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04-01-2019, 12:11 PM #1
Tech/tele boot hybrid / "tech telemark" binding?
After just racing the Grand Traverse, I realize how completely inappropriate even the lightest skimo-style AT setup is for that sort of travel (37 miles with only 8300' of climbing). It was hateful beyond words but, like anything unpleasant, some stupid part of me wants to do it again, better. What I am wondering is: is there a light (~1kg) boot with tech fittings + a forefoot bellows like a tele boot? I think some sort of "tech telemark" binding hybrid, combined with an ultralight fishscale ski (either a Voile Objective BC in a short length or a metal-edged XC ski with fishscales) would be the ticket for this sort of terrain, bringing skins only for the occasional "real" climb; but, doing this sort of travel in ordinary AT boots sucks, for nordic-style striding/gliding you really want at worst a tele-boot level of boot flex. Most ordinary tele boots are fucking heavy though, and I suck ass at (and thus hate) making telemark turns... so for any actual ski descents, I'd want to fix my heels. For the rolling stuff, rather than skiing downhill with skins on in walk mode (which sucks ass), or making a thousand transitions that even my rando-commando self does not want to do, it would be great to be able to say, flip one boot lever and tele down on fishscales.
I have seen this binding: https://www.campsaver.com/telemark-t...TFF-TTSS-LARGE
It seems to me that you could use a skimo race binding (eg Plum 150 or similar) and keep just the tele cable from that setup there, leave the Plum 150 in flat mode and tele/fishscale, then rotate the binding to ski mode and still engage the heel pins? This would require a boot with a foreboot bellows and a tech heel... maybe like a TLT5? I think Scarpa had something remotely like this. Does anyone know?
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04-01-2019, 12:20 PM #2
The former versions of the Scarpa F1 and F3 had bellows. They are highly sought after in the tele community to pair with TTS bindings though so good luck finding a pair.
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04-01-2019, 01:02 PM #3Registered User
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If you want to get creative-
This guy is using cut down mercuries for Alaska bushwacking-
http://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.ph...=1407&start=10
Inspired by him I started but got no further than modding my TLT5s- Full ramble here-
http://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.ph...nrothar#p26355
For mellow Downhills/skating I considered trying th ephantom split board ski mode which uses a voile strap through a slot to give a loose heel lock down.
see here halfway down-
https://www.wildsnow.com/22114/phant...g-term-review/
Sorry for links, can't seem to post the photos direct. Feel free to put photos up if you can.
Lack of local snow and time derailed this project . Will try to work on it next season
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04-01-2019, 03:20 PM #4
Praxis RX
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04-01-2019, 03:45 PM #5Registered User
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The scarpa f1 carbon comes in at about 1100g in some versions, but is sort of a unicorn. I have and tele on some of the f1s that come in more around 1600g. My diy TTS setup comes in at about 600g total (including leashes and mounts for voile crampons), so also not that light. I could get it about 150g lighter by using some race toes and losing the shims. The lightest tts iterations I have seen are just above 400g, so still not really in the ballpark of the 300g binding thread.
I have them mounted on some voile vector BCs and it is a fantastic setup for tours with flat approaches or exits. Its so nice to get to the bottom of the run, just pop the heel cable off and start kicking out sans transition. Scaled skis with TTS are the tits.
The major issue is skiability. It might not be an issue for the GT where you don't do as much skiing, but the bindings don't actually ski all that well due to the limitations of the currently available parts. Unlike a 75mm boot that gets a lot of leverage from that big ole duckbill, the tech boots just pivot on the pins, requiring a much more rearward pivot point to get a similar feel. Current spring cartridges are designed for 75mm bindings with more forward pivot points, and so when setup on a TTS binding they bottom out. The smaller your boot the more luck you will have, but even with my 26.5 boots I haven't found a combination that I am happy with. I am using the medium flex kreuzspitze cartridges (some of the longest travel cartridges available), and I want to go lower than the binding allows. Its not that I have a really low style, its that the bindings have such little activity (even with a -57mm pivot point) that I want to go lower to feel more stable. I can rip on leather boots and pins, but when I do I am going much lower than I do on my NTN setups. I've experimented with more rearward pivot points and they provide a better feel but even further limit range of motion. This setup skis fine in easy snow for me but as a spring skiing setup where I encounter suncupped bullshit and firm steeps occasionally, they have been a bit scary.
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04-01-2019, 03:48 PM #6Registered User
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04-01-2019, 04:02 PM #7
Why do you feel you need to fix your heels to make alpine turns on tele gear? I spent many years on tele gear and half my turns were alpine, just depending on the situation or my mood. I did not find it hard to make quality high speed alpine turns without having fixed heels. You do want bindings with a certain amount of torsional rigidity to minimize any side-to-side slop, but any modern plastic duckbill boot/cable binding combo will work fine.
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04-01-2019, 04:26 PM #8Registered User
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04-01-2019, 04:42 PM #9
Well, my thought was more along the lines of "I'd like to be able to have some vaguely tele-feel with the heel unlocked in my AT setup"... I am not a tele skier, and making alpine turns on tele gear sucks in my experience. I guess I feel like I'm coming from AT toward possibly a partially-tele setup, not the other way around. If the choice were between tele (making AT turns on tele gear) and AT (dealing with AT gear in rolling terrain) I'd probably still go AT.
It does seem mechanically possible to, if I had an old green scarpa F1, use a tech toe/heel with the tele heel cable for the best of both worlds on say, a fishscale Voile objective... but the juice may not be worth the squeeze I guess.
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04-01-2019, 05:01 PM #10
The latest version of the Meidjo binding has a lockable tech heel, like Dynafit. Light bindings, too.
https://www.the-m-equipment.com/en/c...-alpin-heelset
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04-01-2019, 05:35 PM #11
It really doesn't suck. How much have you done it? More than once I skied with alpine skiers and they never even knew I was on tele gear, and when they realized it they were very surprised. Based purely on my turns, they had no idea. Granted I'm the best skier on TGR but that's beside the point.
However, I've never done it on NTN gear, and I don't think it would work as well. I think the duckbill part of the boot being secured into the metal front piece of the binding really provides the rigidity needed. Crank the cables tight and you're good to go. I've never been sold on the whole NTN concept anyway, but I've never skied it, just basing my opinion on friends who have switched and IMO did not ski as well. Probably a separate thread topic though.
Anyway, just a suggestion, good luck in your quest.
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04-01-2019, 05:49 PM #12
I skied a few years on the east coast in tele gear, basically making alpine turns... I still blame that period for how often I get in the back seat these days. You can never put any forward pressure on your boot or you go over the handlebars! I mean you can survive doing it, but imo anyway it is highly suboptimal. It's all relative I suppose - it is obviously better than skiing AT gear without the heel locked, and better than any type of nordic gear. But I feel a thousand times more confident even on the chintziest skimo gear with heel-locked than I do on a burly tele setup. (again: I really suck at dropping the knee)
edit: anyway, for the somewhat academic purposes of this post, I'm just curious of this type of hybrid is possible. If I were a strong tele skier I would just use a light tele / fishscale setup; if I were a strong nordic skier, nordic gear is clearly the most efficient for this sort of travel. But I do all my skiing on light AT gear, so was hoping for a compromise which included a fixed-heel option...
That is pretty cool.
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04-01-2019, 06:13 PM #13Registered User
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04-01-2019, 06:14 PM #14
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04-01-2019, 06:27 PM #15Meadowskipping old fart
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04-01-2019, 07:09 PM #16
Those are interesting observations on alpine turns/tele gear. Not my experience at all though. I never felt compelled to stay in the back seat, I actually felt like it was quite natural to keep the weight on the forward half of my feet and drive the turns, or at the very least centered. The only time my heel really left the ski was between turns when I unweighted--it made kind of a clacking noise that I liked lol. The boots were pretty beefy, though, Scarpa T1's, lots of support and a stiff duckbill. And I never did it on a rockered ski either, only traditional camber, so that may have helped. Between the 1980s and 2000s I switched back and forth between tele gear and alpine gear maybe 4 times, sticking with each for several years before switching back. Been on alpine gear for the past 7-8 years and obviously I love it but I do sometimes miss having the option of dropping a knee whenever I feel like it.
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04-01-2019, 07:17 PM #17Registered User
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Rumor has it Crispi is working on a lightweight, carbon upper tele boot with tech inserts. Source = Crispi US disbtributo Telemarkdown: https://www.facebook.com/telemarkdow...3313048715923/
PS - parallel turns work great on NTN gear. Not just heavy Rottafella -- the OMG TTS system with Dynafit toes parallels really well too, with the cable pivot set back to be more active.
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04-01-2019, 07:51 PM #18
Tech/tele boot hybrid / "tech telemark" binding?
Sure, you can do it and get used to it. And I skied some 40º+ descents making parallel turns on tele gear. But I would RATHER not, hence this thread. The "it is possible to convince me to go tele" era of my life has ended
^ those crispis look pretty neat though.
and fwiw, it could be a cool quiver setup... big spring days, big range traverses (Oquirrh, La Sal, etc)
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04-01-2019, 08:03 PM #19Registered User
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I ski the bellowed f1 and defender(f3) with the first linked tts binding. I also use the same boots with vipec bindings.
Can't actually telemark the defender boots(bellows still too stiff) but, f1s work fine. I use Voile cables with a "backcountry", less active spring installed. Did have to spend some time adjusting the mount so's I could actually make telemark turns.
I change from switchback telemark bindings, tts and tech toes depending on snow conditions or how I feel with minimal, maybe a few turns, getting used to.
Old guy, over 60, telemark since mid seventies, at since early 80s. I prefer ski touring with a bellowed boot and free heel binding.
edit to add: I don't use the linked tts toe piece. It is a piece of shit.
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04-01-2019, 08:55 PM #20Registered User
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04-01-2019, 08:57 PM #21Registered User
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If you don't want to go as radical as the boot mods I posted, a TLT 5 with the rivets removed at the forefoot flex area would probably get you what you are looking for.
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04-01-2019, 09:14 PM #22
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04-01-2019, 09:39 PM #23Registered User
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I defer to others re best boot/binding combination for racing the GT. Some comments on tech tele -
The guy who came out with that binding deserves a shit ton of credit for making telemark light again. But, the toes on that binding blow, unless you like popping out while in locked and touring.
You can get that set up as a "conversion kit" (everything but the the toes) and then use Dynafit Speed Rad toes or their equivalent. Then, it's no problem, except for deep telemark turns where the cables bottom out, unless you get the long and soft ones, but those are pretty squishy.
Kreuzspitze has a sweet system that also allows for a locking heel. It's spendy and available at skimo.com, and that doesn't include the toes, heels, or heel throws -- more spendy, but it's very well made and very dependable, though rotating the heel pieces between touring and lockdown is brutish. The hole pattern on that kit is compatible with both Dynafit Rad 1.0 and the older 5-hole Vertical pattern. My wife has that set up, and while she spends most days on Marker Kingpins, she breaks these out when conditions are meh or in the spring/rock season -- for tele, the heel throws stay in your pack until you reach the top and then easily pop on.
You can find Scarpa F3s (also sold as the Defender) somewhat easily on the Web. F1s, F1 Races, and F1 Carbons are somewhat rarer, in increasing order. The F1 Carbons seem to be as common as sasquatch within the U.S. For a fair amount of money, you can get the F1 Races here.
The walk mechanism on the F1s may interfere with some tele heel levers. I'm told it works with the OMG heel levers (same as ones you found at Campsaver).
As previously mentioned, the F1s do not ski nearly as well as the Tx or Tx Pro boots. You can make tele turns in them, but definitely more challenging and a bit squirrelier.
At the end of the day, if the goal is for a great touring boot with a natural stride, I'd nix the tele part and get the F1 Races to match with a pair of light AT bindings. You'd just need one of those pucks so you don't compress your way out of the bindings in bumpy terrain -- I may have a spare pair somewhere. My size 28 Races weigh about 1220g per boot. The original liner is super thin and the liners from the regular F1s are, IMO, more comfortable and slightly stiffer.Last edited by dschane; 04-02-2019 at 12:36 AM.
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04-01-2019, 09:49 PM #24Meadowskipping old fart
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Rocker launch is nothing to do with the ski being rockered. It is the combination of the binding and the rocker in the boot sole - some boots in some bindings leave the heel of the boot well above the surface of the ski. Not an issue for tele turns where the heel of front foot is lifted anyway and rear is weighted back. Parallel turns feel like being on tip toes.
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04-01-2019, 09:52 PM #25Registered User
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I believe I have the f1 comps? Or races? They are circa 2006 from my research. My pair tele really quite well. It was pretty suprising how well they worked actually, I find them to be similar in skiability to a scarpa TX. The bindings are the major short coming imo. Whether in my TXs or F1s I haven't had good luck in shitty snow.
On the perfect GT setup: I'm pretty sure the course record was set on skate skis, but if I were to do it I would use low leathers and pins on a pair of shorter/fatter waxable xcd skis. Like a 180cm Karhu Guide or Catamount. The voile objective could work as well. No transition time for the bindings or boots, only when you need to put on skins. (I am not that familiar woth the course but assume you need skins at some point or another) A true double cambered xcd ski would dominate the flatter sections, but I have yet to master skiing anything but groomed slopes on skis that skinny/cambered. A slightly fatter ski with some tip rocker and sidecut would make a world of difference for the downs.
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