So when do we talk about opening up some new ski areas?

[CnRzG]

Powder Snow is a product. Whether you are heli, cat, or resort skiing, the marketers will market it. Because... well $.

I say go to the mom and pop mountains and get to know those historically iconic places. The crowds are smaller and the experience is more genuine. Support these places before they go away too. (From bankruptcy and or climate change.)

Don't count on any great new resorts opening up. It's not economically or ecologically feasible nowadays.

[AdironRider]

No. The point of this thread--whether you like it or not--is that no one is going to be opening a major new resort, not now, not ever.

Never eh? In this thread a couple new resorts have already been brought up that are a go, notably Mayflower and that Wasatch private one.

The forest service is not some unaccountable agency. If the demand is there they will allow one to be built. I posit that we are rapidly approaching the tipping point on that on our current trajectory.

Ps I started the thread.

[Dantheman]

Never eh? In this thread a couple new resorts have already been brought up that are a go, notably Mayflower and that Wasatch private one.

Mayflower is a luxury hotel and condo development that happens to include a few chairlifts whose only real reason for existing is to provide guests car-less access to Deer Valley. Private resorts only accessible to 0.01%'ers don't really count, either.

I'm all for some more ski areas, but generally opposed to more "resorts." Lifts are great, everything else that comes along with ski "resorts," at least in the US, kind of sucks.

[AdironRider]

I agree, def would prefer ski area to resort development and think that stands a much better chance of being approved. Think Silverton which was did get built within the past 20 years in a similar political environment.

[old goat]

We all have a front row seat to watch the excruciating death rattle of quality lift-served skiing. Every season worse than the previous one, year after year. Just when you think it can't become more ridiculous, it does on an exponential level. Part of it is the mega-consolidation/corporatization of the industry and the cheap mega-multi mountain passes. But just as much--if not more--of it is the skiers (many of whom are regulars here) who loudly cheered the Ikon & Epic Passes and the many new mountains it cheaply added to their pass without ever realizing that it would turn each and every one of these mountains into a massive disney shitshow that would obliterate everything that made these mountains worth skiing. Isn't it ironic that you got to save some coin going to Jackson Hole, but a season too late once it lost what made it special. Personally, I'd rather drop some money to ski these special places when they served quality rather than save a small amount of money for a shitty experience. Its nothing more than Pennywise and Pound Foolishness. This is happening everywhere and has only been encouraged by the buying decisions of the ski consumers whose wallets have demonstrated to these companies time and again that they greatly prefer quantity over quality. Seems like the most American thing I've ever seen. Short-sightedness completely destroying what one was seeking to begin with. But at least we get days at Alta on our pass....how could we have ever of swung going there without them.

Ah, the old "bring back expensive passes--as long as I can still afford one" argument.

I've been skiing in the Sierra for 50 years and I've never stopped having fun, other than the times I got hurt. Including this year.

I'm glad I'll be dead before snow in the Sierra disappears altogether. Because that will mean a whole lot of Californians and Arizonans and Nevadans without water to flush a toilet with and a whole lot less food for the nation and the world.

Blazes, there are more important things to spend that much passion on.

[blazes_boylan]

I agree, def would prefer ski area to resort development and think that stands a much better chance of being approved. Think Silverton which was did get built within the past 20 years in a similar political environment.

Agree completely, but that's not where the $$$ is.

[Iowagriz]

As a young college kid in MIssoula, I knew the 5 families that bought Snowbowl before the Morris' ended up with it. I might be dreaming, but I thought there were discussions of working with the tribe and putting a base area on the Evaro hill side of that mountain/range. Land is flat, nice access, base area (+casino), no idea if that was a pipe dream or actual discussions.

Perhaps not enough tribe land, too much private...plus the investment on lifts (even back in 88) would have been too high for that group.

[paulster2626]

For years many of us were worried that an apparent dwindling interest in skiing would contribute to the sport's demise. Now the opposite is happening and people are upset?

Skiing is a tough one because it's one of those things where the fewer people who are actually out doing it, the better it is.

[blazes_boylan]

Ah, the old "bring back expensive passes--as long as I can still afford one" argument.

I've been skiing in the Sierra for 50 years and I've never stopped having fun, other than the times I got hurt. Including this year.

I'm glad I'll be dead before snow in the Sierra disappears altogether. Because that will mean a whole lot of Californians and Arizonans and Nevadans without water to flush a toilet with and a whole lot less food for the nation and the world.

Blazes, there are more important things to spend that much passion on.

Quality skiing may not be important to you, but to some it is. I think that's kinda the whole point of this thread.

But no....It's about a willingness have access to less mountains on the same pass in exchange for higher quality snow conditions and experience. But I get it, very few people are willing to choose quality over quantity in our consumption mad country. That's why we are at this point on so, so many levels. Seems like lots of people are having fun and barely noticing as Rome burns.

[CnRzG]

Ah, the old "bring back expensive passes--as long as I can still afford one" argument.

I've been skiing in the Sierra for 50 years and I've never stopped having fun, other than the times I got hurt. Including this year.

I'm glad I'll be dead before snow in the Sierra disappears altogether. Because that will mean a whole lot of Californians and Arizonans and Nevadans without water to flush a toilet with and a whole lot less food for the nation and the world.

Blazes, there are more important things to spend that much passion on.

Truly. Climate Change is gonna fuck the snowpack and we won't have any skiing someday. If you were an investor with any kind of climate sense, would you put your money into another resort?

This is a first world problem... too many people at big resorts. So the fuck what? It's Covid and we are lucky to be skiing at all. Many countries have shuttered resorts.

Think of it this way... would you rather be waiting in a 15/20 minute liftline or waiting in line for two hours to get five gallons of drinking water because you've lost power and your pipes have frozen?

We are very fortunate in our privileged skier lives.

[raisingarizona13]

Truly. Climate Change is gonna fuck the snowpack and we won't have any skiing someday. If you were an investor with any kind of climate sense, would you put your money into another resort?

This is a first world problem... too many people at big resorts. So the fuck what? It's Covid and we are lucky to be skiing at all. Many countries have shuttered resorts.

Think of it this way... would you rather be waiting in a 15/20 minute liftline or waiting in line for two hours to get five gallons of drinking water because you've lost power and your pipes have frozen?

We are very fortunate in our privileged skier lives.

I'm mostly choosing to go ride and walk around the desert this season.

[old goat]

Quality skiing may not be important to you, but to some it is. I think that's kinda the whole point of this thread.

But no....It's about a willingness have access to less mountains on the same pass in exchange for higher quality snow conditions and experience. But I get it, very few people are willing to choose quality over quantity in our consumption mad country. That's why we are at this point on so, so many levels. Seems like lots of people are having fun and barely noticing as Rome burns.

Quality skiing is very important to me. Skiing is pretty much all I do all winter. IMO all skiing is quality skiing.

As far as people having access to fewer mountains improving the quality--that doesn't make sense. I used to have access to one resort --Alpine Meadows--on my pass. Now I have access to 41, but I still can only ski at one at a time. So the places people will be skiing on a given day may be different with multi resort passes but the overall skier burden will be the same. Now maybe IKON or Epic has increased crowding at YOUR favorite place, but that means some other place is less crowded.

Making passes a lot more expensive would certainly improve skiing quality--whether the passes are single or multi resort.. How expensive do you want to make them? There are plenty of people who would pay 10K if it meant no lift lines and fresh tracks all day long. There are people who would pay 50K. There are people who could buy an entire resort and just let their friends ski there.

People are having fun. You're not. But you're the one who sees the truth. OK.
I don't know about Rome burning. I expect California will be again this summer.

[Bunion 2020]

The forest service is not some unaccountable agency. If the demand is there they will allow one to be built.

Bwhahahahhahahahah

[raisingarizona13]

For years many of us were worried that an apparent dwindling interest in skiing would contribute to the sport's demise. Now the opposite is happening and people are upset?

Skiing is a tough one because it's one of those things where the fewer people who are actually out doing it, the better it is.

Ha!

Yeah, so is skiing now saved or is it dying again? I'm so confused. I think for a lot of us middle aged and up, lifer ski bums types feel that we are being pushed away from it. I know I am right now. I'm hoping covid is the big component to this years total fuckery. There's only a few ski areas left that I feel are worth my money and visiting and aren't insanely busy. I have friends that are being forced out of their expensive mountain towns this year and don't care to be at their home mountains because of the crowding.

[raisingarizona13]

Bwhahahahhahahahah

Who ever wrote "The forest service is not some unaccountable agency. If the demand is there they will allow it to be built." must not have much experience working with them.

I certainly can't speak on every district since my experience is pretty limited but a lot of them have their hands tied from the Sierra Club lawsuits, a lack of funding and fire suppression efforts. This and the fact that the agencies constant shuffling of staff doesn't make progress super easy or that a lot of government workers aren't trying to create a big workload or rock any boats, plenty of them are trying to throw her into cruise control until they can collect their sweet pensions.

[AdironRider]

Hey, I'm not saying it would be easy, but plenty of businesses make it work and get new access to make money on forest service lands every year.

Whether that is skiing, logging, oil and gas or whatever. It does happen, so I'm not buying the whole, its impossible and will never happen again.

[raisingarizona13]

Hey, I'm not saying it would be easy, but plenty of businesses make it work and get new access to make money on forest service lands every year.

Whether that is skiing, logging, oil and gas or whatever. It does happen, so I'm not buying the whole, its impossible and will never happen again.

Maybe but energy is a lot more important then wealthy peoples recreation.

[Bunion 2020]

I am afraid ROI trumps all. You seem to want a Ski Area with good snow, good terrain, good access and no people. That model just manages to squeak by until it doesn't.

If you think the Brill's are making big bank from Silverton, well I don't think so.

Any large ski area that will be built will be on private land and will mean RE to pay the bills.

[AdironRider]

Well the Brills have managed to buy some helicopters and expand to an AK heli op as well, so its gotta be throwing off something.

I think ski areas make a lot more money than they let on, and are perfectly content to let people think they are broke to justify their pricing. Are they throwing off fuck you money like wall street? No probably not, but they are paying the bills and then some in most cases.

[S_jenks]

As a young college kid in MIssoula, I knew the 5 families that bought Snowbowl before the Morris' ended up with it. I might be dreaming, but I thought there were discussions of working with the tribe and putting a base area on the Evaro hill side of that mountain/range. Land is flat, nice access, base area (+casino), no idea if that was a pipe dream or actual discussions.

Perhaps not enough tribe land, too much private...plus the investment on lifts (even back in 88) would have been too high for that group.

If they offered enough money, I bet they could get a lease for the land in the Evaro bowl. They'd have to do a silver mtn-type approach though if they were to have any hope of surviving.

[PNWbrit]

How expensive do you want to make them?

I think paying an amount increased generally at the rate of inflation over what I was paying 20 years ago for my pass sounds ok.

Instead It's far cheaper, offers free skiing elsewhere and other discounts and is sold at 3 to 4 times the number that they sold pre Ikon.

And now we have a duopoly fighting each other to undercut the other to boost sales.

[Bunion 2020]

Well the Brills have managed to buy some helicopters

No one buys Helicopters except for flight services.

Even the helicopter is different. SMG uses a powerful AStar B3e on a long-term lease, meaning they keep it year round. They fly early season in Seward, midwinter in Colorado, spring back in AK, and use it for reconnaissance and other work the rest of the year.

[Shredhead]

I think ski areas make a lot more money than they let on, and are perfectly content to let people think they are broke to justify their pricing. Are they throwing off fuck you money like wall street? No probably not, but they are paying the bills and then some in most cases.

I’m not so sure. It’s cyclical and prone thing’s they can’t control.
I used to do business with an ultra rich Mexican industrialist. Really smart, savvy guy.
He told me he never lost as much money as owning Ski Sunlight in Glenwood Springs. Same with Monarch.

Somebody might be making money now, but they picked up the assets cheap.

I don’t see new developments making any money.

[old goat]

I think paying an amount increased generally at the rate of inflation over what I was paying 20 years ago for my pass sounds ok.

Instead It's far cheaper, offers free skiing elsewhere and other discounts and is sold at 3 to 4 times the number that they sold pre Ikon.

And now we have a duopoly fighting each other to undercut the other to boost sales.

I'd gladly pay more to ski less crowded areas. I can pay more than the average person. There are plenty of people who can pay a lot more than I can and would be happy to see me gone. My point is if resorts start going down the road of limiting access by raising prices there's no telling where it ends and a lot of us may be left out. One way or another though the future belongs to passes. Given the number of bad years CA has had in the last 50 years there would have been a few major resorts gone out of business if they had to rely on day tickets.

[JONG SLAUGHTER]

THE REASON THERE WON'T BE ANY MORE NEW SKI AREAS IS BECAUSE OF ALL YOU -GREENPEACE IN DRAG- DUMB CUNTS SUPPORT HUGE OPPOSITION GROUPS. SO WHY YOU MORONS WAIT IN LINE FOR AN HOUR ON YOUR NEXT POWDER DAY WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER POW STICKER WEARING D-BAGS, UNDERSTAND YOU ARE THE REASON YOU'RE NOT AT A NEW SILVERTON TYPE AREA INSTEAD. YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE MORONS THAT LIVE IN OLD MINING TOWNS TURNED SKI TOWNS THAT COMPLAIN ABOUT MINING. YOUR "SHIT DON'T STINK" ATTITUDES DON'T COVER UP THE SMELL OF SHIT.