Caroline Gleich Harrassment Story

[telefreewasatch]

For an outdoorsy athlete, your social media presence and interview media is the same as a corporate job interview. You gotta sell yourself to raise your profile which will in-turn get you more funding. You need to be your strongest advocate. Maybe she did it in a way that turned a lot of people off? idk, I never followed her. But I could not disagree more with the statement to let your "actions speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are".

sitting around waiting for others to recognize your accomplishments is a real easy way to get overlooked... in terms of a pro skier, but especially in life.

Understand and agree that one must promote oneself. It is her style that rubbed many folks the wrong way. Don't tell me how great you are...show me or get off the pot.

When Caroline stopped calling herself "ski model", and started calling herself "ski athlete" it was a lie and an insult to real athletes. As a model, you get to self promote, endlessly, and harmlessly. When you are a real athlete you need to act, and perform like one, else people are going to take shots at you.

What I'm saying is that in her transition period she insulted many athletes and others of us in the industry.

[Supermoon]

Understand and agree that one must promote oneself. It is her style that rubbed many folks the wrong way. Don't tell me how great you are...show me or get off the pot.

You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?

[telefreewasatch]

You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?

Think you are missing my objective points.

[Supermoon]

Think you are missing my objective points.

Clearly. I read it as you are ok with her doing what she does, as long as she never tells anyone about it.

[telefreewasatch]

Clearly. I read it as you are ok with her doing what she does, as long as she never tells anyone about it.

"Sigh"

[Danno]

You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?

Yup.

Just like if you hear someone say "that guy is really articulate" you can tell what race the guy he's talking about is, even though the language itself sounds race-neutral. This kind of language may sound gender neutral but it isn't.

[abraham]

You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?

I know personally somethings she did seemed to strike me the wrong way. But I think that's because I didn't know much about her, I only knew her as an occasional partner who showed up in reports on tetonsandwasatch. Then I saw her name show up in some ads, the spring pass billboard by the 7-11' and a bunch of other places seemingly all at once. Striking me the wrong way isn't quite right, I just wasn't aware of what else she was doing so I was surprised to see her outside the context of skiing steep lines in the Wasatch.

I got over that initial surprise though.

I also could have my timeline inverted and may have just known her from skiing, then spring pass, then the steep skiing

[dunfree]

(why do you think there are so few, by the way?)

because in the US women of prime action sports demographic are more interested in educating themselves, moving to big citys to acquire social and fiscal capital, and generally more prone to further themselves?

clearly the Caucasian male heternormative beauty gaze is powerful, with long history, but surely there's some ownership of it now by women? Men aren't the direct consumer of beauty/fashion products aimed at women - who apparently prefer straight, attractive to the prior mentioned beauty gaze, sports stars to advertise them.

[TahoeJ]

People sure seem to give a shit about someone else's skiing and publicity. Maybe, I don't know, just do your own thing and don't worry about what other people are doing? Crazy thought, I know.

[mall walker]

Harassment is wrong. Harassment of people, animals, plants, the planet, everything. Never bought into it not even in the terrible twos.

That being said, Caroline Gleich rubs many people wrong. It's not what she is doing and has done that gets under one's skin, it is how she has done it and continues. I think californiagrown has hit the nail on the head.

When she was transitioning from model to athlete she spent a great deal of time whining and being a victim. The media spent a lot of time portraying her as the "real deal" when she was only trying to become that, but was not, yet. At that same time, she was all "look at me, look at me." If I could have influenced / influence her it would be for her actions to speak for themselves, not oneself. Let others tell the world how great you are. Same as I influenced my own offspring. So, yeah, she has always been a target.

She finally has my begrudging respect because she is out there getting after it a lot. She has my full respect for spending her time and energy using the influence that she has for environmental protection purposes. Time and energy spent in this manner cannot be deducted from any of our lives, let alone the earth's. Kudos.

Won't even approach the "Shitting Gallery", Apostle McLean, and being an acolyte of him and his list. The Ribbon? The Great White Icicle? Ridiculous for many reasons. That, however, is another topic.

Caroline exhibits an abundance of lack. She still has the whiny tone. My wife walked in when I was listening to her Powder podcast and wanted to know who the whiny, victimy person being interviewed was.

So, yeah, until she womans up she will continue to be a target if she is going to continue to use social media to put bread on her table.

"Yeah, harassment is illegal and all, but she offends my extremely moral principles about recreation, so she basically deserves it" is a pretty terrible take.

[klar]

because in the US women of prime action sports demographic are more interested in educating themselves, moving to big citys to acquire social and fiscal capital, and generally more prone to further themselves?

hahaha there are less women in action sports because men are stupid? I like this train of thought.

and one more time re. the Caroline Gleich thing: she apparently has some kind of stalker who is harassing her. Whether or not anyone likes her or whether she is more model or athlete seems to me about as relevant to this issue as whether she prefers pizza or pasta for lunch. Why exactly is the discussion primarily about people's feelings about her, rather than, say, about how to combat and prevent this kind of harassment?

[auvgeek]

You know that criticizing a woman on how she speaks or how she "just rubs you the wrong way" is a classic way for men to dismiss women, right? How many male pros have you said that about? How many male pros do you come onto TGR to bitch about how they were portrayed as the "real deal" when they were still up and comers?

Actually, plenty, speaking for myself. But I generally don't come on to TGR to complain about any pros. Still, I think it's sad that we have come to a point in our culture when we can't comment on a public figure's persona without being criticized of dismissing their race or gender.

It's also really sad and in exceptionally poor taste that this thread has become about whether or not people here like her as a person/athlete/skier. She does not deserve this kind of harassment regardless of any perceived personal faults. End of story. That's like saying, "yeah, that girl was raped, but what did you expect from the way she was dressed?"

For some athletes I care about the backstory, for others I don't. For me that depends on the person, not so much the gender. Regarding who gets what kind of sponsorship deals for what kind for what kind of talent, I figure it doesn't make much sense to compare things strictly by gender and who is "better". I know women and men who I consider to be better than me at skiing who are not sponsored, and women and men who are. I also know women and men who I do not consider to be better than me at skiing who are sponsored in some form or other.

Well said, klar.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Harassment is wrong. Harassment of people, animals, plants, the planet, everything. Never bought into it not even in the terrible twos.

Blah, blah, blah...

So, yeah, until she womans up she will continue to be a target if she is going to continue to use social media to put bread on her table.

Let's just boil this dipshit hot take down to the greatest hits to simplify it for the reader:

1. Harassment is wrong.
2. Unless the victim does a bunch of things to deserve it. Of which you are the judge.
3. In which case they should expect it.

[abraham]

hahaha there are less women in action sports because men are stupid? I like this train of thought.

and one more time re. the Caroline Gleich thing: she apparently has some kind of stalker who is harassing her. Whether or not anyone likes her or whether she is more model or athlete seems to me about as relevant to this issue as whether she prefers pizza or pasta for lunch. Why exactly is the discussion primarily about people's feelings about her, rather than, say, about how to combat and prevent this kind of harassment?

I don't know if there is a good way to combat or prevent it. Especially for people who put so much of themselves into the public space whether for work or by choice. If someone wants to connect the dots and has the motivation, they can.

Telling people from a young age that it isn't ok only can accomplish so much, there will be the few people who choose to ignore that. And they may not be easy to find for the purpose of punishment. Better policies by companies to remove people who are harassing might help, but they also have an incentive to make signing up easier. For a professional skier who needs to use social media, adjusting privacy settings is a non option without finding another job. I don't have any good solutions to offer


Also, I hope she prefers pizza for lunch

[media310]

hahaha there are less women in action sports because men are stupid? I like this train of thought.

and one more time re. the Caroline Gleich thing: she apparently has some kind of stalker who is harassing her. Whether or not anyone likes her or whether she is more model or athlete seems to me about as relevant to this issue as whether she prefers pizza or pasta for lunch. Why exactly is the discussion primarily about people's feelings about her, rather than, say, about how to combat and prevent this kind of harassment?

I have been eating popcorn waiting around for someone to mention why did TGR thought Carloine's story was "newsorthy" more stoke, less shit

[auvgeek]

I have been eating popcorn waiting around for someone to mention why did TGR thought Carloine's story was "newsorthy" more stoke, less shit

Where did klar question whether Caroline's story was newsworthy? From what I read, klar wrote never implied the story wasn't newsworthy. She said personal feelings about Caroline Gleich are irrelevant to the harassment issue.

Furthermore, I think it's "newsworthy" when a visible member of the ski community is being harassed. We should support Caroline for calling out this creep, regardless of our personal feelings of her as a person or pro skier. I mean, would it be more "newsworthy" if it had been Betty Dee being harassed?

[klar]

clearly the Caucasian male heternormative beauty gaze is powerful, with long history, but surely there's some ownership of it now by women? Men aren't the direct consumer of beauty/fashion products aimed at women - who apparently prefer straight, attractive to the prior mentioned beauty gaze, sports stars to advertise them.

okay, I saw your edit. Sure, some of the issues surrounding body image and beauty standards in general are partly or fully on women. But considering action sports specifically, I do not feel like I was ever given a meaningful choice about what kind of people model the products I might like to buy. I would much prefer to buy something that is advertised with imagery of a woman ripping at whatever she does, not with imagery of a woman looking cute. I do not think women want to buy skis or a mountain bike because the model in the ad has good hair. A model looking sexy does not make me want to buy a sports bra. Some brands are starting to come round, but by and large the percentage of cute vs ripping females in ads for sports stuff is pretty skewed. There seems to be some assumption that women like images of attractive women, simply because there are so many images of attractive women. This issue has been widely discussed especially in surfing, for example after that roxy ad for a bikini that showed a pro surfer showering and rolling around in bed but not actually surfing.

I am not claiming that I know the answer to why there are so few women in action sports, by the way. I do feel that the outdoor/action sports industry is in many ways not a level playing field. There have been some interesting discussions about gender stereotypes and nature vs nurture in past threads.

I don't know if there is a good way to combat or prevent it. Especially for people who put so much of themselves into the public space whether for work or by choice. If someone wants to connect the dots and has the motivation, they can.

Telling people from a young age that it isn't ok only can accomplish so much, there will be the few people who choose to ignore that. And they may not be easy to find for the purpose of punishment. Better policies by companies to remove people who are harassing might help, but they also have an incentive to make signing up easier. For a professional skier who needs to use social media, adjusting privacy settings is a non option without finding another job. I don't have any good solutions to offer

How does one combat any kind of crime? Telling kids not to do something will never have a perfect success rate and neither will clear legal definitions of crimes and corresponding and routinely enforced punishments, but those things are an important start. Just because there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean doing nothing is a viable option. The line between free speech and harassment seems more blurry on the internet than in an offline setting (people seem to agree the voicemail crossed a line. is that really so different from an email?), probably because the internet hasn't been around that long and legal regulations of any kind are hard to establish, let alone enforce.

I get that solutions are not easy to come by but this is a problem that wont just go away and, as you pointed out, simply not using social media or the internet in general is not an option. Social norms (and laws too, I think) will have to adjust to new forms of communication tech and patterns.

[ill-advised strategy]

we combat this one by figuring out who this is and putting him on the infamous list.

[abraham]

How does one combat any kind of crime? Telling kids not to do something will never have a perfect success rate and neither will clear legal definitions of crimes and corresponding and routinely enforced punishments, but those things are an important start. Just because there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean doing nothing is a viable option. The line between free speech and harassment seems more blurry on the internet than in an offline setting (people seem to agree the voicemail crossed a line. is that really so different from an email?), probably because the internet hasn't been around that long and legal regulations of any kind are hard to establish, let alone enforce.

I get that solutions are not easy to come by but this is a problem that wont just go away and, as you pointed out, simply not using social media or the internet in general is not an option. Social norms (and laws too, I think) will have to adjust to new forms of communication tech and patterns.

I know I didn't have much to add, mostly idly posting while making coffee. I agree about the voicemail vs email distinction to some level, though I have a bad tendency to ignore both of them. The reaction to voicemail may be that we think of voice as far more personal than text, and it's easier to review text before sending.

But this isn't new, I also thought​ about Scott Abraham even though that was before I was very aware of the internet. I didn't know he had a tgr profile as linked below but I'm not surprised.

Anybody else notice a certain special someone in the comments thread? You know...the kind of special someone who was legally banned from posting on a ski site because his harassment was so over the top.

[Supermoon]

Actually, plenty, speaking for myself. But I generally don't come on to TGR to complain about any pros. Still, I think it's sad that we have come to a point in our culture when we can't comment on a public figure's persona without being criticized of dismissing their race or gender.

It's also really sad and in exceptionally poor taste that this thread has become about whether or not people here like her as a person/athlete/skier. She does not deserve this kind of harassment regardless of any perceived personal faults. End of story. That's like saying, "yeah, that girl was raped, but what did you expect from the way she was dressed?"

I agree with this for sure. You should be able to criticize or dislike people for whatever reason you want. It's using very loaded language to dismiss someone offhand that I don't like. Calling women whiny or bitchy or whatever carries a lot of weight since it's historically used in certain ways.

Saying "harassment is bad, but" pisses me off too.

If you don't like her that's cool, but it's your problem. Not hers. And it's not a reason for her to get death threats from internet stalkers.

[MTT]

okay, I saw your edit. Sure, some of the issues surrounding body image and beauty standards in general are partly or fully on women. But considering action sports specifically, I do not feel like I was ever given a meaningful choice about what kind of people model the products I might like to buy. I would much prefer to buy something that is advertised with imagery of a woman ripping at whatever she does, not with imagery of a woman looking cute. I do not think women want to buy skis or a mountain bike because the model in the ad has good hair. A model looking sexy does not make me want to buy a sports bra. Some brands are starting to come round, but by and large the percentage of cute vs ripping females in ads for sports stuff is pretty skewed. There seems to be some assumption that women like images of attractive women, simply because there are so many images of attractive women. This issue has been widely discussed especially in surfing, for example after that roxy ad for a bikini that showed a pro surfer showering and rolling around in bed but not actually surfing.

I am not claiming that I know the answer to why there are so few women in action sports, by the way. I do feel that the outdoor/action sports industry is in many ways not a level playing field. There have been some interesting discussions about gender stereotypes and nature vs nurture in past threads.



How does one combat any kind of crime? Telling kids not to do something will never have a perfect success rate and neither will clear legal definitions of crimes and corresponding and routinely enforced punishments, but those things are an important start. Just because there are no perfect solutions doesn't mean doing nothing is a viable option. The line between free speech and harassment seems more blurry on the internet than in an offline setting (people seem to agree the voicemail crossed a line. is that really so different from an email?), probably because the internet hasn't been around that long and legal regulations of any kind are hard to establish, let alone enforce.

I get that solutions are not easy to come by but this is a problem that wont just go away and, as you pointed out, simply not using social media or the internet in general is not an option. Social norms (and laws too, I think) will have to adjust to new forms of communication tech and patterns.

Typing negative statements about a public figure in an open forum is "rude" but a fact of life.
Tracking down the phone number of a public figure and leaving a nasty message says this person is obsessed and creepy.

What happens next? We are talking about someone who is easily identifiable and accessible. Who happens to spend a good deal of time in remote places.

The Stalker need to be called out.

Caroline has put herself in the public eye. But I don't think that is a green light for someone to harass her.

If all of us who use the internet allow this type of behavior, It ruins it for everyone.

I would suspect the police already know who the stalker is, and will be watching.

To add, as of now I suspect a lot more people now know the name "Caroline Gleich"
So there is that.

[digitaldeath]

can she ski better than ingrid ?

[MTT]

can she ski better than ingrid ?

Decide for yourself.
She has a good bit of Ski Porn on the Internet.

[TahoeJ]

can she ski better than ingrid ?

No, but you're setting a pretty high bar there.

[digitaldeath]

a powder skiing vid?

lame