Which synthetic mid/outer layer for ski touring?

[Reformed]

I fought against the popularity of the Arcteryx Beta LT for a lot of years and ended up picking one up on sale. It turns out lots of other people were on to something. I wear the thing all the time. Breathable side panels are good in my opinion, as they allow the jacket function in a really wide range of temps without being too warm. Wind obviously cuts through, but if it's windy and nasty enough for that to be an issue I typically have a shell on anyhow. There have been a surprising number of colder touring days where I've left the jacket on all day and not had to change my layers at all.

[sruffian]

A Windstopper laminate soft shell with non-lam side panels, e.g., Marmot Leadville, worn N2S works okay for skinning, temp regulated with zipper and hat.


Insulation is for breaks, transitions and downhills.

Not as heavy a sweater, but I generally agree with this sentiment. Only difference for me is a wear a very light base layer under a marmot windstopper softshell. This works for me on 90% of dawn patrols, all cold days, and cold/windy days in the alpine.

I ski with a lot of guys with fancy patagucci insulation layers, etc, and they stop more often to shed or put on layers than I do. If we are ALREADY STOPPED and planning to post up for a minute (lunch, complex decision making, 10 minute breaks), I pull out a puffy. Don't carry a hard shell unless it's really nuking (even then I rarely wear it) or multi-day trips.

FWIW, pants make a big difference. I'll skin in full side zip goretex bibs on deep days, and with the vents wide open I still rarely need a softshell. Softshell and those bibs was very toasty down to -5 degrees last year (pre-dawn, coldest day of the year last year in tahoe). Normally rock very light softshell pants.

[jacob_dbu]

I own the Xenon, and it's great for a light synthetic puffy. But the Montbell Mirage Parka is way, WAY warmer at the same weight (12 oz) -- that jacket has the best warmth/weight ratio of any I've found -- full box baffle and the down is over 40% of the total jacket weight. (Full box baffle instead of sewn-through construction is extremely hard to find in jackets under 1 lb.) Only downside is the face fabric is very thin (7D). It goes into my ski pack and backpacking pack as the only puffy.

The Montbell looks awesome, but it's really a different class of jacket. What do you use the Xenon for then?

[auvgeek]

The Montbell looks awesome, but it's really a different class of jacket. What do you use the Xenon for then?

Yes, it is. As I said in the rest of my post, I (like many others) don't need/use a midlayer while moving, pretty much ever. The combo of NTS (next to skin; DIY-Steve calls it N2S) semi-VB (semi-permeable vapor barrier) for moving and ultra-light puffy for transitions/breaks works really well for general ski touring. Highly recommend you try it and stop playing around with layers. Won't keep you "comfortably warm" for an extended period of not moving in temps below about 10-15F, but it's incredibly light and works very well for the typical tour.

I use the Xenon for climbing or when I expect my insulation might get wet. It doesn't see too much use since I bought the Montbell.

[jacob_dbu]

Yeah I will plan on doing something like that. I was just trying to justify keeping this Xenon I got haha.

[auvgeek]

I was just trying to justify keeping this Xenon I got haha.

Well, I think it's always smart to have a synthetic piece for when you might end up very wet. Like touring in the rain in the PNWet, belaying in a light drizzle (that could turn to rain), etc. But if I could only have one, it would be the Montbell, no contest.

The only time I could see the potential for a breathable synthetic piece is cold-weather technical climbing, which I'm just barely starting to break into. I run cooler and cold-sweat when technical climbing, which feels different than the typical sweat during a primarily aerobic activity like skinning or booting. I sweat a lot regardless.

[XXX-er]

-25 at asulkan hut and I was skinning in a Patagucci softshell with NO base layer which was OK as long as I didnt stop ... perhaps an extreme example

typicaly I start with everything on and plan to stop up the trail after 10 min to do moving beacon checks/ take off that top insulating layer

I have since taken up wearing a base layer again but you don't really need to and if you don't wear one ... it won't get soaked in sweat

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I run hot but sweat little. I've taken to wearing running/sun-shirt base layers designed to dry quickly. I seldom need the extra insulation, and if I do sweat a bit during a tricky bit of climbing, I'm dry within a couple minutes.

[mall walker]

I run hot but sweat little. I've taken to wearing running/sun-shirt base layers designed to dry quickly. I seldom need the extra insulation, and if I do sweat a bit during a tricky bit of climbing, I'm dry within a couple minutes.

Same. I've tried to get into merino base layers but just can't do it, they get too damp. I have a quiver of long sleeve running tees (wicking) that are perfect for skinning though.

[ffmedic84]

I just picked up the Marmot ROM for a good price. Breathable with Gore Wind Stopper. I plan on using it over my R1 once the wind picks up. I'll report back on how breathable it really is. I tend to be a heavy sweater.

[Reformed]

I fought against the popularity of the Arcteryx Beta LT for a lot of years

Oops. Atom LT, not Beta.
Only complaint is the hood makes layering awkward and the zipper doesn't lock in place if it's not done all the way up/has another hood under it. Other than that it's like a comfy hoody that punches WAY above its weight, weighs less and sheds wind and precip better. My next one probably won't have a hood so that it functions as a mid-layer a little better.
It's important to know that jackets in this class are not a replacement for a decent down jacket. I always have one of those in my pack in case the day turns nasty or the shit hits the fan.

[SkiBall]

Good timing on this post. My Rab Windbloc hoodie is getting long in the tooth.

I've been looking at the FRS BOSS 3.0 (http://www.freeridesystems.com/produ...ardface-hoodie) as well.

My conundrum is those nasty Front Range winds which I find make it very difficult to regulate temperatures in. I've been considering using a lightweight softshell instead, but at the same time, trying to keep the bulk down. Some experimentation is in order.

Adding a Houdini to the FRS hoodie sounds like a workable concept, but I'd rather not have to stop/start to add/remove layers. I sweat a lot.

... Thom

I got one of those Boss's a couple weeks ago and it is a nice piece. I haven't been able to really put it to the test yet obviously, but I think this with a good shell would work great. Remember those Boss's run big. I got an L when I normally wear XL.

[doebedoe]

I got one of those Boss's a couple weeks ago and it is a nice piece. I haven't been able to really put it to the test yet obviously, but I think this with a good shell would work great. Remember those Boss's run big. I got an L when I normally wear XL.

I don't find the Bross to run big. Long yes, but not big. Unless they changed the design recently.

I have a Bross 2.0 non-hardface. It's basically a variation on the gucci R1. I wear it a fuck ton -- around the house, bike rides to work, going uphill, mid layer most resort days.

Certainly my most used piece of clothing.

[SkiBall]

I don't find the Bross to run big. Long yes, but not big. Unless they changed the design recently.

I have a Bross 2.0 non-hardface. It's basically a variation on the gucci R1. I wear it a fuck ton -- around the house, bike rides to work, going uphill, mid layer most resort days.

Certainly my most used piece of clothing.

I bought a large instead of usual XL and rep (not MiCol) said it ran big, so take that for what it's worth. It's the 3.0 one. Have a similar lighter piece from 2-3years ago and was told they run big prior but still got the XL. I kinda swim in it, but it is damn comfy. Just not as warm as this new one.

[TG]

I have a quiver of long sleeve running tees (wicking) that are perfect for skinning though.

can you share some brand specifics?
how's the odor control?

[I've seen black diamonds!]

can you share some brand specifics?
how's the odor control?

Patagonia Forerunner. Good performance and lasts forever. I haven't had stink issues. Not the softest but they dry very, very fast. They don't always sell these. Not sure why, as they never seem to be on sale, which suggests they have no problem selling them.

More recently I've used some Exofficio sun shirts, including one that has head/face coverage. Also good, but can't speak to durability or long term odor control.

[SKIP IN7RO]

Ah, the annual skinning layer thread. I'll post what I post every year cuz it what works for me after years of experimentation: I'm a heavy sweater. Lightweight next-to-skin semi-VB works best for me in a wide range of temps, i.e., 0F to 40F, regulate body temp with zipper and hood/hat. My favorite lightweight N2S semi-VB is a MH Effusion hoody, which is discontinued, to my chagrin. A Windstopper laminate soft shell with non-lam side panels, e.g., Marmot Leadville, worn N2S works okay for skinning, temp regulated with zipper and hat.

If you aren't a heavy sweater, a base layer under light windshell (e.g., Houdini jacket or vest) should work, but I sweat too much for that.

Insulation is for breaks, transitions and downhills.

YMMV

Thanks for the simplified VB info! I have read this https://www.warmlite.com/vapor-barrier/ before, but your run-down makes more sense to me. Also, they just moved to CO.

[N1CK.]

I don't find the Bross to run big. Long yes, but not big. Unless they changed the design recently.

I have a Bross 2.0 non-hardface. It's basically a variation on the gucci R1. I wear it a fuck ton -- around the house, bike rides to work, going uphill, mid layer most resort days.

Certainly my most used piece of clothing.

I own a patagucci R1 and the Bross hardface hoody. The Bross is WARM and could be an outer layer on a mild, dry day.

[auvgeek]

Thanks for the simplified VB info! I have read this https://www.warmlite.com/vapor-barrier/ before, but your run-down makes more sense to me. Also, they just moved to CO.

Steve has posted about this extensively -- searching will yield an awesome amount of info. His semi-VB next to skin idea is different than the full VB offered from Stephenson's warmlight and RBH Designs (and others) -- IMO, it works better for moving in warmer (10F -35F) temps and is way more comfortable than a plastic bag next to your skin. In very cold temps, a thin baselayer with a full VB would work just fine.

[bodywhomper]

Anybody remember the old Stephenson's catalogs?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using TGR Forums mobile app

[kootenayskier]

What I’ve found works for me, ski touring in -15 to +5 degrees (centigrade).

Base Layer: Icebreaker one-sheep suit. Luxurious warmth in all conditions. The hood works well for regulating my temperature.

Skinning Layer: Salomon S-Lab Motion Fit Windstopper Jacket, a soft shell jacket made for XC skiing. Handles the wind, doesn’t wet out in heavy snow, isnt too warm for hard trail breaking, and the ventilation holes in the back work better than any wonder fabric for breathability. (Pants aren’t so critical, but I’m currently using Dynafit Chugach Windstopper Pants, and they’re fine).

Resting/Descent Layer: Patagonia Nano Storm Jacket. Combines a puffy and a shell, and the active insulation adds to its usable range. I start with it on, take it off if/when I get too warm, and put it back on just before I reach the top.

[SKIP IN7RO]

I have acquired quite a few of the FRS Bross....old boss gave me a coupe hand-me-downs, MiCol and I did a trade a couple years back. Anyway, I have too many, and they are free, but you pay to ship.

One is the 2.0, size large, black R1 style fabric.
The other is the same but medium, and the sleeves have been cut off....sleeveless hoody.

Both have lots of life left, but became pet hair magnets around my house. I just threw them both in the washer and can get some pics tomorrow.

[Peruvian]

I have acquired quite a few of the FRS Bross....old boss gave me a coupe hand-me-downs, MiCol and I did a trade a couple years back. Anyway, I have too many, and they are free, but you pay to ship.

One is the 2.0, size large, black R1 style fabric.
The other is the same but medium, and the sleeves have been cut off....sleeveless hoody.

Both have lots of life left, but became pet hair magnets around my house. I just threw them both in the washer and can get some pics tomorrow.

Dibs on large and pm sent.

[SKIP IN7RO]

Both have been spoken for.

[GeezerSteve]

Anybody masturbated to the old Stephenson's catalogs?

FIFY