Lost Season Five

**Affix Snow** · 05-06-2009, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin

Faraday kept saying you can't change the past, you can't change the past. Then he goes an tries to change the past, only to secure it to actually happen.

He does say that it is THEIR present though....and he talks about variables...and how they can make their own destiny.

**Greydon Clark** · 05-07-2009, 12:19 PM

Kate’s character is swirling the drain.

doughboyshredder · 05-07-2009, 12:27 PM

I think it's pretty obvious now that they are stuck in some kind of time loop. The reason I say this is the interaction between locke / alpert / locke.

If they can actually change the future (of the island so that there will be no plane crash) they still cannot change their past. Therefore this reveals there must be multiple timelines that coexist.

So, they can't change their past, but they can create a new timeline(s) where other versions of themselves will not have to endure the wreck and all of the problems associated with it.

I really don't see an out at this point for the writers. Either they are stuck in an unalterable time loop, where the outcome of each event, but maybe not the intricacies are already set in stone, or there are multiple timelines (universes) existing in the same space.

You can't change your past, but you can change the future, which creates a different past for a different you.

**johngenx** · 05-07-2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

Kate’s character is swirling the drain.

So true. She needs to get back to wandering around on the beach in her underwear. Evangaline Lilly is far too hot for clothes. I'm surprised they don't spontaneously burst into flames, leaving her perpetually nekkid. That is what would happen were I writing the show.

**leroy jenkins** · 05-07-2009, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin

Faraday kept saying you can't change the past, you can't change the past. Then he goes an tries to change the past, only to secure it to actually happen. I doubt Jack & company are going to successfully detonate the nuke.

Yea, that whole thing seemed dumb, and it seemed way out of character for Faraday to be pointing a gun at Alpert, giving ultimatums, especially when its obvious he wouldn't survive shooting Alpert.

What I don't get, is how all these things that are necessary for flight 815 to end up on the island, are also depended on it? How could Locke wind up on the island if, in order for him to get there, he has to have already been there?

Locke, Jacob, etc ("modern" times) is where the story has legs. I think it's entirely possible that everyone back in 1977 dies, or makes it off the island, or otherwise is removed from the storyline.

**peterslovo** · 05-14-2009, 07:33 AM

So what'd everyone think about the finale last night? Good lead into the final season?

**The AD** · 05-14-2009, 08:06 AM

I didn't think it was great, but certainly sets the stage well for the final season. Who exactly is Jacob's rival who has taken on Locke's body and why couldn't he kill him without a "loophole?" What is Jacob's purpose in visiting all the characters off the island? What will be the outcome of the Swan explosion?

I was glad they brought Rose and Bernard back, but what about Claire and Christian Shephard? Was the hut Rose and Bernard built the same one later used by Bernard and ordered burned by Alana?

**Grange** · 05-14-2009, 08:15 AM

Jack needs to learn how to finish a fight. He'd kicking Sawyers ass and then try to reason with him. It's not like they're kids and when someone screams "uncle" the fights over. However if it were a kids fight Sawyer would have been called out for going to the groin. That's a cheap shot.

**The AD** · 05-14-2009, 08:28 AM

Something just crossed my mind. Could the smoke monster be Jacob's rival and he's able to take on human form and that's how he became the "imposter" Locke? When Smokey appeared to Ben in the temple, after all, Locke conveniently was gone at the time. Then Smokey leaves and all of a sudden Locke appears again. I think the monster found its "loophole" when it found out Ben would do anything to avenge letting Alex be killed. I think it's possible Smokey has been manipulating Ben all along. Maybe the reason Ben never met Jacob is because Smokey has always been telling Ben what to do and posing as the never-seen-by-Ben Jacob.

I also don't think there's anything special about Jacob. I think he's just been on the island a long time and knows more about how to use its time travel properties than anyone else. Perhaps Ben using the name Henry Gale was an allusion to this a few seasons ago. Henry Gale was Dorothy's uncle in the Wizard of Oz. The Wizard of Oz, too, had no real powers, he was just "the man behind the curtain" who was able to manipulate people.

**peterslovo** · 05-14-2009, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by The AD

I didn't think it was great, but certainly sets the stage well for the final season. Who exactly is Jacob's rival who has taken on Locke's body and why couldn't he kill him without a "loophole?" What is Jacob's purpose in visiting all the characters off the island? What will be the outcome of the Swan explosion?

Jacob's rival - biblical reference - Esau? God loved and blessed Jacob, though deceitful, but not Esau. So I'd assume somehow he possesses the dead -i.e., Locke - and potentially others (Christian?) to manipulate. Maybe Jacob was manipulating characters in some way in a good way, and Esau was doing the same in a bad way?

We know they survive because Dr. Chang's arm is injured in some of the videos that he films - presumably at a later time. Maybe the outcome of the explosion is the inability for women to bear children? Some kind of punishment? For what, not sure.

What was the latin that Richard (Ricardus) spoke to Ilana in response to her question?

**The AD** · 05-14-2009, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by peterslovo

What was the latin that Richard (Ricardus) spoke to Ilana in response to her question?

According to Lostpedia it translates to "he who will protect (or save) us all."

**peterslovo** · 05-14-2009, 08:52 AM

OK - some more thoughts...

The first scene is important. Is that ship the Black Rock coming to the Island? Why is Jacob (dressed in white) bringing it to the Island? His rival of course is dressed in black.

i like the idea that Smokey is Jacob's rival...fits with the history of Mr. Eko (wasn't Smokey his brother), the Frenchies/Rousseau (it took the voice of the guy sucked down beneath the tree), etc.

Also, is the loophole having Ben do the killing of Jacob? or manipulating things so that he can get back to kill Jacob in the first place? Or both?

**pappag** · 05-14-2009, 09:11 AM

So who else saw Locke playing Chucky from "Child's Play" throughout this entire season?

AD - you hit it. This is the best explanation I've heard regarding Black Shirt Dude (Esau) and Jacob:

I think that Black Shirt Guy is the personification of the Smoke Monster and related to Jacob, who's the personification of the Island. If the Smoke Monster is there to protect the Island, then there's no way that Black Shirt Guy could kill Jacob unless he found someone else to do it for him. It's like a really bizarre, anthropomorphic Cane and Abel story.

**brraaap802** · 05-14-2009, 09:17 AM

I think AD's nailed it too. Makes sense, and we have to remember that when the first few seasons were on, the writers had no idea they'd make it to a fifth and sixth season so had to figure it out on the fly.

**peterslovo** · 05-14-2009, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by The AD

Something just crossed my mind. Could the smoke monster be Jacob's rival and he's able to take on human form and that's how he became the "imposter" Locke? When Smokey appeared to Ben in the temple, after all, Locke conveniently was gone at the time. Then Smokey leaves and all of a sudden Locke appears again. I think the monster found its "loophole" when it found out Ben would do anything to avenge letting Alex be killed. I think it's possible Smokey has been manipulating Ben all along. Maybe the reason Ben never met Jacob is because Smokey has always been telling Ben what to do and posing as the never-seen-by-Ben Jacob.

I like this thinking.

But...in the scene when they were walking on the beach...wasn't Locke (i'll call him possessed Locke) truly surprised when Ben told him he'd do anything Locke said because Alex (who we assume was Smokey) told Ben that she'd kill him if he didn't? Or was that just a play-along on Locke's part?

**pappag** · 05-14-2009, 09:32 AM

And this is the recap of the beginning scene which seems to tie it all together:

Esau shows up to the beach and exchanges pleasantries with Jacob, who the offers fish but Esau says he just ate. Jacob asks him if he's come for the ship, to which Esau says of course and then asks how they found the island. Jacob says that he'll have to ask the people himself. Esau replies that he doesn't have to ask since he knows that Jacob brought them.

Then the important stuff. Esau says that Jacob's still "trying to prove me wrong." Jacob responds by saying that he is wrong. Esau retorts saying "Am I? They always come, fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same."

Jacob then says that "It only ends once. Any time before that, it's progress."

Then Esau tells Jacob that he really wants to kill him. He says that one day he'll find a loophole. Jacob tells Esau that when that day comes, he'll be waiting there.

Then they exchange farewells.

**The AD** · 05-14-2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by peterslovo

Or was that just a play-along on Locke's part?

It would have to be to make my theory correct!

But it might have also been a way to confirm that Ben was really commited to doing what "Alex" told him to do. Obviously possessed Locke would need to act the way he did in order for Ben to not be suspicious.

**pappag** · 05-14-2009, 09:38 AM

Did anyone else see similarities in the relationship between Esau and Jacob to that of Widmore and Ben? Not only in how they spoke to each other but the fact that they could not kill each other.

**peterslovo** · 05-14-2009, 09:46 AM

Yes to an extent.

Their relationship (Esau/Jacob) and Widmore/Ben is kind of like a yin-yang balancing thing - not necessarily good/evil, maybe.

Also notice how throughout the episode Jacob said "you have a choice" or something similar, while Locke (Esau) was following his "destiny"? This confuses me to an extent with relationships between other characters...Jack is starting to believe he is destined to change things, just like the old Locke used to. But Jack always used to be the one who thought about making choices. I have to collect my thoughts as I think I'm blathering.

**The AD** · 05-14-2009, 09:48 AM

Another thing I found interesting is that Jacob appaered to some of them (Kate, Sawyer, Jack) before they ever went to the island, and to others after they had been to the island (Sayid, Hurley, Locke). Is there some underlying rationale for when he approached each character?

**peterslovo** · 05-14-2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by The AD

Another thing I found interesting is that Jacob appaered to some of them (Kate, Sawyer, Jack) before they ever went to the island, and to others after they had been to the island (Sayid, Hurley, Locke). Is there some underlying rationale for when he approached each character?

Yes - and which ones did he actually touch? Significance?
Locke (shoulder), Kate (face), don't remember about Sawyer or the others.

He gave Sawyer a pen to keep writing his letter, Kate the lunchbox, Jack the candybar, Hurley the case, and Locke the 'faith' to believe in himself? Did he save Sayid from getting hit?

**pappag** · 05-14-2009, 10:06 AM

Not sure what to make of Jacob's appearances to the passengers of Flight 815 since there doesn't seem to be an obvious pattern, but he does appear at the defining moment of their lives:

Kate as a child, when she acquired a sense of not having to face consequences for her misdeeds

Sayid (post-crash), when the love of his life, Nadia, got run over before his eyes

Sawyer, at his father's funeral when he started to compose his life’s mission

Locke, after being tossed out a window and at his lowest moment when he needed a Sense of Purpose to survive

Jack, at the very beginning of his career when he was suffering his first self-doubts and professional issues with his father

Hurley (post-crash), when he had no purpose and believed he was both crazy and cursed

I don't think we can assume these are the only people that Jacob visited.

**otto parts** · 05-14-2009, 10:32 AM

Loved Jacob and the opening scene, and his visits.

And to add to general Kate discussion, Kate with makeup/heels/skirt is just as hot as Kate on beach half nekkid.

Wondering how they will get through the bomb exploding (everybody dying?) vs Candle surviving but sans arm.

**jon turner** · 05-14-2009, 10:34 AM

^^It seems the Dharma doctor survives, because he makes the training videos that talk about the incident. I have no clue what's gonna happen to the Oceanic survivors though...