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  1. #3351
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    Yeah. Chuck the screw in a drill and reduce the diameter (not the height) of the head against a file/die grinder/belt sander.

    The stock screws are small heads, which have become unobtanium in M5 screws for inserts.

  2. #3352
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    Quote Originally Posted by oetk2 View Post
    Threaded dowels? If no, do you open up the holes at all to match the dowel size or just hammer them in there?
    Bamboo barbecue sqewers are the right size to fill binding screw holes
    and possibly there is a whole bag of them already in your kitchen

    IMO Once you drill a hole you have cut the main structure of the ski but there is enough structure in the rest of the ski to carry the load so until you get past 3 sets of holes there should be enough structure to support you without breaking,

    Threaded dowels are sexy as hell but I suspect it adds almost zero strength

    But you do wana seal that hole so usually I cut dowels flush with a razor knife or chisel after the epoxy cures, if the ski tops are dark I color the end of the dowel with a black sharpie, slather a lttle more epoxy over that for extra sealing, the ski will be sealed and the ends of the dowels will be quite un-noticable from any distance, often a binding will be covering the end of the dowel any how so you won't see the end
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  3. #3353
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    Bought a few Swiss cheese skis over the years and mounted about that close. In one case I even drilled half of the old repaired hole. I would not use epoxy for that.

    Instead: wood dowel + actual Tite bond wood glue...

    Never had a spinner and I cranked pretty damn hard on the suspect holes. I've even taken the bindings off of those skis several times. No issues.

    I use roo glue or epoxy to mount the actual bindings, but Swiss cheese repairs are designed to emulate wood, and that's exactly what Tite Bond wood glue is designed to do. I'm not a chemical engineer and maybe someone has a smarter thought, but this has worked very well in the most precarious of mounting situations (i.e. overlapping holes).



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  4. #3354
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattig View Post
    Instead: wood dowel + actual Tite bond wood glue...
    ...
    I use roo glue or epoxy to mount the actual bindings, but Swiss cheese repairs are designed to emulate wood, and that's exactly what Tite Bond wood glue is designed to do.
    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    Not trying to beat you up and it's hard to argue with real-life experience ... but I'll simply note that PVA glues like Tite Bond have *very low* strength in situations where it's filling a gap. [meaning a joint that exceeds a few thousandths of an inch.] Epoxy is vastly better.

    Funny enough, I saw a recent glue comparison, and CA glues actually beat out epoxies in a really wide variety of tests. I'm not sure that data applies to skis and plugging old holes, but it was certainly interesting. The CA glues seriously kicked ass in nearly every application - even the cheap dime-store CA glue was pretty damn incredible.

    Anyway - IMO, plugging old holes is almost by definition a gap-filling operation and the long cure times and gap filling abilities of epoxy seem the most ideal.

    The other issue is water infiltration. PVA glues are terrible when exposed to water. Using them to permanently plug holes would greatly concern me. Using a PVA to seal the screw threads still seems less than ideal, but far less critical then sealing a previous mounting hole.

    Again, it's hard to argue with what's worked. I'm glad it's worked out for you. I, personally, would not choose PVA for plugging old mounts.

    Edited to add:
    And the glue bond in a ski, when filling an old mount hole, is essentially end-grain to side grain. (The wood grain in a ski is running from tip to tail, and the dowel is running from top to bottom.) Gluing in these situations is also tricky and I'd expect an epoxy to perform better.

  5. #3355
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    Great info as usual, thanks gents

  6. #3356
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    Was a good boy this year Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #3357
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    Quote Originally Posted by CascadeLuke View Post
    Was a good boy this year Click image for larger version. 

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    What are those? Not recognizing the topsheet. Looks like some metal in there, from the chips?

  8. #3358
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregorys View Post
    Not trying to beat you up and it's hard to argue with real-life experience ... but I'll simply note that PVA glues like Tite Bond have *very low* strength in situations where it's filling a gap. [meaning a joint that exceeds a few thousandths of an inch.] Epoxy is vastly better.

    Funny enough, I saw a recent glue comparison, and CA glues actually beat out epoxies in a really wide variety of tests. I'm not sure that data applies to skis and plugging old holes, but it was certainly interesting. The CA glues seriously kicked ass in nearly every application - even the cheap dime-store CA glue was pretty damn incredible.

    Anyway - IMO, plugging old holes is almost by definition a gap-filling operation and the long cure times and gap filling abilities of epoxy seem the most ideal.

    The other issue is water infiltration. PVA glues are terrible when exposed to water. Using them to permanently plug holes would greatly concern me. Using a PVA to seal the screw threads still seems less than ideal, but far less critical then sealing a previous mounting hole.

    Again, it's hard to argue with what's worked. I'm glad it's worked out for you. I, personally, would not choose PVA for plugging old mounts.

    Edited to add:
    And the glue bond in a ski, when filling an old mount hole, is essentially end-grain to side grain. (The wood grain in a ski is running from tip to tail, and the dowel is running from top to bottom.) Gluing in these situations is also tricky and I'd expect an epoxy to perform better.
    Hmm... Well, maybe it'll catastrophically fail some day.

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  9. #3359
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregorys View Post
    .
    Funny enough, I saw a recent glue comparison, and CA glues actually beat out epoxies in a really wide variety of tests. I'm not sure that data applies to skis and plugging old holes, but it was certainly interesting. The CA glues seriously kicked ass in nearly every application - even the cheap dime-store CA glue
    And the glue bond in a ski, when filling an old mount hole, is essentially end-grain to side grain. (The wood grain in a ski is running from tip to tail, and the dowel is running from top to bottom.) Gluing in these situations is also tricky and I'd expect an epoxy to perform better.
    first of all wtf is a CA glue ? if one is going to use an acronym shouldn't one have used the complete word at least once, cuz I don't see it anywhere and I havent a fucking clue what a CA is ?

    re: the end grain to side grade and the whole idea of drilling holes in things and expecting to restore strength 100%

    lets take a 12" gluelam beam drill 31 holes of a proportional size to a binding screw, is it still OK to use in a building and would an engineer pass it ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  10. #3360
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    first of all wtf is a CA glue ? if one is going to use an acronym shouldn't one have used the complete word at least once, cuz I don't see it anywhere and I havent a fucking clue what a CA is ?

    re: the end grain to side grade and the whole idea of drilling holes in things and expecting to restore strength 100%

    lets take a 12" gluelam beam drill 31 holes of a proportional size to a binding screw, is it still OK to use in a building and would an engineer pass it ?
    basically super glue

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate

    google CA glue it's hip right now, especially in woodworking circles.

  11. #3361
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    Fuck I should have known that eh

    Actualy I know what superglue is

    I get tired of acronyms on TGR where I have to ask myself wtf is that ?

    rant over eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  12. #3362
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    first of all wtf is a CA glue ? if one is going to use an acronym shouldn't one have used the complete word at least once, cuz I don't see it anywhere and I havent a fucking clue what a CA is ?
    Cyanoacrylate Glue. Aka super glue and the like. CA is a pretty common term in woodworking/carpentry.

    It’s not great for filling voids though and really only works well when thinly applied, so I’d stick with epoxy for skis. Ymmv


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  13. #3363
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayItLeo View Post
    Cyanoacrylate Glue. Aka super glue and the like. CA is a pretty common term in woodworking/carpentry.

    It’s not great for filling voids though and really only works well when thinly applied, so I’d stick with epoxy for skis. Ymmv

    ETA: well shit, dude beat me to it. Carry on.

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  14. #3364
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    Well I thot it was a chartered accountant and so I Thot I was going to have to come up with a whole new set of jokes for CA's as opposed to DDS jokes

    I'm gona start using acronyms that don't mean any thing just to fuck people's shit up
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  15. #3365
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlayItLeo View Post
    Cyanoacrylate Glue. Aka super glue and the like. CA is a pretty common term in woodworking/carpentry.

    It’s not great for filling voids though and really only works well when thinly applied, so I’d stick with epoxy for skis. Ymmv


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ^^^ this ^^^

    It's popular with luthiers. One trick they have is to fill nut slots with a baking soda and CA glue. I saw one video where if you tapped it, it would crack like glass. Works well for fixing nuts you filed too deeply (string buzz), but sounds like the last thing you'd want to plug a ski with.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  16. #3366
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    The tight fitting dowel plus titebond III effectively replicates the physical properties of the wood itself. The dowel is plugging the hole. The glue is holding it there. Titebond 3 is different than titebond 1. New hole for new binding is then drilled and epoxy was used for the actual mounting of said binding.

    Maybe this doesn't make sense in theory or on paper, but it worked. Definitely sounds like no one else should ever do it ever again though.

    Let's talk about minwax wood putty next!

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  17. #3367
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    EDIT: Never mind, I am in fact a hungover moron. I figured it out.

    Mounting Vipecs on the previously pictured Swiss cheese skis for Ms. HAB. Swiss bindings seemed like an appropriate pairing. Haven't dealt with these in a while. I'm probably just hungover/smoking crack, but I did a test mount and the heel is way too far back. The boot position is where I want it, so the toe is good. Did a search but didn't find much, and Fritschi's instructions are useless. Two questions:

    1. The min/max boot length adjustment markings on the heel track are meant to to be used when the heel is in ski mode, right? Since the heel piece moves on the track when you toggle between ski and walk mode I'm not sure which I'm supposed to be checking against.
    2. Actually that's my only question. I should probably just have some more coffee and do this when my brain's working well enough to count to two, huh?
    Last edited by HAB; 01-01-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  18. #3368
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    Yeah. Chuck the screw in a drill and reduce the diameter (not the height) of the head against a file/die grinder/belt sander.

    The stock screws are small heads, which have become unobtanium in M5 screws for inserts.
    Noticeable difference pre and post grind. Thanks.

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  19. #3369
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    Maybe you took a short cut and it worked OR

    https://www.google.com/search?client...&bih=632&dpr=1

    Image result ^^ for the swiss cheese model


    Swiss cheesing a ski is actulay the perfect analogy for " the swiss cheese model " for failure, in the Swiss cheese model, an organisation's defenses against failure are modeled as a series of barriers, represented as slices of cheese. The holes in the slices represent weaknesses in individual parts of the system and are continually varying in size and position across the slices.

    Also works for HW failure, car accidents, the 737 MAX or anywhere you might get away with 1 mistake but 3 happen at once maybe you are FUBARed ?

    I have seen a ski swiss cheesed to destruction, buddy had elongating existing binding screw holes to put cants under the binding AND it was a foam core slalom ski AND he was a 280lb wild man with banzai ski style AND it was a very steep mogul field AND the ski snapped clean in half ... when all the AND s lined up the ski failed

    Take away any AND , maybe the ski would not have broke

    which is why best practices help avoid failure
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  20. #3370
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    PSA: Mount your own fucking skis.

    I’m gonna throw in support for Titebond III:
    It flexes; it adheres to wood appropriately; it is waterproof.

    Agree on the Swiss cheese model — there’s a point at which you’ve created weaknesses in the original matrix that act as catalysts for failure. Pretending a specific glue solves this is deluding oneself. All we’re doing with filling holes is helping create a solidity that helps prevent a screw pullout, no more. It isn’t helping the ski’s continuity as a structure.

  21. #3371
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    What are those? Not recognizing the topsheet. Looks like some metal in there, from the chips?
    Looks like a Kastle FX106 HP.

  22. #3372
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    I’m gonna throw in support for Titebond III:
    It flexes; it adheres to wood appropriately; it is waterproof.

    Agree on the Swiss cheese model — there’s a point at which you’ve created weaknesses in the original matrix that act as catalysts for failure. Pretending a specific glue solves this is deluding oneself. All we’re doing with filling holes is helping create a solidity that helps prevent a screw pullout, no more. It isn’t helping the ski’s continuity as a structure.
    My biggest concern with Swiss cheese would be the inability to flex the same way as a continuous piece of wood. As far as strength goes, the glue is stronger than the wood anyway.

    I was looking for a link to back up that claim and stumbled across the following: https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.html . Not sure how scientific that is, but it's pretty fuckin interesting in the context of all the above flack.

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  23. #3373
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    ergo we could just build skis out of glue ?

    or is that what a foam core ski is ?

    and how much do we love that ?

    what exactly is strongth any way ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  24. #3374
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattig View Post
    https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue.html . Not sure how scientific that is, but it's pretty fuckin interesting in the context of all the above flack.
    From the foot notes of the citation above.:
    I have since found out that 48 hours at 18 degrees may not be enough time for epoxy to reach its full strength, so my results may not be representative of fully cured epoxy glue.
    The test I reference above tested TB-III (Tite Bond III) in a wet environment. I know TB claims it's waterproof, but the tests I've seen show very poor performance in wet environments. How applicable those tests are to plugging ski mounts is debatable. I just know I'd never use TB in any situation where I expected any moisture in any application.


    If you're interested - see this at the 12:10 mark.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoaTZY5cSQE

    The TLDR version is: The TB-III (and TB-II and regular TB) test pieces were simply left outdoors in the rain/snow/cold/frost. The test blocks failed, mostly, before they could even be put into the load-test apparatus.

    Still all that said - how all that testing applies in this particular application is pretty unknown.

  25. #3375
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    I appreciate the extra research and clarification. I think the tests aren't ever going to apply perfectly to this application.

    My only research = several years of bindings going on and off the ski with no spinners on the 4 holes in question. That said, I don't think the adhesive matters much for that purpose as long as the dowels stay put.

    Next throw away ski I have, maybe I'll do a few pull out tests with overlapping screw holes. I'll be more careful this time as the last time I failed a pull out test, it was very costly. Screw holes didn't overlap in that case , thankfully.

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