2020 Wildfire Season

**Kevo** · 10-18-2020, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by char_

R6 IHC's are basically done as well. I imagine they could extend the tours of the permanent seasonals and combine crews to form a smaller number of IHC or Type 2 IA crews. R5 year round staffing might need to a be a model more regions look at moving forward.

I believe one of the NIMO teams was contingency planning for this and the college departures at the national level this summer.

Agree that year round (or maybe 9 month) staffing is the way to go in R2 and R5. I dunno....maybe we should allow people to get permanent status and benefits for putting thier life, health and relationships on the line to save the lives and property of others for $12-$20 per hour. While we're at it, maybe we should pay them more than $12-$20 per hour.

**Meadow Skipper** · 10-18-2020, 05:11 PM

It’s always been kind of sad for me to see temp seasonals that liked the work and were good at it move on to something else because of finances and benefits. There might be some of those here on TRG.

And yeah, permanent status could really help people that were having health and/or relationship problems...and there’re a lot of those.

**Danno** · 10-19-2020, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

I read tonight (not confirmed) that the Greenbriar burned down.

FWIW, this appears to have been just a rumor, I cannot find any confirmation.

**stapes** · 10-20-2020, 03:26 PM

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/arp/n...d=FSEPRD831612

FS land closure along front range

**claymond** · 10-21-2020, 09:10 AM

On the staffing stuff:

At the start of this season, temps were told that they could work up to 1700 something hours instead of 1039. I don't know if that was related to covid or if that will continue into the future. I call bullshit on working someone that long and calling them a temp still. The 1039 long term temp employee thing is BS to begin with.

R5 at least is actively trying to get to an 80 percent permanent firefighting workforce. Made up of 26/0 and 18/8. Rumor is other regions are moving this way as well, though probably with 13/13s mostly.

As meadowskipper said, a move to a mostly permanent, more year round workforce would be a massive change. One I support and think needs to happen. But without changes in scheduling, one I see causing more burnout. At least some of those hotshot crews who laid off temps at 150 days vs 180 did it for good reasons beyond lack of funding:

At 1000 plus hours of OT and continuous 14 day assignments for 5-6 months, it's likely a crew is no longer physically or mentally capable of safely performing at the standards of an IHC. That's my personal experience along with plenty of co-workers experiences. Pushing things later one year, maybe not a huge deal. Year in and year out, different story.

Personal lives have been neglected to non-existent since the spring. Once again, one year here and there that personal lives need to be put on the back burner for another few weeks, probably not a deal breaker. Year after year after year, for entire careers, gonna lose alot of good people.

So, my ideas for having a more permanent fire work force:

Do away with temp positions. After 12 months of work-approx two seasons- everyone, regardless of qualifications or GS level, gets a permanent seasonal position with all the benefits that includes.

Stagger module start dates. This already happens somewhat- Southwest crews usually start earlier because their fire season starts earlier. But it needs done all around. From what I can tell, in most years, this would provide enough resources.

If staggering resources isn't feasible and year round staffing is needed(in most places I don't think it is), some bigger things have to change. Instead of 14 days on/2 days r&r, something like 14 days work/7 days off I think would be needed (if you're on an assignment). Physically, no one's recovering for shit on 2 days off. Mentally, six months spent with basically no outside life is tough enough.

For those who don't know some terms:

1039/temp employees: 1039 hours is the maximum base hours an employee can work and still be called a temp. 1039 hours is one hour short of six months of forty hour per week base hours. Overtime doesn't count in this equation, a few years I've gotten more overtime hours than base hours.

26/0, 18/8, 13/13: The number of pay period a permanent employee is guaranteed to work/ the number they could have off. A 26/0 is year round, 18/8 is about 8 months working/4 months off. 13/13, 6 months on 6 months off.

**d-root** · 10-21-2020, 07:38 PM

East Troublesome Fire is approaching 30,000 acres. It crossed highway 125 around 3pm today. The far eastern part of the fire is just south of Little Gravel Mtn. Would post pics, but can not. We need moisture! Really hope the Sunday storm does not dud.

**SkiBall** · 10-21-2020, 09:30 PM

Getting whiplash trying to keep track of all these fires.

**ill-advised strategy** · 10-21-2020, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by claymond

On the staffing stuff:

At the start of this season, temps were told that they could work up to 1700 something hours instead of 1039. I don't know if that was related to covid or if that will continue into the future. I call bullshit on working someone that long and calling them a temp still. The 1039 long term temp employee thing is BS to begin with.

R5 at least is actively trying to get to an 80 percent permanent firefighting workforce. Made up of 26/0 and 18/8. Rumor is other regions are moving this way as well, though probably with 13/13s mostly.

As meadowskipper said, a move to a mostly permanent, more year round workforce would be a massive change. One I support and think needs to happen. But without changes in scheduling, one I see causing more burnout. At least some of those hotshot crews who laid off temps at 150 days vs 180 did it for good reasons beyond lack of funding:

At 1000 plus hours of OT and continuous 14 day assignments for 5-6 months, it's likely a crew is no longer physically or mentally capable of safely performing at the standards of an IHC. That's my personal experience along with plenty of co-workers experiences. Pushing things later one year, maybe not a huge deal. Year in and year out, different story.

Personal lives have been neglected to non-existent since the spring. Once again, one year here and there that personal lives need to be put on the back burner for another few weeks, probably not a deal breaker. Year after year after year, for entire careers, gonna lose alot of good people.

So, my ideas for having a more permanent fire work force:

Do away with temp positions. After 12 months of work-approx two seasons- everyone, regardless of qualifications or GS level, gets a permanent seasonal position with all the benefits that includes.

Stagger module start dates. This already happens somewhat- Southwest crews usually start earlier because their fire season starts earlier. But it needs done all around. From what I can tell, in most years, this would provide enough resources.

If staggering resources isn't feasible and year round staffing is needed(in most places I don't think it is), some bigger things have to change. Instead of 14 days on/2 days r&r, something like 14 days work/7 days off I think would be needed (if you're on an assignment). Physically, no one's recovering for shit on 2 days off. Mentally, six months spent with basically no outside life is tough enough.

For those who don't know some terms:

1039/temp employees: 1039 hours is the maximum base hours an employee can work and still be called a temp. 1039 hours is one hour short of six months of forty hour per week base hours. Overtime doesn't count in this equation, a few years I've gotten more overtime hours than base hours.

26/0, 18/8, 13/13: The number of pay period a permanent employee is guaranteed to work/ the number they could have off. A 26/0 is year round, 18/8 is about 8 months working/4 months off. 13/13, 6 months on 6 months off.

In the day, on national helitack we had 9 personnel. 3 pods of 3. We staffed the ship on incidents with 6. The first week you’re with one pod of 3, then that one rotates out and you work your second week with the other pod, then you rotate home and get base 8s or take leave or do local IA or whatever for a week at home. It was a really good system you could scale up for a shot crew. You get your fire time, you can kinda keep your household together a bit more...would recommend.

**Danno** · 10-21-2020, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by d-root

East Troublesome Fire is approaching 30,000 acres. It crossed highway 125 around 3pm today. The far eastern part of the fire is just south of Little Gravel Mtn. Would post pics, but can not. We need moisture! Really hope the Sunday storm does not dud.

Seeing lots of shit on Facebook that there's a decent chance Grand Lake is gone by morning.

**Meadow Skipper** · 10-22-2020, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

In the day, on national helitack we had 9 personnel. 3 pods of 3. We staffed the ship on incidents with 6. The first week you’re with one pod of 3, then that one rotates out and you work your second week with the other pod, then you rotate home and get base 8s or take leave or do local IA or whatever for a week at home. It was a really good system you could scale up for a shot crew. You get your fire time, you can kinda keep your household together a bit more...would recommend.

Good system. Combine that with decent base pay for the down time and that’s how you staff a fire program with professionals.

**skaredshtles** · 10-22-2020, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Danno

Seeing lots of shit on Facebook that there's a decent chance Grand Lake is gone by morning.

Jeezus - 125K acres this morning. At this point, the entire northern Front Range is on fire/burned, practically speaking.

**Kevo** · 10-22-2020, 12:23 PM

The East Troublesome Fire (near Grand Lake) spread 20 miles west to east yesterday through heavy timber, growing by more than 100k acres in a day. That is unbelievable fire behavior.

There was a single Hotshot crew from California and only three contract hand crews assigned to the fire as of yesterday. The lack of resources is insane and if the general public was aware I think they would be furious. Overall, there are less than 300 people assigned to a now 125k acre fire that is making monumental runs through heavy timber, burning homes and threatening entire towns. What. the. fuck.

**char_** · 10-22-2020, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kevo

The East Troublesome Fire (near Grand Lake) spread 20 miles west to east yesterday through heavy timber, growing by more than 100k acres in a day. That is unbelievable fire behavior.

There was a single Hotshot crew from California and only three contract hand crews assigned to the fire as of yesterday. The lack of resources is insane and if the general public was aware I think they would be furious. Overall, there are less than 300 people assigned to a now 125k acre fire that is making monumental runs through heavy timber, burning homes and threatening entire towns. What. the. fuck.

Sounds like it may have gone over the top.

https://wildfiretoday.com/

**Lone Star** · 10-22-2020, 01:02 PM

^^^ holy smokes. any notions that the un-wooded crests of mountain ranges are a sufficient fire break have been dispelled this fire season.

**Kevo** · 10-22-2020, 01:19 PM

It may well merge with the Cameron Peak fire if it keeps going.

This is now the biggest fire in Rocky Mountain National Park history. Estes is in danger of being overrun and Alpine IHC and presumably most/all other seasonal fire personnel in RMNP have been laid off for the year.

**Kevo** · 10-22-2020, 01:23 PM

Listening in on radio traffic here- https://m.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/32274

RMNP is closed, rangers are working to evacuate all people still in the backcountry.

**gravitylover** · 10-22-2020, 01:54 PM

Holy crap! This sux

**glademaster** · 10-22-2020, 01:58 PM

The truly unbelievable part is how late in the fall it is (regarding the Colorado fires).

**Norseman** · 10-22-2020, 02:12 PM

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**Meadow Skipper** · 10-22-2020, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kevo

The East Troublesome Fire (near Grand Lake) spread 20 miles west to east yesterday through heavy timber, growing by more than 100k acres in a day. That is unbelievable... The lack of resources is insane and if the general public was aware I think they would be furious. Overall, there are less than 300 people assigned to a now 125k acre fire that is making monumental runs through heavy timber, burning homes and threatening entire towns. What. the. fuck.

Much the same here in New Mexico. The Luna fire is +10k acres, and been burning for a few days, but there are only 4 hand crews on it. By now, I think the only fed hotshot crews still on are from California. https://nmfireinfo.com/2020/10/22/lu...te-10-22-2020/

Originally Posted by glademaster

The truly unbelievable part is how late in the fall it is (regarding the Colorado fires).

It’s crazy, and the same in NM.

**The SnowShow** · 10-22-2020, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lone Star

^^^ holy smokes. any notions that the un-wooded crests of mountain ranges are a sufficient fire break have been dispelled this fire season.

Seriously. I would have thought the continuous alpine continental divide all above 12,000’ would have kept it on the west side.

**telehacker** · 10-22-2020, 05:13 PM

I sent a type 4 from idaho to new mexico on OCTOBER 22. This one crazy year large fire, COVID insanity and a fire season that does not end. Not a lot of moisture coming in the basin in the future..

Lots of good thoughts on how we should manage in the future. Budget will drive it all. We are/have lost many good fed folks going to city/county/state because we pay on a scale from the old days.

GS 8 Captain does not work year make 50 or 60 grand after all the time and quals to get to GS-8 with overtime and on call 24/7

Rookie city with high school degree or GED starts at 50 for rookie school and then has a schedule that is set for the next 12 months

Shit needs to change

**Danno** · 10-22-2020, 05:35 PM

Parts of Estes Park have been evac'ed.

Snow due on Sunday. But it may be too late.

**muted** · 10-22-2020, 06:34 PM

Reports of the fire spread slowing down near Mt Wuh.

**claymond** · 10-23-2020, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy

In the day, on national helitack we had 9 personnel. 3 pods of 3. We staffed the ship on incidents with 6. The first week you’re with one pod of 3, then that one rotates out and you work your second week with the other pod, then you rotate home and get base 8s or take leave or do local IA or whatever for a week at home. It was a really good system you could scale up for a shot crew. You get your fire time, you can kinda keep your household together a bit more...would recommend.

That's smart.

Man what a year