To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[RoooR]

[QUOTE=Kinnikinnick;6358661]

Now you are intentionally eroding the point.

Dont get vaxxed = dont get insured for the hospitalization costs.

If you start adding lifestyle choices then the consequence would be so broad that it wont have the desired incentive.


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Lot's of insurance plans already do this though. They don't phase it as a higher rate for unhealthy people. They give a "discount" if you link your fitbit, garmin, etc and meet fitness goals.

[old_newguy]

The point is that society could wake up and say “hey we don’t want to insure your health costs related to your motorcycle accident because it’s 27x more likely to result in a serious injury or death”.

Take you pick of other risky or not socially desirable activity. Skiing, mountaineering, etc

[Flounder]

Take you pick of other risky or not socially desirable activity. Skiing, mountaineering, etc

The issue for these risky behaviors and smoking/obesity comparisons is that there isn’t a two shot treatment that provides 90%+ reduction of risks for those activities. If there was a vaccine that eliminated 99% of deaths from wing suiting I bet insurance companies would require it for coverage.

[jono]

The point is that society could wake up and say “hey we don’t want to insure your health costs related to your motorcycle accident because it’s 27x more likely to result in a serious injury or death”.

Take you pick of other risky or not socially desirable activity. Skiing, mountaineering, etc

So be it. You feel kinship with others who want to offload their risk to society because you want to offload your own. Too bad. Accept the risks you create. That's what personal responsibility means and you can't keep a free society without assigning responsibility to those who are free to choose.

[MontuckyFried]

The point is that society could wake up and say “hey we don’t want to insure your health costs related to your motorcycle accident because it’s 27x more likely to result in a serious injury or death”.

Take you pick of other risky or not socially desirable activity. Skiing, mountaineering, etc

Isn't that kind of the case with life insurance? Skyrocketing costs or straight up denials of coverage if you're into things such as skydiving.

[Kinnikinnick]

Can we also recognize that leaving the unvaxxed to their own misguided future represents a huge potential financial liability for society. ER's, ventilators and therapeutics are unbelievably expensive and it would be wrong to assume that each patient pays their own way or has sufficient insurance coverage.

Versus what?

Mandating vaccinations at the federal level?

You argue against it without proffering any viable alternative to save society those same costs. Financial incentive to vax = 0


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[old_newguy]

The issue for these risky behaviors and smoking/obesity comparisons is that there isn’t a two shot treatment that provides 90%+ reduction of risks for those activities. If there was a vaccine that eliminated 99% of deaths from wing suiting I bet insurance companies would require it for coverage.

Well, it’s pretty easy to say “we aren’t covering your care because you are a smoker, eat like shit, etc” but I’m pretty sure we just fought a huge political battle so we don’t have to think about pre-existing conditions now.

I mean, it incurring an injury skiing is easy. Just don’t ski. That’s 100% effective.

(I’m 100% vaccinated by the way, I just think that this approach is highly unlikely to get the response you are looking for. You are just going to get stupid shit back like “healthcare insurers don’t have to cover injuries incurred at a protest” etc)

[Mazderati]

People are only interested in how much healthcare costs them. They could care less how much healthcare costs society.

[huckbucket]

Financial incentive to vax = 0

Not sure I understand this comment. There's actually a very large societal incentive to vax as I explained. Just as there's an incentive to quit smoking. Maybe you mean something different? And I support the French model of "incentivizing" vaccination in order to engage in public because this avoids the dreaded "mandate" word and still gives people the freedum they desire. However, we all know red states will fight back on such a proposal with every idiotic bone in their body.

[The AD]

All pronunciations of the word "normalcy" in this context are wrong (a malapropism). It's been pissing me off for 16 months and counting.

Seems like it's been used that way for the last century, so I think that definition is pretty entrenched into the English language at this point.

(for the record the woman in the commercial pronounces it "nor-mal-a-see." She probably also refers to "ath-a-letes." )

[huckbucket]

Isn't that kind of the case with life insurance? Skyrocketing costs or straight up denials of coverage if you're into things such as skydiving.

Comparing life insurance with health insurance on any level is inappropriate. One is essential and the other is a luxury.

[Kinnikinnick]

Not sure I understand this comment. There's actually a very large societal incentive to vax as I explained. Just as there's an incentive to quit smoking. Maybe you mean something different? And I support the French model of "incentivizing" vaccination in order to engage in public because this avoids the dreaded "mandate" word and still gives people the freedum they desire. However, we all know red states will fight back on such a proposal with every idiotic bone in their body.

“Societal incentive?” You mean social pressure? Thats precisely the opposite of the antisocial Behavior that defines the unvaxxed. Only afraid of the chance of side effect on themselves or in full frontal obstinate resistance to doing whats right for society.


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[old_newguy]

Arkansas for example has forbidden healthcare providers from requiring employees get vaccinated until 2 years after the vaccines are fully approved. Two years. What are the odds you get any traction if you try to force it via financial incentives?

[huckbucket]

“Societal incentive?” You mean social pressure? Thats precisely the opposite of the antisocial Behavior that defines the unvaxxed. Only afraid of the chance of side effect on themselves or in full frontal obstinate resistance to doing whats right for society.

As I said, we should have national laws that prevent the unvaccinated from mingling in high-density locations. So not social pressure but actual laws.

You think the unvaxxed are anti-social? It's pretty clear that rising case rates across the country, but specifically in regions where vaccination rates are lower disproves this.

[MontuckyFried]

Comparing life insurance with health insurance on any level is inappropriate. One is essential and the other is a luxury.

Ok. Fair enough. With health insurance though, doesn't one typically pay higher premiums if they're a smoker/drinker?

[Kinnikinnick]

As I said, we should have national laws that prevent the unvaccinated from mingling in high-density locations. So not social pressure but actual laws.

You think the unvaxxed are anti-social? It's pretty clear that rising case rates across the country, but specifically in regions where vaccination rates are lower disproves this.

Anti social behavior doesnt mean that they dont socialize, thats Asocial behavior

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour


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[huckbucket]

Ok. Fair enough. With health insurance though, doesn't one typically pay higher premiums if they're a smoker/drinker?

Of course. There are tiered levels of insurability based on lifestyle and a full-on health exam including blood tests.
Proposing such a thing for health insurance is extremely complicated. For example, how could fairly distinguish between predisposing conditions versus lifestyle habits in order to adjust cost? That's one of 50 issues although I'm sure health insurance companies have been probing this concept for a long, long time as a means of dropping high-risk clients.

[huckbucket]

Anti social behavior doesnt mean that they dont socialize, thats Asocial behavior

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour


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Right. My comment still stands. Can't be social pressure alone.

[wooley12]

Comparing life insurance with health insurance on any level is inappropriate. One is essential and the other is a luxury.

Both products use actuarial data to insure profitability. And I have seen both life and health insurance described as luxury products. Which do you see as a luxury?

[huckbucket]

Both products use actuarial data to insure profitability. And I have seen both life and health insurance described as luxury products. Which do you see as a luxury?

I think you can guess based on my response to MF.

[wooley12]

Many believe healthcare is not a right so like most yes/no questions the answer is "It depends".

Anyhoo, only 10% wearing masks at my local Kroger's and they were giving away free bottles of Kroger branded disinfectant at the checkout. The clerk who wore an industrial strength mask for the past year seemed to think the pandemic was over. The mask I was wearing has a German idiom that means "THE WORST IS YET TO COME" but I didn't tell her.

[Benny Profane]

]

And drinkers. And people who eat like shit. And people who don’t get enough sleep.

How about reckless skiers, which is a redundant phrase to non skiers?

[basinbeater]

Many believe healthcare is not a right so...

Yep. Many feel that way. And vote accordingly, universal health care is socialism they cry!

But when they get sick from covid because they are also anti vax, well, all of sudden their tune changes.



sent from Utah.

[old goat]

That sounds good, however, if you pull up your favorite graphs of daily infections and vaccination level, there is no support for that position. In the US, from mid-Jan to mid-Feb 2021, fully vaxxed was under 10%, however this is the time of greatest fall in daily cases. From mid-Feb to mid-Apr, fully vaxxed continued to rise, however daily cases also rose. If vaccination was primarily driving the drop in cases, neither of these patterns would occur. Also, consider India, a country with minimal vaccination and lots of delta. Cases there have fallen rapidly despite minimal vaccination. This is why I say vaccination has a small influence on case rates.

I propose instead that human behavior primarily explains surges and drops in daily Covid cases. We began in 2020 with no precautions, business as usual. Infections soared. We panicked and had lockdowns, infections plummeted. We slowly relaxed precautions, cases slowly climbed then soared. We locked down and wore masks, cases plummeted again. Now we're in Biden's freedom era, not that he had much choice.

Currently, US fully vaccinated hovers below 50%. The original prognostications said we needed 70-80% vaxxed to stop the pandemic. We're short. If everyone returns to schools, worksites, bars, concerts, and dinner with friends, even Wuhan classic would thrive. I will not be surprised if Fall brings overflowing ICUs.

It's not that simple--people get vaccinated and a month later cases fall.
First of all--until delta came along, one vax was good protection. Second--the first people to get vaccinated were HCW;s and nursing home patients--the highest risk for contracting the virus and the most frequently tested. No doubt there have been changes in behavior that may influence rates but I don't believe there has been a significant change in behavior between the winter peak and the summer low. No doubt increase opening and decrease masks this summer have contributed to the rise in cases but not as much as delta. My guess is that without delta we would have seen a plateau, not a continued fall.

[Ted Striker]

Yep. Many feel that way. And vote accordingly, universal health care is socialism they cry!

But when they get sick from covid because they are also anti vax, well, all of sudden their tune changes.

Yeah, Americans are only against socialism for others.

Getting back to vaccines for a moment, an open question to the fully vaxxed collective: how comfortable are you in public places - especially indoors - mingling with the teeming masses?

Where I am, everywhere other than medical facilities and restaurants, covid protocols have pretty much ended. Social distancing is a thing of the past, and mask usage is maybe ten percent.

Are you confident that you're well enough protected by immunization to forego the mask while indoors with the unvaccinated?