The Great Resignation ‘21

[Buster Highmen]

If the upshot is, we end up with a fairer society in which shit still gets done I'm all for it. But I think it's pretty possible that instead shit just steadily crumbles from here.

I wonder how our Plutocratic Overlord will cast their lots.

[nickwm21]

What I’ve noticed locally - the stores that are famous for treating employees well don’t seem to be hurting as bad….. no shit… see Chic Fil La, In n Out, Costco, Trader Joe’s…


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Buster Highmen]

Work ethic, decision-making, and natural talent are gifts the same way as generational wealth and trust funds. It’s absurd to believe otherwise.

<raises hand>

Free will is an illusion.

But way to go, those of you who pulled yourselves up by your ridiculous gilded bootstraps. I’m so proud of you.

I've been lucky so many ways. I don't blame the bitterness.

[Mustonen]

<raises hand>


I've been lucky so many ways. I don't blame the bitterness.

Not sure how to read that, but I’ve won the lottery too. When I start to think I have some intrinsic value above those who haven’t achieved what I have, I say shit like “I worked harder” or “I made better decisions” or “I’m just a lot smarter.” It’s a trap that serves no useful purpose and blinds you to a lot of reality.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

it is fun getting under your skin

Likewise


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Buster Highmen]

Not sure how to read that, but I’ve won the lottery too. When I start to think I have some intrinsic value above those who haven’t achieved what I have, I say shit like “I worked harder” or “I made better decisions” or “I’m just a lot smarter.” It’s a trap that serves no useful purpose and blinds you to a lot of reality.

Is my sarcasm meter broken?
Work ethic, decision-making, and natural talent are gifts the same way as generational wealth and trust funds. It’s absurd to believe otherwise.

I don't think they're remotely related and maybe that's a whooshing noise?

I always thought that luck is sort of random, but working at stuff can optimize one's exposure to it.
Work guarantees nothing.

It's the self absorbed who are the absurd.

[Mustonen]

Sure. You’re just the most special. A precious hard working luck optimizing snowflake.

You go, you.

You don’t see how work ethic and intelligence and good decision-making are gifts? I thought you were sooper smart? I thought you availed yourself of philosophy and reason?

Whooooosh…. You aren’t self absorbed at all. You should come back with a clever misspelling.

[dunfree]

Likewise


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

yer barely a skeeter

[Buster Highmen]

Sure. You’re just the most special. A precious hard working luck optimizing snowflake.

You go, you.

You don’t see how work ethic and intelligence and good decision-making are gifts? I thought you were sooper smart? I thought you availed yourself of philosophy and reason?

I never implied that work and intelligence weren't gifts. Just that they're not the same gifts as generational wealth and trust funds. I had the former, not the latter and a shitload of luck. I still don't really understand why my brother became an alcoholic and killed himself.

I am intrinsically nothing special.

Whooooosh…. You aren’t self absorbed at all. You should come back with a clever misspelling.

I guess I've done a bad job of conveying what I meant.

I hope I clarified it.

And fwiw, I do not intend to infer that any particular person is self absorbed, only that the self absorbed are often those that claim their success is purely a function of their hard work.

[Mustonen]

I never implied that work and intelligence weren't gifts. Just that they're not the same gifts as generational wealth and trust funds. I had the former, not the latter and a shitload of luck.


I guess I've done a bad job of conveying what I meant. I hope
I clarified it.

And fwiw, I do not intend to infer that any particular person is self absorbed, only that the self absorbed are often those that claim their success is purely a function of their hard work.

No, they are clearly not the same gifts (?). But they aren’t really that different either, depending somewhat on to what degree you view wealth as the goal. How is me having a high IQ or strong teamwork skills or leadership ability a better measure of my worth than wads of cash gifted to me by prior generations? It’s all just rationalizations. The rationalizations we like best hinge on whatever value system we ascribe to; sometimes they feed our ego, sometimes they don’t.

Ultimately, we are who and what we are because that is how the universe tilted, and the better we can appreciate that the better we can appreciate those who spun a different tilt. We try to assign meaning and purpose where meaning and purpose aren’t really all that useful. I suppose it’s at least partially to rationalize our perception of time.

[XXX-er]

I duno if i was the sharpest knife in the drawer but i knew the ph# of the sharpest knife in the drawer

and my ego was just a rotten mango rolling around in the hold of a ship ... call for assistance

but I did show up, not once did I ever not show up when i said i would,

I simply can't fathom not showing up, no matter how hungover/ fucked up

maybe life is about showing up ... seemed to work for me

[Buster Highmen]

No, they are clearly not the same gifts (?).

That's all I said, so I don't really get the vitriol.

But they aren’t really that different either, depending somewhat on to what degree you view wealth as the goal.

I don't think wealth is the goal. I won't argue that lots of people agree with me.

How is me having a high IQ or strong teamwork skills or leadership ability a better measure of my worth than wads of cash gifted to me by prior generations? It’s all just rationalizations.

I disagree there. There is an intrinsic difference.

The rationalizations we like best hinge on whatever value system we ascribe to; sometimes they feed our ego, sometimes they don’t.

Ultimately, we are who and what we are because that is how the universe tilted, and the better we can appreciate that the better we can appreciate those who spun a different tilt. We try to assign meaning and purpose where meaning and purpose aren’t really all that useful.

I think we agree that luck has a lot to do with it; I tried to convey that initially.

I do think that being interested in something is a great way to live and has a lot to do with happiness. An interest can be interpreted as feeling a meaning and purpose and that's great as long as it doesn't become the sole measure of everything and a means to look down ones nose at the world or be an asshole.

[shroom]

do you tell your kids not to try in school ‘cause it is what it is?

[Buster Highmen]

I figure it's my duty to tell my kids grades are not important and the only thing that's important is to be fascinated, to try to find something they think is cool.

Then they bust ass and ace everything in sight.

[XXX-er]

do you tell your kids not to try in school ‘cause it is what it is?

I didnt have to tell my kids anything

[shroom]

god damn, they were lucky

[XXX-er]

exactly, how do you reconcile that yer father might be the dude ?

both entirely self made, maybe I was a good example of a bad example ?

[Mustonen]

That's all I said, so I don't really get the vitriol.

Wasn’t really meant as vitriol, but I also probably misread you and was tired and perhaps surly last night. Apologies for my tone.

I don't think wealth is the goal. I won't argue that lots of people agree with me.

I don’t either. My point is that we’d only draw a meaningful distinction between the gift of wealth or station and the gift of work ethic or a positive upbringing or natural talents IF we think it represents the endgame. Otherwise, it’s just another factor.

I disagree there. There is an intrinsic difference.

We can agree to disagree, I guess. But why is there an intrinsic difference?

I think we agree that luck has a lot to do with it; I tried to convey that initially.

Agreed, but it’s damn lucky to have a head for numbers and the ability to follow through and set goals.

I do think that being interested in something is a great way to live and has a lot to do with happiness. An interest can be interpreted as feeling a meaning and purpose and that's great as long as it doesn't become the sole measure of everything and a means to look down ones nose at the world or be an asshole.

Sure. Curiosity and interest are gifts, too. Powerful ones. If you could give your kid a million bucks or give them curiosity and interest, which would you give him?

[Mustonen]

do you tell your kids not to try in school ‘cause it is what it is?

Of course not. One of my values, instilled in me by my upbringing, is to instill some of those same values into my kids. They’re super lucky that they have parents who are involved and interested and have a value system that they believe is worth passing on.

It’s not fatalism.

The point is that we all have different gifts, be it hard work or being born white in the late 20th century in America or being born into wealth. It’s not just luck. It’s all luck.

[::: :::]

One of my values, instilled in me by my upbringing, is to instill some of those same values into my kids.

Not following
What are “those same values”?

Up above, you seem to dismiss “values”as luck of birth station mostly, with people “assigning meaning/purpose” to make themselves feel better about being born into privilege.

[TahoeJ]

I always thought that luck is sort of random, but working at stuff can optimize one's exposure to it.

Reminds me of 15 or so years ago during some golf tournament - the US Open I think - where Sergio Garcia was complaining about bad bounces and how Tiger got a few lucky breaks. Tiger responded with, "the more I practice, the luckier I get."

[SumJongGuy]

That wasn't CUSSA.
In CUSSA, I blew it in the Divisionals, so missed the Nationals, but got the Western States, the losers national race.
Got `13th in the GS there.

That dorm was in Hurley I think.

I have no clue what the freestyle scene was like in 1973. I was in 2nd grade. Was Frank Beddor around then? I competed against David. Their parents pretty much funded all of USSA Central mid 70s to early 80s..

[Mustonen]

Not following
What are “those same values”?

Poorly worded, sorry. Those same values would be hard work and making the most of opportunity.

The point is to contextualize how we view our own accomplishments and the (lack of) accomplishments of others. Ultimately it’s a circle, but I find it helps me approach others with a compassion I would otherwise struggle to find, and it keeps me humble.

Also, I’m frequently astounded by the number of people who were simply never taught some really basic things, like accountability and effort. Treating them as “less” without attempting to correct those deficiencies (individual or systemic) is pretty self absorbed.

ETA: All of which is to say, wouldn’t it be nice if we could find a way to treat people (all people) with respect while still incentivizing the values we hold dear? Rather than patting ourselves on the back for our work ethic and innate abilities and using same as an excuse to treat/regard others like shit? That’s all, really. It’s something I talk about with my kids often. Avoid the assholes, but don’t pile on and drag them further down and if you’re going to engage, do it with compassion. Appreciate your gifts, but don’t begrudge others theirs. You win by winning, not by others losing.

[subtle plague]

I'm just here to state that I got lucky a few times. And have an organized girlfriend /wife who helped me.
Oh that and a free university education helped, like a lot .

Otherwise I'd be working shit jobs for some asshole boss like I did the 3 months after uni and before my teacher in training began. It was awesome to get fired on the last day. "If you don't do that the way I want, you can go." ( which was "throw the old wood from the old huts in the container", which I had just done. He just wanted me to read his mind because he meant I should've played tetris with the mouldy logs with the rusty nails sticking out to save container space.
I left and said "nah I'm good. C u. " his reply was " But you can't come back after Christmas to help disassemble the Christmas market, or ever again!!!. To which I replied: I don't intend to )

[Buster Highmen]

Sure. Curiosity and interest are gifts, too. Powerful ones. If you could give your kid a million bucks or give them curiosity and interest, which would you give him?

Curiosity and interest, I've mentioned that a bunch of times.

An intrinsic difference is that some kinds of work, those driven by a sense of meaning and purpose is a reward in itself, one in which money is a byproduct. That is bound up in whatever "worth" means, hopefully one outside of a purely financial one, one which is more internally defined.

In my time, circulating among the wealthy of Milwaukee, the Uileins, the Chapmans, Harnischfegers, the Pabsts, the Vogels, all families of inherited wealth, lots of them with some exception had far over inflated sense of self worth and importance. By contrast, the members of the physics department, the math department and the UWM as a whole did not have the vibe of intrinsic value, but were generally a lot more interesting and happy people.

So I think a sense of curiosity, of interest, of meaning and purpose, no matter how illusory, is worth a lot provided, again, that it's not a rationalization for sneering or being an asshole.