Crystal Mountain Becomes Alterra

[Buster Highmen]

No.

Their stated reason this year is because of over crowding and improving the "experience". It's a more cynical move than the reservation system last year that was nominally due to covid and the likely fear of getting shut down by the state.

OK.
I'm wondering if the parking solution is a flop by virtue of some inability to enforce it.

Between the overt overselling of passes and the disinformation regarding the implementation of reservations to ski this season, I sure hope there's enough legal traction to punish Alterra.

[PNWbrit]

OK.
I'm wondering if the parking solution is a flop by virtue of some inability to enforce it.

Between the overt overselling of passes and the disinformation regarding the implementation of reservations to ski this season, I sure hope there's enough legal traction to punish Alterra.

Yep.

https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhand...laintForm.aspx

[ptavv]

My wager is that the parking situation is driving (no pun intended) everything. The lift situations have been worlds better than last year, even on the days they're parking out F lot. Last year there were state imposed capacity caps that were based on percentages of "maximum" for recreation as well as for indoor space utilization, so that clearly doesn't fly this year. Given the notably manageable lift lines and mountain crowding situation as compared to the filled out parking lots, it seems like it's gotta be a parking capacity issue (see also: reservation waivers for people who ride the busses).

They thought they'd be able to manage the parking situation by incentivizing car pooling and by charging for parking, but they obviously miscalculated that and now they're scrambling to contain all the vehicle traffic. I think they also *have* to do something because of the SUP and their adjacency to MRNP in terms of environmental mitigation (I know they got in a lot of trouble for wastewater runoff a few years ago and the situation with cars was brought up in all that)

[PNWbrit]

Parking doesn't seem to be as big an issue as last year from what I see.

[ptavv]

They had an IG post a couple days ago in the AM that if you hadn't made it past Enumclaw yet there wasn't going to be any parking. There've been another couple IG "moments" (so now gone) that had similar messages about parking being tight.

[PNWbrit]

Yep.

Not as bad as it has been as far as I've seen. Lines are shorter on the mountain too.

[ptavv]

https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...-our-community

JANUARY 1, 2022

Hello Crystal skiers and riders. First, thank you as always for your love for the Mountain. You know we share that love and that we want you to have an incredible ski experience every time you visit. Despite COVID outbreaks impacting staffing across our operations, our team has been putting forth truly heroic efforts across the board to make that possible. If you have an opportunity to thank a liftie, parking attendant, plow driver, mechanic, food service worker or any other front-liners on your next visit please do because they’ve really made the great skiing experiences that we’ve had over the past week possible.


PENT UP DEMAND
After a late start and disappointing conditions in early December, we’ve been graced with feet, and more feet, of incredible snow but only to have road conditions down in town make it difficult for folks to get here. Those who figured out the roads were treated to truly amazing days on the mountain this past week, but we know many of you couldn’t join us and are eagerly awaiting your turn to play in the snow. If you can get up here midweek, please DO IT. Conditions are amazing and we’ve got room for you.


At the same time, we want to prepare collectively as a ski community for the fact that most of our skiers and riders are coming to ski and ride on the weekends, and that conditions like these coming after such a slow snow start will inspire more people to join us in the coming weekends than we will have room for. The PNW has one of the greatest ski cultures in the US, and we’re proud to be part of that culture, but when the proverbial stars align, we simply can’t all ski at once. As you likely know, we’re seeing crowding at ski areas up and down the Cascades. In fact, issues across the region have added additional pressure on our capacity here at Crystal. On top of these circumstances, COVID has forced people to retreat to lower car occupancy which further dilutes the effectiveness of our most restricted asset – parking.

LOOKING AHEAD
Our long-term solution revolves around an aggressive expansion program that we plan to kick-off this spring should planning, approvals, and permitting allow. Our plan is aimed at raising parking, lodge, restroom, and lift capacity to meet the overall skiing capacity of the mountain, thus reducing pinch points that are hurting our skiers’ experience. Because of planning, approvals, and construction needs, this is a plan that will unroll over the course of the next several years.

In the meantime, beyond our current practice of restricting lift ticket sales on dates when we know capacity will be stretched, we’ve decided to bring back the reservation system that was in place last winter to help us manage capacity. I know our decision came on suddenly, but we made a commitment to our skiers two years ago that we will stay ahead of our challenges and based on a combination of COVID, a late start, gangbuster snowfall, and pronounced capacity issues at other mountains in the region, we’re making this move now to prevent further frustrations getting access to the mountain. To do so we had to act quickly to be up and running prior to next weekend, which is why this change occurred so suddenly.


RESERVATIONS ARE BACK
The reservation system will work much like it did last year in that pass holders will be able to reserve up to 7 days at a time to allow multi-day visitors to book their entire stay while allowing our day skiers to plan for multiple trips up to the mountain. Our reason for the reservation system is because despite the converging factors that can impact our ability to host happy skiers, we want you to be able to reliably know that when you wake up and load the car, that you’re going to be able to find a spot to park it and enjoy a day on the hill.


EXPRESS BUS SERVICE
The best way to get access on a weekend is to sign up for the Crystal Mountain Express bus. There are several free buses which depart from Enumclaw every Friday, Saturday and Sunday and will get you on the hill as quickly as traffic allows and includes a reservation for pass holders who were unable to secure their own. Beyond that we suggest that skiers follow communications through the app, website, and social media.


STAYING CONNECTED
Because the best days on snow are often driven by great snowstorms, these great days are the days when road conditions tend to lead to accidents and traffic issues. As such we highly recommend that you download the Crystal Mountain App and indicate that you’re open to alerts and messages. On peak days we use these alerts to communicate parking status and to the best of our knowledge, road status. We’re fortunate to have a relatively low-elevation approach to the Mountain that for the most part is clear of snow and ice but that’s not always the case, and when road conditions are less than ideal, traffic moves slowly, and cars do have accidents. We can’t control the roads, but we can do our best to keep you informed of the conditions.


And of course, the bottom line is that if you’d like a wide-open experience – come see us on a weekday! There’s a lot of room up here when folks are at work or school, so if you have any flexibility in your schedule, it can be some of the best skiing available anywhere.


We wish you all a great year ahead and thank you kindly for your patience, understanding and support.

Frank DeBerry
President & COO

Maybe it's confirmation bias but that reads to me like parking is a big part of it.

[Buster Highmen]

https://www.change.org/p/ikon-pass-n...ystal-mountain

[Bobcat Sig]

https://www.change.org/p/ikon-pass-n...ystal-mountain

Done. Email sent, as well.

Thanks for doing that.

[ianpnw]

Here’s my email to Deberry

Despite having oversold season’s passes to Crystal earlier this year, you said repeatedly that there would be no reservations.
And now you introduce them.
This is classic, immoral, bait and switch procedure.
Maybe next year when you advertise a season’s pass you will add the rider that we may or may not be able to use it, and that the service we have paid for may or may not be provided, at Crystal’s discretion (or whim).
And by the way, the dinner and water cooler conversation from my friends and colleagues, many of whom are long time Crystal skiers, reflect exactly the points I made above.

As a side note, maybe when your pass sales diminish you will reflect on how you might grow the number of casual skiers and turn them into skiing enthusiasts - provided they haven’t been deterred by the $170 day skiing tickets and $30 parking.

I am sure many of my outraged friends and colleagues will be complaining to the state about your deceptive marketing tactics, as will I.

Imagine buying season’s passes to, say, a theater or symphony venue with the expectation that you will get to see the plays or hear the music. Imagine that the vendor sells 200 passes, despite only having 100 seats, and then introduces a reservation system as the season starts, meaning that you only get to see half the events. Imagine how you might feel…..

I look forward to your thoughtful response. Please don’t waste your time or mine telling me that restricting my ability to use a service I’ve paid for is for my own good, or that you want me to have “an incredible ski experience”. It’s impossible to have an incredible experience when you can’t get a reservation.

[Buster Highmen]

Here’s my email to Deberry

[Despite having oversold season’s passes to Crystal earlier this year, you said repeatedly that there would be no reservations.
And now you introduce them.
This is classic, immoral, bait and switch procedure.
Maybe next year when you advertise a season’s pass you will add the rider that we may or may not be able to use it, and that the service we have paid for may or may not be provided, at Crystal’s discretion (or whim).
And by the way, the dinner and water cooler conversation from my friends and colleagues, many of whom are long time Crystal skiers, reflect exactly the points I made above.

As a side note, maybe when your pass sales diminish you will reflect on how you might grow the number of casual skiers and turn them into skiing enthusiasts - provided they haven’t been deterred by the $170 day skiing tickets and $30 parking.

I am sure many of my outraged friends and colleagues will be complaining to the state about your deceptive marketing tactics, as will I.

Imagine buying season’s passes to, say, a theater or symphony venue with the expectation that you will get to see the plays or hear the music. Imagine that the vendor sells 200 passes, despite only having 100 seats, and then introduces a reservation system as the season starts, meaning that you only get to see half the events. Imagine how you might feel…..

I look forward to your thoughtful response. Please don’t waste your time or mine telling me that restricting my ability to use a service I’ve paid for is for my own good, or that you want me to have “an incredible ski experience”. It’s impossible to have an incredible experience when you can’t get a reservation.

COLOR tags make it illegible to those of the old guard with blue backgrounds.

[PNWbrit]

It's a good email.

Keep 'em coming folks.

[timeo]

My email to Frank:

Frank,

Hopefully you will read this entire email and not just delete it based on the subject line, I have been skiing at your hill for 48 years so the least you can do is hear me out.

You and Crystal Mountain are literally stealing from your customers by enacting the reservation system after you EXPLICITLY stated there would be no reservations this year and proceeded to force passholders into buying the unlimited Ikon pass if they wanted to ski unlimited at Crystal this year, the key word being UNLIMITED!

Now you pull the old bait and switch and the reason (per you) isn't Covid or health related.... it is PARKING?!?!? You mention "pent-up demand" in your letter but the real cause is Crystal OVERSELLING your product, not something outside your control. YOU caused this by selling too many passes and the solution is not your customers need to adapt. The solution is eliminating the reservations or Crystal needs to provide a partial refund to every passholder for not providing the service we contracted to buy from you: UNLIMITED skiing.

Rather than reservations, let your customers determine themselves who truly wants to ski: when the lots are almost full spread the word via Twitter, your website, signboard at beginning of 410, etc. that the only way to the mountain are the buses from Enumclaw Let the committed skiers get up earlier and those who want to sleep in can take the bus.

I have also noticed you raised your F&B prices substantially this year ($10 for a beer at Campbell, pre tip????); this isn't a NFL stadium. I for one will not spend another penny at Crystal for F&B as long as the reservation system is in place.

Regards

[Buster Highmen]

Frank DeBerry, Crustal manager for Alterra fyi:

fdeberry@skicrystal.com

[wolfelot]

Will the credit card a person used to buy the pass go to bat for them on something like this if they contest the charge?

[Ørion]

Will the credit card a person used to buy the pass go to bat for them on something like this if they contest the charge?

Regardless, be prepared to be blackballed from any IKON resorts if you do attempt it, corps don't look kindly at buybacks, even when justified.

[PNW_Skier206]

I have had a series of exchanges with Frank. He has confirmed the reason for the reservation system is to allow families the ability to come up at 10am. He didn’t directly say it but I’m guessing a number of rich families complained that they weren’t able to get a Sat/Sunday spot because they left Seattle at 730.

The hilarious thing is I’m not even sure this solves the issue they intend to. Let’s say I am unable to get a weekend reservation on a particular day. I’m just going to drive up and ski in the backcountry around Crystal and still use their parking lot. So I can’t use my pass but I’m still taking up a parking spot.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[TAFKALVS]

More high(er) elevation snowparks.
More lifts.
More parking.
More restaurant capacity.
New ski areas.

Until these things happen, PNW ski areas will continue to be a shitshow. It's a simple issue of being overcapacity with too little infrastructure to support the crowds.

[Buster Highmen]

Yes, but, given the limited seats, it's on Alterra for overselling the resources as defined by the CCC in the SUP granted by the USFS, part of the executive branch of the US government.

In that light, folks, please consider writing to the USDA and describe the problem.
askusda@usda.gov

Link to Crystal MDP, specifies Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC), see Table ROD-1 https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_4263892.pdf

Alpine Ski Area Capacity (CCC) 7,460 10,170 9,740
Lift/Trail Capacity (SAOT)a
7,120 10,040 9,600
Backcountry Capacity in SUP (SAOT)b
340 130 140
Design Peak Day Capacity (PAOT)c
8,206 11,187 10,714 <<<<<

Alterra has sold around 20000 Ikon passes in the Puget Sound, intentionally creating situations that cannot be satisfied. This is an abuse of the Public Trust.


>>>>>
To Whom It May Concern,

First, Alterra, owner of the Crystal Mountain Special Use Permit (SUP) https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_4263892.pdf has sold over 20000 "unlimited" seasons lift passes in the Puget Sound Area.

Given that the SUP is predicated on a Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC) of 10,714 according to Table ROD-1 of the above document, this is clearly a breach of the CCC.

The analogy here is that a public resource of a stadium with 10000 seats has been contracted out to a concessionaire who sells 20000 seasons tickets.

This is fraud.

Second, these "unlimited" seasons passes were sold with a promise of unlimited access and in particular, no reservation to ski system:
UNRESTRICTED LIFT ACCESS
Ski and ride any day, anytime this season. The snow is yours to play. No blackouts or restrictions. Give yourself the ultimate freedom of unlimited lift access with the Crystal Anytime Pass.
See https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...b=anytime-pass

From their Facebook page: "... We do not have a reservation system to ski this season. ..."

Alterra has just announced they are instituting a reservation system to manage the problem they have created by over selling the resource.

This is a classic bait and switch, also fraud.

There are hundreds of upset USFS users: https://www.change.org/p/ikon-pass-n...ystal-mountain

Could your department please reign in Alterra? I continue to have some faith that our government represents the people and not just wealthy corporations who seek to abuse resources that belong to the people.
<<<<<

[Ørion]

Yes, but, given the limited seats, it's on Alterra for overselling the resources as defined by the CCC in the SUP granted by the USFS, part of the executive branch of the US government.

In that light, folks, please consider writing to the USDA and describe the problem.
askusda@usda.gov

Link to Crystal MDP, specifies Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC), see Table ROD-1 https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_4263892.pdf

Alpine Ski Area Capacity (CCC) 7,460 10,170 9,740
Lift/Trail Capacity (SAOT)a
7,120 10,040 9,600
Backcountry Capacity in SUP (SAOT)b
340 130 140
Design Peak Day Capacity (PAOT)c
8,206 11,187 10,714 <<<<<

Alterra has sold around 20000 Ikon passes in the Puget Sound, intentionally creating situations that cannot be satisfied. This is an abuse of the Public Trust.


>>>>>
To Whom It May Concern,

First, Alterra, owner of the Crystal Mountain Special Use Permit (SUP) https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_4263892.pdf has sold over 20000 "unlimited" seasons lift passes in the Puget Sound Area.

Given that the SUP is predicated on a Comfortable Carrying Capacity (CCC) of 10,714 according to Table ROD-1 of the above document, this is clearly a breach of the CCC.

The analogy here is that a public resource of a stadium with 10000 seats has been contracted out to a concessionaire who sells 20000 seasons tickets.

This is fraud.

Second, these "unlimited" seasons passes were sold with a promise of unlimited access and in particular, no reservation to ski system:
UNRESTRICTED LIFT ACCESS
Ski and ride any day, anytime this season. The snow is yours to play. No blackouts or restrictions. Give yourself the ultimate freedom of unlimited lift access with the Crystal Anytime Pass.
See https://www.crystalmountainresort.co...b=anytime-pass

From their Facebook page: "... We do not have a reservation system to ski this season. ..."

Alterra has just announced they are instituting a reservation system to manage the problem they have created by over selling the resource.

This is a classic bait and switch, also fraud.

There are hundreds of upset USFS users: https://www.change.org/p/ikon-pass-n...ystal-mountain

Could your department please reign in Alterra? I continue to have some faith that our government represents the people and not just wealthy corporations who seek to abuse resources that belong to the people.
<<<<<

They've been pretty upfront in the letters and Instagram comments that they're not having problems with the mountain being full, just the parking lots. Parking is limited enough I'm not certain they can exceed the CCC.

Which actually exasperates the issue of overselling more, but focusing on the CCC might be the wrong tact.

[Buster Highmen]

They've been pretty upfront in the letters and Instagram comments that they're not having problems with the mountain being full, just the parking lots. Parking is limited enough I'm not certain they can exceed the CCC.

Which actually exasperates the issue of overselling more, but focusing on the CCC might be the wrong tact.

Consider if they didn't sell more seasons passes than the CCC. That is the root cause of all this.

[altasnob]

I have had a series of exchanges with Frank. He has confirmed the reason for the reservation system is to allow families the ability to come up at 10am. He didn’t directly say it but I’m guessing a number of rich families complained that they weren’t able to get a Sat/Sunday spot because they left Seattle at 730.

The hilarious thing is I’m not even sure this solves the issue they intend to. Let’s say I am unable to get a weekend reservation on a particular day. I’m just going to drive up and ski in the backcountry around Crystal and still use their parking lot. So I can’t use my pass but I’m still taking up a parking spot.

Good point on the backcountry. And your license plate is registered so you will be parking for free. And if you want to skin up Quicksiler and then dip over to FQ, as a paying season pass customer, no one will bat an eye.

Personally, I like it that the parking lots are small and get filled up early (and I have little kids and ski mostly weekends). That is the way it was, and that is the way it should be. It's part of being a skier in the PNW (at least the ski areas close to both Seattle and Portland). It's a long ass drive up there and kids need to get used to getting up at crack of dawn or maybe the sport isn't for them. As others have mentioned on the fuck Vail thread, Vail and Alterra are trying to Colorado our PNW resorts. It doesn't work and will not work. It's too gnarly here, not for the meek.

[ianpnw]

DeBerry replied to my email and confirmed that its all about traffic and parking, and said that if I didn’t like the reservation system I could turn in my season’s pass, or ski midweek….
Here’s what I said to him:
Dear Frank,

I believe you want to avoid frustration for skiers by limiting traffic - the issue is how best to do that.

I’ve skied at Crystal for over 30 years, and for many years on peak days traffic and parking were limiting factors - but it was rare.

The problems with traffic and parking were exponentially increased when you (Alterra) sold season passes in excess of the carrying capacity of the mountain. The solution is not to introduce reservations mid-season, but to sell an appropriate number of passes.

You (Alterra) have caused the problem by overselling passes, and you have placed the burden of fixing it on skiers and long-time Crystal supporters by limiting their access to a product for which they have paid already.

You have a supply/demand imbalance. You have decided to solve it by restricting supply, and yet you have the ability to control demand by limiting pass numbers.

Please do the right thing next year.

[phatty]

I agree with where you're going Buster and it sucks to see what has been happening down at Crystal the last few years. That said Alterra can, and should be able to, sell more passes than the CCC because not everyone is going to come every day. I know I don't use my pass every day and I doubt most on here do. The question is by how many can they exceed the CCC. Is 2x too many? I would suspect it is, but is 20K in the Seattle area the right number to look at? Do we know if 20K the full Ikon with unlimited Crystal use or is it all Ikon passes?

The mega passes have distorted the old pass buying behavior. Of those 20k, how many actually plan to ski Crystal regularly vs. use the Ikon primarily for travel? I bought a limited Ikon but as a Snoqualmie skier, I won't use all 5 of my Crystal days this year, maybe (hopefully) 1-2 days. Should I be counted in that number? Probably not, but I'm in the number for Seattle area Ikons. Unfortunately there isn't a way to measure pass buyer intent in the way they have structured the passes now.

With local passes now being conflated with ski travel, the pass buying/use behavior has changed dramatically and in ways I'm not sure the mountains fully anticipated. I think it will still take a few years to shake out. Unfortunately, now that corporate skiing has gotten addicted to the upfront cash and been completely overrun by PE bros, we're not getting the old way back. I definitely support any efforts that get us closer to it.

[Ørion]

Consider if they didn't sell more seasons passes than the CCC. That is the root cause of all this.

If they limited passes to exactly the CCC (10K-ish) we'd still be in this mess because, at the current carpooling density, Crystal doesn't have enough parking to reach the CCC (my guestimate admittedly, have they released their vehicle capacity limits?).

If the FS goes to them and asks if they're going over the CCC they can legitimate say they never have that many people on the mountain. Its a parking issue, not a CCC issue.