JACKSON 2022/23 {Tetons, Snakes, Gros Ventre, Winds, Wyoming Range, etc.)

[schwerty]

Thanks for the furry creature shot UAN!
And all the skiing pics too of course.

[upallnight]

I'm just a caveman. Your snow science world frightens and confuses me. Always thought the trickle was the ticket. But now that PWL is reacting again. Why? Best I can come up with is warmer weather as it was so cold there for a while. This seems to be the main change. What's the real answer?

The new reports are really cool to read btw, kudos to all involved

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Sometimes layers truly go away (transformation, for example), but generally (my take) we fare so well because we get enough snow to *bury* layers. Areas without snowfall as abundant as ours typically is deal with problem layers for longer periods of time.

My take is the party in the slide mentioned earlier is the group was skiing a line that almost never gets skied (no skier compaction), is hard to get eyes on (we don't have as much knowledge of the surface underneath, where there are cliff bands, etc), and also gets hammered by wind so is subject to varying snow depths.

Hit a shallow spot and that "PWL" is not under 2 meters of snow but 30cm — boom.

Reminds me of the Olive Oyl slide a year or 2 ago — shallow spot triggers something bigger.

That's my hot take.

PWL should never (rarely) be completely off backcountry travelers' radar — that's only when you are in a place where you know you are unlikely to affect it (e.g., 1.5m deep when you're riding fat skis with smooth technique).

[this is a nuanced conversation that goes well beyond what I've written above — just writing a couple thoughts to add to the discussion and give some insight into how I frame it. there's a LOT more to it and that factors into my decision-making.]

Thanks for the furry creature shot UAN!
And all the skiing pics too of course.

[swimmy]

Areas without snowfall as abundant as ours typically is deal with problem layers for longer periods of time.

Welcome to SW Montana.

[homemadesalsa]

Sometimes layers truly go away (transformation, for example), but generally (my take) we fare so well because we get enough snow to *bury* layers. Areas without snowfall as abundant as ours typically is deal with problem layers for longer periods of time.

My take is the party in the slide mentioned earlier is the group was skiing a line that almost never gets skied (no skier compaction), is hard to get eyes on (we don't have as much knowledge of the surface underneath, where there are cliff bands, etc), and also gets hammered by wind so is subject to varying snow depths.

Hit a shallow spot and that "PWL" is not under 2 meters of snow but 30cm — boom.

Reminds me of the Olive Oyl slide a year or 2 ago — shallow spot triggers something bigger.

That's my hot take.

PWL should never (rarely) be completely off backcountry travelers' radar — that's only when you are in a place where you know you are unlikely to affect it (e.g., 1.5m deep when you're riding fat skis with smooth technique).

[this is a nuanced conversation that goes well beyond what I've written above — just writing a couple thoughts to add to the discussion and give some insight into how I frame it. there's a LOT more to it and that factors into my decision-making.]

Well stated, UAN. I was formulating a reply to Kokomas in my head driving home from the pass. Was going to say some similar stuff, you know. I've been helping the forecast team with their writing, weighing in on fun discussions such as when to take that Persistent slab off the problem list and how to make sense out of the variability in our current pack.

A few thoughts:
- previous tracks are good for breaking up certain kinds of problems, but this turned out to be depth hoar- big cups at the ground, and a thin zone, as you said, cross loaded AND stripped.
- Elsewhere we are getting to 2 meters HS in places, which does buffer/ protect those buried PWLs from being triggered, while pressing them (layer thinning) flat and warming them up. To use the vocabulary of the Conceptual Model of Avalanche Hazard, their distribution (at least that of the Nov drought layer that was buried on the 27th) is much less widespread than it was. But it's still showing propagation in tests; I will be curious to see their crown profile- is the Nov 27 the same as the base of the pack there? High and west might not have kept coverage in our Nov storms.

Yes, fascinating and not completely comprehensible keeps me curious and a bit scared. Knowing those facets are still down there, plus some odd wind slabs here and there, kept my mindset from going all the way to Open Season. I've Stepped Out as far as I'm probably going to for a bit, might be at Status Quo or even Stepping Back with this spate of new avalanches. We triggered a baby baby wind slab up in Chicken Scratch this morning. Photos below.

Kokomas thanks for your nice words about the forecast. The new format and new crew have gotten a lot of hate from crusty old locals, but it was time for us to upgrade all the systems. This new forecast team is working really hard to get out there into ALL their huge three zones, and learning many many new skills. I am trying to help as much as I can, glad to see that you appreciate their thoughtfulness. It's a complex science and a complex art, translating science into human behavior, which is even more unpredictable than snow.

[Core Shot]

It’s so weird. Skier compaction is bs. But. Skiers scraping hoar frost in RS is legit. Some compaction. But not enough to compact. On the other hand the goat path gets scraped. Granite and Cody and four pines, not so much.

A decade ago a dude died in toilet bowl wearing a beacon.

Hats off to the forecasters. Thank you. It ain’t easy.

[homemadesalsa]

It’s so weird. Skier compaction is bs. But. Skiers scraping hoar frost in RS is legit. Some compaction. But not enough to compact. On the other hand the goat path gets scraped. Granite and Cody and four pines, not so much.

A decade ago a dude died in toilet bowl wearing a beacon.

Hats off to the forecasters. Thank you. It ain’t easy.

The skier compaction question is super interesting. It really depends on the avalanche problem. If your problems are surface issues like wind slab or surface hoar, then sure, skier compaction can be a thing. It disturbs the continuity of slabs or weak layers, making it hard for fractures/ failures to propagate. If you have a large scale basal problem, however, like an early snowpack subjected to cold temps for a long time, then you need to dig a bit deeper for skier compaction to work. Ski areas (especially in Colorado) trade bootpacking efforts for passes; Targhee has done it a bit on the north side of Peaked around her. They fix lines and have set patterns. That works pretty well. But skiing up those kinds of drought surfaces takes concerted effort/.

And as far as tackling post-control releases and that Toilet Bowl avalanche, no way am I touching that one. Hard to truly "control" that kind of terrain effectively.

[aBradAbroad]

Thanks for the discussion on this. Truly appreciated. I feel like a lot of Avy 1 type knowledge (and in a lesser way, the forecast, by nature) is very general, so I like anytime I can pick up specific local discussion and think through exact zones/lines. I for one probably rely too much on the idea of skier compaction in the 5-10 “those never slide” zones on the pass and in the park.


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[hutash]

Also, PWL layers buried deep can be triggered by surface slides from storm and wind slabs, so skiing those to break them up can help prevent PWL from failing giving them more time to heal.

[Ski220]

Toured out to Pinedale today.
Not many people out and about.
Took a few pics of slide activity out there.
Didn’t see any obvious signs of burial extraction.
Just means I didn’t.
Pic #1 is of location I have witnessed slide.
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-Passes/page25
post #1037
Whole top bowl seems to receive massive amounts
of wind.


If you can stitch together these two photos,
you can see the breath of the break.


.

[hutash]

Bummed we didn't make Jackson this trip, but starting in Denver we never made it past SLc since the storm cycle has been never ending for the past two weeks. The Wasatch was firing all time. It is time to slowly start heading back to Denver to pick up the dog who has been playing nonstop with my daughter's chessie.

[NBABUCKS1]

I got a line on some skis from someone moving on Sunday and I'm not in town until Friday 1/27. Guy says he's out in Wilson just off moose/wilson road. Can anyone help with a pickup by chance?

[kokomas]

Sure, can try

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[NBABUCKS1]

right on, thanks a bunch kokomas- I have your number and I'll reach out if it comes to fruition.

[hardboiled]

heya jackson crew, popping back into this thread as I'll be arriving in Jackson on Saturday with a non-mag buddy. first time for both of us so would love to hook up and ski a lap with whoever's around. we're both 30+ yrs skiing and 15+ yrs bc in Tahoe/eastern Sierra for experience, far cry from pros but can keep up with most folks, bringing resort and touring gear. our plan is to ski the resort/sidecountry Sunday and Monday, then depending on weather/conditions might tour in the park or on the pass for a day or two. I haven't done as much research as I usually do before a trip so don't have much more of a plan than that. anyway LMK if anyone's down to ride with some new internet friends!

[swimmy]

Thinking about bringing the wife down for this.

Do they just set up a stage on the slopes and play all afternoon?

[jpcm]

Hey all. Just a shout out recognizing all the constructive avy discussion you guys have in this thread. As someone who lurks both in this thread and in your neck of the woods quite a bit, it is appreciated.

And the stoke…. Love all the stoke!!

[NBABUCKS1]

w/r/t Rendezvous - I saw the Texas Gentleman in Pinedale this summer at their summer concert series. Fantastic live band it's kind of a bummer they are backing Bingham (i'm sure it's great though). If they get their own set I wouldn't miss it! Going to be annoying dealing with all the yellowstone fanners with that one.

i'm def not an expert on your question but years past videos look like friday is in the square and sat is in the village parking lot by the tram

[kokomas]

Busted out of work and made the 310 tram. Very chill no speech needed type of car. Then a thunder and two gondies for 11k vert in 50 min. Sweet. Helped that it's a little fast out there

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[schindlerpiste]

From mine to yours: Nice Chessies

DJ: I hope things are working out. Take care.

UAN: IMHO that double sluffy pow shot with the single tree on P29 (photo #2) is the best photo I've seen all year. Well done, sir!

[upallnight]

Busted out of work and made the 310 tram. Very chill no speech needed type of car. Then a thunder and two gondies for 11k vert in 50 min. Sweet. Helped that it's a little fast out there

Solid amount of great skiing in an hour!

UAN: IMHO that double sluffy pow shot with the single tree on P29 (photo #2) is the best photo I've seen all year. Well done, sir!

SUPER kind of you.

Sometimes you get one shot at a thing and you nail it. I try hard with my photography (funny thing: in my kid's world, a "try hard" is a bit of an insult! ) — and I've been noticing that the amount of times I can translate what is in my mind's eye to the camera sensor is steadily increasing. The better I've gotten, the luckier I get. Long journey.

Nice to have cold temps (and dry snow) back:

[upallnight]

Thanks for the discussion on this. Truly appreciated. I feel like a lot of Avy 1 type knowledge (and in a lesser way, the forecast, by nature) is very general, so I like anytime I can pick up specific local discussion and think through exact zones/lines. I for one probably rely too much on the idea of skier compaction in the 5-10 “those never slide” zones on the pass and in the park.


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The thing about places that "never slide" is...



I remember when a slope at Squaw that had no less than 1,000 skiers on it slide one afternoon...

Welcome to SW Montana.

There's a reason I feel more comfortable skiing consequential lines in the Tetons!

Thanks for the furry creature shot UAN!
And all the skiing pics too of course.

Not ski-related but something you might enjoy:

I kind of have a thing for animals in derpy moments or with their tongues out:

Bears 'n berries 'n tongues:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CiwiYDnuOmQ/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CjFLystOqTt/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CjOXdoROK4x/ — video

Sheep family 'n tongue:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CmLgiDzuFnA/

Derpy moose:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CiiGRMxr-_v/

Deer 'n tongue:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbwewdJuf9j/

[stevied]

Busted out of work and made the 310 tram. Very chill no speech needed type of car. Then a thunder and two gondies for 11k vert in 50 min. Sweet. Helped that it's a little fast out there.

Fast is an understatement. Might be that way for a while, I hope not as long as last year.

I ran into Baron and gforce for a couple of runs today, which was nice.

[swimmy]

i'm def not an expert on your question but years past videos look like friday is in the square and sat is in the village parking lot by the tram

Thanks. I'm assuming they will put out a schedule but in case we come I went ahead and got a room. We are most interested in Futurebirds. Saw 'em last year in Paradise Valley. It had been 10 years since the last show...dang they were good.

There's a reason I feel more comfortable skiing consequential lines in the Tetons!

This is probably what I'm most envious of with you guys. The bc around Jackson is world class. Incredible terrain with a generally stable snowpack. Good on ya for taking advantage and appreciate you sharing the stoke.

[Djongo Unchained]

Bummed we didn't make Jackson this trip, but starting in Denver we never made it past SLc since the storm cycle has been never ending for the past two weeks. The Wasatch was firing all time. It is time to slowly start heading back to Denver to pick up the dog who has been playing nonstop with my daughter's chessie.

You made the right call staying in SLC. Wish it woulda flowed to us but not so much.
Classic chessie face, casual business attire. Intensely friendly. Little buddy looks tuckered out.

I got a line on some skis from someone moving on Sunday and I'm not in town until Friday 1/27. Guy says he's out in Wilson just off moose/wilson road. Can anyone help with a pickup by chance?

Holla if I can help as well. Pm me the sellers name, maybe a friend...

heya jackson crew, popping back into this thread as I'll be arriving in Jackson on Saturday with a non-mag buddy. first time for both of us so would love to hook up and ski a lap with whoever's around. we're both 30+ yrs skiing and 15+ yrs bc in Tahoe/eastern Sierra for experience, far cry from pros but can keep up with most folks, bringing resort and touring gear. our plan is to ski the resort/sidecountry Sunday and Monday, then depending on weather/conditions might tour in the park or on the pass for a day or two. I haven't done as much research as I usually do before a trip so don't have much more of a plan than that. anyway LMK if anyone's down to ride with some new internet friends!

Reach out when close, we'll connect for some turns fosho.

Busted out of work and made the 310 tram. Very chill no speech needed type of car. Then a thunder and two gondies for 11k vert in 50 min. Sweet. Helped that it's a little fast out there

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Nice mag, sounds like you need to get on the WC GS 193's. I'm tellin' ya...

Fast is an understatement. Might be that way for a while, I hope not as long as last year.

I ran into Baron and gforce for a couple of runs today, which was nice.

I skied with those mags for a few hours before hitting the dusty trail. Nice skiing, mellow; trying to harden the weak leg now. Back feels aight.


So Ski220, Baron, Pfluffenmeister and Gforce are all staying at the Super8 now. Apparently, that's the new mag central.

Gonna get firm for days, Get your raciness on. Small crowds and blazing groomers. Off piste is still surprisingly soft, good turns all around.

[schwerty]

Thanks for sharing the links, UAN! Love your stuff!


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