I couldn't believe anyone would consider mashing a standard binding screw into an M5 thread.

... Thom

[unclebill]

Good catch. I was focused on comments about Phillips, vs. Posi-Drive vs. Torx. I couldn't believe anyone would consider mashing a standard binding screw into an M5 thread.

... Thom

Yes I was shaking my head too about what you said there, putting the blame on the drive type and stainless steel.

[tdpdx]

I feel like if I was the designer for these, or spec'ing the hardware kits, I would default on T25 regardless, less likelihood of stripping, and drivers are more common than pozi drive. Also: I am pretty sure that BF ships with Pozi's but QK are just standard #2 drive.

I've always used BF and didn't know this. QK going with #2 philips is the MOST confusing decision they could have made.

And agreed on Torx, I now have three sets of bits that all look like phillips but aren't

[eSock]

Is it ok to put two different QK'd bindings on a ski? I asked a shop about it and they said it was a bad idea (mostly for potential hole conflicts/being too close), but assuming that wasn't the case, is it ok to have exposed QK holes on a ski you're using?

For my actual use case it would be pivot look 12s and moment voyagers

[davjr96]

I've got a pair of skis with 3 different bindings QK. Haven't died. As long as the holes don't conflict you should be fine. The expoxy + QK should keep water from getting into the ski just like a plug would.

[HAB]

Is it ok to put two different QK'd bindings on a ski? I asked a shop about it and they said it was a bad idea (mostly for potential hole conflicts/being too close), but assuming that wasn't the case, is it ok to have exposed QK holes on a ski you're using?

For my actual use case it would be pivot look 12s and moment voyagers

Yeah, if you can make the hole pattern work it's game on. They're blind holes, it's not like the core of the ski is going to be exposed if you don't have a screw in there.

[eSock]

As a non-binding-installer, are there any resources out there to find out if those two bindings would conflict? or a kind soul that knows enough to tell me one way or the other?

[TexasGortex]

As a non-binding-installer, are there any resources out there to find out if those two bindings would conflict? or a kind soul that knows enough to tell me one way or the other?

I’ve always just printed out a couple paper templates and played around with them to see what works

[rfconroy]

Is it ok to put two different QK'd bindings on a ski? I asked a shop about it and they said it was a bad idea (mostly for potential hole conflicts/being too close), but assuming that wasn't the case, is it ok to have exposed QK holes on a ski you're using?

For my actual use case it would be pivot look 12s and moment voyagers

What shop told you that?? Sounds like a lack of understanding what's going on there... That's like 1/3 the reason to run inserts on skis....

They're stainless steel inserts, that are blind tapped so there shouldnt be any issue with the extra holes being left open.

As long as you're maintaining 10-12mm center to center on a standard wood core ski, you should be fine. One thing of note: if you're mounting a new pair of skis, a company will consider that your "second mount" which voids any warranty.

[rfconroy]

As a non-binding-installer, are there any resources out there to find out if those two bindings would conflict? or a kind soul that knows enough to tell me one way or the other?

There's a binding compare template you can find online, but it doesnt include ATK. I've got both binding templates mocked up in CAD. What BSLs do you need? I can do an overlay for you.

[DarthMarkus]

I have a few skis that I have inserts in for multiple bindings. Consider that you're putting in a sealed stainless steel insert into the ski, not a helicoil. I think you could probably do more mounts than a traditional mount given that the "old" holes are still plugged with a metal insert, not a plastic plug.

As for hole conflicts, a couple things to consider:

1) are you okay mounting one of your bindings + or - from your recommended mark? Usually makes life easier if so.

2) knowing how much your binding can adjust is helpful in dodging the heel pattern from the previous binding.

3) don't drill the holes until you have both screw patterns marked with a grease pencil. If you're too close, small adjustments can go a long way. I've had a few times where moving one binding heel +.5cm and the other heel -.5cm solved my issue easily. Same can be done with the toe, but it'll change where you land on the recommended line.

4) getting access to an actual jig can speed the process up considerably, even if you don't use it to drill. Slight adjustments can be accounted for by marking the toe pattern for your correct bsl, shortening or lengthening the heel to dodge the other heel, then realign the toe onto the marks.

Someone with some experience in the shop should know a number of these things if they've had to remount some skis. Some of the best luck I've had is taking my 305mm bsl, adjusting the jig for the first mount to 310mm, then adjust the jig to 300mm for the second mount. Should get your midsole very close to the line for both bindings.

Last thing I'll add, is that putting the inserts in sucks and eats up a lot of time. Pace your beers in the beginning while measuring, then up your pace once you're tapping and smearing epoxy.

[eSock]

What shop told you that?? Sounds like a lack of understanding what's going on there... That's like 1/3 the reason to run inserts on skis....

They're stainless steel inserts, that are blind tapped so there shouldnt be any issue with the extra holes being left open.

As long as you're maintaining 10-12mm center to center on a standard wood core ski, you should be fine. One thing of note: if you're mounting a new pair of skis, a company will consider that your "second mount" which voids any warranty.

Yeah seemed like a strange response, the hole collision issue makes sense but I thought it was weird to worry about water getting into the ski via the 'exposed' holes. I was like, I guess QKs are for multiple skis using one binding instead of being interchangeable...?

There's a binding compare template you can find online, but it doesnt include ATK. I've got both binding templates mocked up in CAD. What BSLs do you need? I can do an overlay for you.

That's very much appreciated! They'd be for 322mm BSL boots

[JayPowHound]

I'd venture to say that at least half of the reason inserts were created was to run multiple sets of bindings on the same ski.

Line up your holes and go for it!

[rfconroy]

That's very much appreciated! They'd be for 322mm BSL boots

Ill give you an update by tomorrow, shoot me a PM if I forget.

[Toddball]

Anyone have an idea of how tight the tolerance of insert placement relative to mount pattern needs to be (AFTER the epoxy is cured...I understand that the insert can float around in the ski a little before the epoxy sets)?

I have a ski that is currently mounted, sans inserts, with Salomon MTN bindings, which have a 40mm wide x 38mm long toe pattern. I am interested in putting inserts in the MTN mount, as well as adding a mount for 22Designs Lynx, which is a 6-hole pattern with 38mm between nearest neighbors. For my tele boot to be where I want it to be, it looks like I need to overlap front four holes of the Lynx pattern with the MTN toe pattern.

So the question becomes, can I place four inserts in such a way that both the MTN toe (nominally 40mm x 38mm) and the Lynx toe (nominally 38mm x 38mm) will install in those four inserts? My instinct is that it could work, based on how I have seemed to fuck up previous insert mounts, only to find that the bindings installed okay. If I could accurately place inserts in a 39mm x 38mm pattern, each insert would be 0.5mm off of where it should be for either binding.

Or should I just mount the tele bindings at true center and ski switch to the road?

[HAB]

Anyone have an idea of how tight the tolerance of insert placement relative to mount pattern needs to be (AFTER the epoxy is cured...I understand that the insert can float around in the ski a little before the epoxy sets)?

I have a ski that is currently mounted, sans inserts, with Salomon MTN bindings, which have a 40mm wide x 38mm long toe pattern. I am interested in putting inserts in the MTN mount, as well as adding a mount for 22Designs Lynx, which is a 6-hole pattern with 38mm between nearest neighbors. For my tele boot to be where I want it to be, it looks like I need to overlap front four holes of the Lynx pattern with the MTN toe pattern.

So the question becomes, can I place four inserts in such a way that both the MTN toe (nominally 40mm x 38mm) and the Lynx toe (nominally 38mm x 38mm) will install in those four inserts? My instinct is that it could work, based on how I have seemed to fuck up previous insert mounts, only to find that the bindings installed okay. If I could accurately place inserts in a 39mm x 38mm pattern, each insert would be 0.5mm off of where it should be for either binding.

Or should I just mount the tele bindings at true center and ski switch to the road?

I forget what MTNs use and don't know shit about tele stuff, but do those use countersunk or low head screws? The latter will be a little more forgiving to misplacement. But yeah, if you put inserts at 38x39 you can probably make them work. It'll just be a little annoying to mount.

[Toddball]

I forget what MTNs use and don't know shit about tele stuff, but do those use countersunk or low head screws? The latter will be a little more forgiving to misplacement. But yeah, if you put inserts at 38x39 you can probably make them work. It'll just be a little annoying to mount.

Good point on screw heads. Binding Freedom lists the MTNs as flat-head (i.e. countersunk) and 22D bindings as low-head. The 22D binding screws actually have a shoulder that goes through the binding base, though:

[galibier_numero_un]

Is it ok to put two different QK'd bindings on a ski? I asked a shop about it and they said it was a bad idea (mostly for potential hole conflicts/being too close), but assuming that wasn't the case, is it ok to have exposed QK holes on a ski you're using?

For my actual use case it would be pivot look 12s and moment voyagers

Apart from the person you spoke with being incompetent, yes to two mounts. This raises a related topic about whom you'd trust with your skis for an insert mount.

Regarding Pivot/Raider (Voyager) overlap, it works for the same BSL and mount point.

Different boots for Pivots and Raider 12s would change this, of course.

I'll post my results later this evening when I'm at my laptop. My drawing is for last year's Raiders with the wide mounting footprint (toe). It should be the same as the Voyagers.

... Thom

[rfconroy]

looks like you'll have some impacts if you mount on center for both bindings, but if you offset the pivot by 12mm forward of the ATK you should be in the clear.

[Gunder]

Over the years, I have mounted thousands of skis with the inserts. I like to use them on skis we use for catalog shoots, as I can install inserts in all of the skis, and then pack a ski bag with 10 pairs of skis and then only bring a set or two of bindings on a shoot.

A few things I have learned over the years are:
Always check the alignment first using a proper Alpine center punch in the correct jigs, to check hole placement. You need at least a cm between each hole without causing unnecessary complications. This is the most accurate way to check hole positions. It also ensures that your pilot bit is in perfect alignment with the jig... especially when drilling metal skis.


Never attempt to mount inserts without a proper jig. The tolerances with the machine screws and the inserts are way tighter than standard alpine screws, so they need to be spot on. When mounting, I center the jig, center punch it, then pre drill with a standard alpine drill, then I use the SVST step bit for the inserts to drill them to size. Do not try to skip the pre-drill as its too much material for the insert step drill to take in one pass. Before, SVST made the proper step drill, I used to use a standard drill with a drill stop collar attached, with another behind it as backup.


Next I like to use a vacuum to remove the chips from the holes. Compressed air works to, but it's messy.

It is essential that the holes then get countersunk. This helps guide the tap in straight, but all provides a much cleaner looking install. The correct one is a piloted weldon style counter sink. Its a 82 degree, P#11


I then start the taps for each hole using a 5/16-18 tapered tap. I then follow it up with the 5/16-18 bottom tap to ensure the threads go full depth. Dont use a standard hardware store tap. Those are actually called plug taps and are in between the tapper and the bottoming tap, and quite frankly just suck all around. Also, its really worth investing in a proper tap handle. All of the hardware store ones are garbage and will never hold a tap solid for any period of time. The Starrett 93-B tap handles are the cream of the crop for most tap sizes and are well worth the investment. When tapping, I like to re-align the jig, and tap directly through it, as that ensures the taps are perfectly perpendicular to the ski.


Most people use epoxy for the inserts. If you use it, make sure it's a thin epoxy. JB weld and the like are way to thick for this usage and it will make it way harder to properly install the inserts. I have actually switched over to using an industrial grade Cyanoacrylate glue. This stuff is super glue on steroids. Its super strong, thin and cures very quickly using the activator. I like the 2p-10 "thick" version that is distributed by FastCap.


The SVST insert tool is nice, but quite frankly its made of soft steel, and after 20 or so sets of skis, its toast and needs to be replaced. Festool makes a "centrotec"holder that is by far the best driver I have found for holding the insert tool or any other ¼" hex bit. It holds them as solid as a dedicated screw driver.


However, what I found that has actually worked the best over the years, is to take a standard flat screwdriver, and then grind the tip down, so it fits into the inserts and uses the shoulder to drive them in....that might be the only good use for a shitty craftsman screwdriver. If you have not tried Wera or PBSwiss screwdrivers, you are missing out on what its like to never, ever strip a screw.



Finally it is imperative to use the correct type of screw for the binding you are mounting, in addition to the correct length, you need to use the proper head, low, small or flat for the bindings you are mounting. I really like the posi-drive ones made by SVST, as the heads are quite a bit stronger than standard hardware store grade metric machine screws. Plus the SVST ones also have anti-rotation notches on the heads to help prevent them from backing out. Its worth noting that the "small" head version is no longer made, so I try my best to not loose any of them.


Finally, always make sure you are using either blue loctight, or preferably, Vibra-tite VC-3. I like the vibra-tite as it doesn't gunk up the holes with crystalized glue like the standard blue lock tight does.

[galibier_numero_un]

^^^ some great stuff, @Gunder. I rarely learn anything new in these mounting threads ^^^

Apart from the person you spoke with being incompetent, yes to two mounts. This raises a related topic about whom you'd trust with your skis for an insert mount.

Regarding Pivot/Raider (Voyager) overlap, it works for the same BSL and mount point.

Different boots for Pivots and Raider 12s would change this, of course.

I'll post my results later this evening when I'm at my laptop. My drawing is for last year's Raiders with the wide mounting footprint (toe). It should be the same as the Voyagers.

... Thom

Here's what I came up with. Obviously, there's no issue at the heel, so I omitted the Raider heel. I'm not sure how @rfconroy came up with his results. I don't have any Pivots lying around to re-check my Pivot drawing.

This drawing is for last year's Raider-12. I just completed and verified the mount. It's all the more reason you shouldn't trust any of us

... Thom

[Westcoaster]

Over the years, I have mounted thousands of skis with the inserts. I like to use them on skis we use for catalog shoots, as I can install inserts in all of the skis, and then pack a ski bag with 10 pairs of skis and then only bring a set or two of bindings on a shoot.

A few things I have learned over the years are:
Always check the alignment first using a proper Alpine center punch in the correct jigs, to check hole placement. You need at least a cm between each hole without causing unnecessary complications. This is the most accurate way to check hole positions. It also ensures that your pilot bit is in perfect alignment with the jig... especially when drilling metal skis.


Never attempt to mount inserts without a proper jig. The tolerances with the machine screws and the inserts are way tighter than standard alpine screws, so they need to be spot on. When mounting, I center the jig, center punch it, then pre drill with a standard alpine drill, then I use the SVST step bit for the inserts to drill them to size. Do not try to skip the pre-drill as its too much material for the insert step drill to take in one pass. Before, SVST made the proper step drill, I used to use a standard drill with a drill stop collar attached, with another behind it as backup.


Next I like to use a vacuum to remove the chips from the holes. Compressed air works to, but it's messy.

It is essential that the holes then get countersunk. This helps guide the tap in straight, but all provides a much cleaner looking install. The correct one is a piloted weldon style counter sink. Its a 82 degree, P#11


I then start the taps for each hole using a 5/16-18 tapered tap. I then follow it up with the 5/16-18 bottom tap to ensure the threads go full depth. Dont use a standard hardware store tap. Those are actually called plug taps and are in between the tapper and the bottoming tap, and quite frankly just suck all around. Also, its really worth investing in a proper tap handle. All of the hardware store ones are garbage and will never hold a tap solid for any period of time. The Starrett 93-B tap handles are the cream of the crop for most tap sizes and are well worth the investment. When tapping, I like to re-align the jig, and tap directly through it, as that ensures the taps are perfectly perpendicular to the ski.


Most people use epoxy for the inserts. If you use it, make sure it's a thin epoxy. JB weld and the like are way to thick for this usage and it will make it way harder to properly install the inserts. I have actually switched over to using an industrial grade Cyanoacrylate glue. This stuff is super glue on steroids. Its super strong, thin and cures very quickly using the activator. I like the 2p-10 "thick" version that is distributed by FastCap.


The SVST insert tool is nice, but quite frankly its made of soft steel, and after 20 or so sets of skis, its toast and needs to be replaced. Festool makes a "centrotec"holder that is by far the best driver I have found for holding the insert tool or any other ¼" hex bit. It holds them as solid as a dedicated screw driver.


However, what I found that has actually worked the best over the years, is to take a standard flat screwdriver, and then grind the tip down, so it fits into the inserts and uses the shoulder to drive them in....that might be the only good use for a shitty craftsman screwdriver. If you have not tried Wera or PBSwiss screwdrivers, you are missing out on what its like to never, ever strip a screw.



Finally it is imperative to use the correct type of screw for the binding you are mounting, in addition to the correct length, you need to use the proper head, low, small or flat for the bindings you are mounting. I really like the posi-drive ones made by SVST, as the heads are quite a bit stronger than standard hardware store grade metric machine screws. Plus the SVST ones also have anti-rotation notches on the heads to help prevent them from backing out. Its worth noting that the "small" head version is no longer made, so I try my best to not loose any of them.


Finally, always make sure you are using either blue loctight, or preferably, Vibra-tite VC-3. I like the vibra-tite as it doesn't gunk up the holes with crystalized glue like the standard blue lock tight does.

Damn, legit.

[stealurface831]

Excellent shit as always, Gunder. The only thing I will add is, if you have one at your disposal, use a drill press both for the drilling and tapping. Probably overkill if you are using a jig but in the past, I used paper templates in conjunction with my drill press and never had any issues.