Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

[stalefish3169]

Can somebody explain why the Chinese Gov. has a such a hard on for BTC mining? Are they short on power so all this use is creating problems? Raising energy prices? Or are they wary of losing some control of finance in China?

China is cracking down on BTC because they are releasing their central bank digital currency, which will of course be a human rights nightmare. They will be able to spy on their citizens to an even greater extent than they already do, which is overwhelmingly scary. Additionally, China will be able to censor people's transactions at will and confiscate their savings. I believe that some of the issued money will also be time sensitive and expire.

It's a no-brainer that Biden has a once in a lifetime chance to swoop in and make the US a hotbed for crypto innovation and give us a giant competitive advantage going into the next few decades. But of course he won't because he's the stubborn old Senator from MBNA and wants nothing more than to protect the status quo. After all, behind closed doors he told Wall Street that, "Nothing would fundamentally change" under his administration. Unfortunately, many of the posters in this thread have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome and want to keep paying a shitload of taxes to the military industrial complex and keep the corrupt elite calling the shots. But maybe you will all figure it one day. Hopefully, before it's not too late.

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[Skidog]

What do you think an investment is, genius? Why do people buy gold? Are they hoarding it in case they need to fill some cavities or make a shiny necklace? No, they are buying it so they can one day sell it at a profit, like pretty much every other investment.

Clown.

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Except you know, gold is like something you can actually hold on to.

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[stalefish3169]

Except you know, gold is like something you can actually hold on to.

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Gold is hard to verify. Gold is difficult to divide. Gold is extremely difficult to transport. Gold is easily seized by corrupt entities. Gold mining is conducted by pouring cyanide, literal poison, into the water supply and leaves giant scars on the landscape.

It's the 21st century. I hate to break it to you, but shit isn't going to get less digital. Millennials and Zoomers understand this. Sorry if you don't.

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[MultiVerse]

Some good points. So let's usher in the 2020s by throwing away archaic coercive environmentally rapey Proof-of-Work boomer coins like BTC and replace them with crypto 2.0 & 3.0.

After all, if folks want an alternative to fiat made available on a level playing field then you have to, out of necessity, do away with the biggest legitimate reason the government has for regulating its competition into obscurity.

[Benny Profane]

What do you think an investment is, genius? Why do people buy gold? Are they hoarding it in case they need to fill some cavities or make a shiny necklace? No, they are buying it so they can one day sell it at a profit, like pretty much every other investment.

Clown.

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Bitcoin is not an investment.

[Benny Profane]

Can somebody explain why the Chinese Gov. has a such a hard on for BTC mining? Are they short on power so all this use is creating problems? Raising energy prices? Or are they wary of losing some control of finance in China?

The last. The party is all about power. Re: Jack Ma.

[Bunion 2020]

Sorry Benny, should have put a /R after that question.

I wanted to get Stale to hold forth, he did not fail to do so.

[stalefish3169]

Some good points. So let's usher in the 2010s by throwing away archaic coercive environmentally rapey Proof-of-Work boomer coins like BTC and replace them with crypto 2.0 & 3.0.

You fundamentally just don't get it. Using electricity isn't inherently bad. Electricity can come from renewables and there is lots of stranded energy that isn't conducive for much because it's away from population centers, but feasible for BTC mining. There is a mass exodus out of China happening right now and much of the energy used in new mining locales will be primarily renewable. I still firmly believe that BTC mining will drive green energy development, even though people have a hard time accepting this idea. Finally as far as tech is concerned, BTC is by far the most decentralized and secure network; those things themselves are hugely innovative. New advancements such as Taproot and Schnoor signatures are big improvements and will be love in a few months.

Bitcoin is not an investment.

Then why do I have to pay capital gains taxes on it?

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[pureantigravity]

Interesting story about using excess natural gas in the Bakken oil play to power crypto-mining computers. Otherwise the gas just gets flared for the most part.

https://www.ktvq.com/news/montana-ne...kken-oil-field

Why not use the generated electricity for foldingathome.org? Do these gas companies not realize they will need new mining equipment every 2 to 3 years or else risk mining at a loss? And then mining machines going into electronics waste. They could even get a government grant or tax deduction if the computing power was donated to a charitable science cause. Obviously any use of the gas for power is better than just flaring it, right?

"Together, we have created the most powerful supercomputer on the planet, and are using it to help understand SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 and develop new therapies. We need your help pushing toward a potent, patent-free drug. Use your PC to help fight COVID-19."

IMO if a company can get staff and equipment to a location and setup 1000 miners running in a shipping container with internet connectivity and support for ongoing systems issues, opsec etc., then it really isn't a "stranded resource." The whole "stranded" part is an oxymoron anyways. If it was stranded you wouldn't be there sucking oil and gas out of the earth, you'd be still building the roads required to get equipment there.

[jono]

Economically stranded, though--totally not generating money yet.

There is a mass exodus out of China happening right now and much of the energy used in new mining locales will be primarily renewable.

So you're saying these BTC miners heading over from China are bringing their own power plants? Or are they moving to places where other people built some renewable infrastructure and they're going to increase the load on that?

[Benny Profane]

You fundamentally just don't get it. Using electricity isn't inherently bad. Electricity can come from renewables and there is lots of stranded energy that isn't conducive for much because it's away from population centers, but feasible for BTC mining. There is a mass exodus out of China happening right now and much of the energy used in new mining locales will be primarily renewable. I still firmly believe that BTC mining will drive green energy development, even though people have a hard time accepting this idea. Finally as far as tech is concerned, BTC is by far the most decentralized and secure network; those things themselves are hugely innovative. New advancements such as Taproot and Schnoor signatures are big improvements and will be love in a few months.

Then why do I have to pay capital gains taxes on it?

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Because you got lucky in the speculative bubble.

If you seriously consider this an investment, you will never retire.

[MultiVerse]

You fundamentally just don't get it. Using electricity isn't inherently bad. Electricity can come from renewables and there is lots of stranded energy that isn't conducive for much because it's away from population centers, but feasible for BTC mining. There is a mass exodus out of China happening right now and much of the energy used in new mining locales will be primarily renewable. I still firmly believe that BTC mining will drive green energy development, even though people have a hard time accepting this idea. Finally as far as tech is concerned, BTC is by far the most decentralized and secure network; those things themselves are hugely innovative. New advancements such as Taproot and Schnoor signatures are big improvements and will be love in a few months.

Credit where credit is due, you keep repeating the same discredited talking points. The problem is bitcoin just lost its largest so called source of renewable 'stranded energy' when hydro powered mining farms in Sichuan were shut down.

Wet season Chinese hydro powered mining was bitcoin's main claim to being powered by renewables. Now that's gone. What bitcoin has left are token renewable sources useful for greenwashing but otherwise mostly mined with energy derived from coal and other fossil fuels. Even the Bitcoin Mining Council threw in the towel and says “We are not trying to fix bitcoin.” They've chosen instead to become a lobbying group intent on spreading disinformation.

[Benny Profane]

Quite absurd to use that argument that Bitcoin power usage will be cool because it will primarily use renewable sources. Wtf. Then I've seen squeaky clean kids on tv say that coins are actually good for the environment, because they inspire the development of more renewable sources. Haha. Ain't that a chicken and egg plate of bullshit. Meanwhile, Texas goes down from severe cold, Texas limits consumption from extreme heat. And it's not as though the rest of the country is awash in plentiful, cheap power. I wouldn't be surprised if the Northeast has another great outage if a big heat wave happens over a week, which happens every now and then. I never read that we invested the hundreds of billions to fix that. So, right, it's ok to let a bunch of greedy con men use the power that would fuel a small city to make funny money, when there's plenty of fucking money in the world, anyway. Um, no. No way

[MultiVerse]

Yeah, it's important to recognize energy is not just an environmental problem, it's also a macroeconomic problem because energy price shocks contributed to all but one of the modern postwar recessions.

The one two combination of price spikes causing supply shocks followed by demand driven inflation leads to a disruptive economic cycle. So even if a person doesn't care about environmental problems, increasing energy demand inevitably creates economic problems too.

[pureantigravity]

What bitcoin has left are token renewable sources useful for greenwashing but otherwise mostly mined with energy derived from coal and other fossil fuels.

It will be renamed from 'mining' to 'equity generation' and the process will be sold as "impetus equity generation for a fairer and greener future".
Wall street could lap that up. Same process, even greater waste, but with a blessed twist! Bitcoin will also have to be renamed to 'Enviro Credits'.

What are we doing? "We are securing the future of our society and planet through equity generation and the creation of Enviro Credits. The most blessed Satoshi has found a way to secure generational wealth and simultaneously provide the impetus for a fairer and greener future for all the nations and tribes in our multi-planet human future"

/s

[stalefish3169]

Sorry Benny, should have put a /R after that question.

I wanted to get Stale to hold forth, he did not fail to do so.

You all complain about me for telling it how it is, but behave like this. Act with some integrity man.

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[Skidog]

Gold is hard to verify. Gold is difficult to divide. Gold is extremely difficult to transport. Gold is easily seized by corrupt entities. Gold mining is conducted by pouring cyanide, literal poison, into the water supply and leaves giant scars on the landscape.

It's the 21st century. I hate to break it to you, but shit isn't going to get less digital. Millennials and Zoomers understand this. Sorry if you don't.

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Not all gold mining is done in this fashion. It's still something that will always be a piece of worth.

Tell me what happens if the whole internet goes dark? Those bitcoins (and fiat) will be worth piss....gold? Not so much.

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[stalefish3169]

Because you got lucky in the speculative bubble.

If you seriously consider this an investment, you will never retire.

Nah, son. I did my research and realized BTC is a profound technological breakthrough that solved the Byzantine General's Problem. Once I came to this conclusion I used the well-established dollar cost averaging strategy which allowed me to accumulate a nice position with a relatively low cost basis. Admittedly, my investing strategy is quite aggressive, but I make a decent six figure salary as a software developer and have a few decades until I reach traditional retirement age. However, I'd like to save enough to retire before then and expatriate to Central America.

It's easy for you to write BTC off as a speculative bubble. But let's be honest here shall we? How many of you thought BTC was dead after the Mt. Gox hack in 2014? What about after the 2017 bull run? What kind of cognitive dissonance does it take to keep denying that BTC is here to stay now that we have Billionaires like Paul Tudor Jones and Ray Dalio owning some? How about publicly traded companies adding it to their balance sheets? What about El Salvador declaring it legal tender with several other countries not far behind?

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[Benny Profane]

Perfect. Retire to Central America where the power goes out daily. And men with guns roam freely.

[stalefish3169]

Not all gold mining is done in this fashion. It's still something that will always be a piece of worth.

Tell me what happens if the whole internet goes dark? Those bitcoins (and fiat) will be worth piss....gold? Not so much.

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Well, not all BTC is mined with coal but you all sure act like it is. Just a few minutes of research illustrate the huge environmental devastation from gold mines, much of which is done illegally.

https://www.usaid.gov/peru/our-work/illegal-gold-mining

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ticotim...t-crucitas/amp

Alternatively, even by the most conservative estimates, BTC mining uses renewable energy at a rate 2x that of the USA's grid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hbr.org...tually-consume

What happens if the whole internet goes dark? LOLOLOLOLOLOL That's really your argument? Take a lap man. In fact, take two.

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[stalefish3169]

Perfect. Retire to Central America where the power goes out daily. And men with guns roam freely.

Let me get this straight. You live in the United States and you're pointing your finger at other countries for...gun violence?

Interesting strategy.



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[jono]

Well, not all BTC is mined with coal but you all sure act like it is.

The marginal kWh comes from the most expensive source. Very fundamental macroeconomics. If you cut back demand by one kWh you'll burn that much less fossil fuel (*). It's not about whether all of it comes from coal, just the last one--which is to say, any of them. You have to hit 100% renewable before you aren't burning fossils. This is the same challenge faced by electric cars, and if not for that we'd have dumped gasoline a decade ago.

(*)The only exception is if you aren't yet using all of the electricity from solar and wind and so have excess instantaneous renewable capacity. Dams don't help you with this because the water is limited and 100% of it will be used when needed if you don't use it right now.

[Benny Profane]

Let me get this straight. You live in the United States and you're pointing your finger at other countries for...gun violence?

Interesting strategy.



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You are young and very naive.

[Bunion 2020]

You all complain about me for telling it how it is, but behave like this. Act with some integrity man.

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Except that you are only telling it like you perceive it to be and you are absolutely positive that your viewpoint is the right one and everyone else is wrong.

[bennymac]

Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. It is strongest when tied to personal security - including financial security.