Letter to Marker Re-Kingpin

[JRainey]

^^^Lots of dick swinging up there.

I have had great luck with a 16/17 pair for two seasons. 3 FWQ comps, lots of hardpack jumps and generally using them as an alpine binding.

But I will retire them due to safety concerns. It's not worth it waiting for them to explode. Maybe it never happens, I just won't wait to find out.

[stuntmanbo]

I also used a 16/17 pair "almost" as an alpine binding for 1 season and a half without issues ... But I'm light and don't do jumps.

Not sure I'll continue to use them though, as you say safety is a concern, and I don't see the point of the kingpin now that there is the shift for a 50/50 use, and much lighter but still serious alternatives for touring, like the ATK Raider 12 for example.

[TahoeJ]

Does my good fortune redeem Marker for mistakes with the Kingpins? Nope, but it doesn’t mean the Kingpin is a lemon. It means that some fraction of a percent of Kingspins failed

A fraction of a percent? You're just guessing. They're doing a recall, so I suspect it's more than that (or would be given enough time). Considering that the failures are catastrophic, by definition these bindings are in fact a lemon.

[nickel]

Like i said; the choice validation team around here say some nonsense. Fraction of a percent my ass. I had all 4 corners of the binding self destruct.

[doebedoe]

.... Does my lack of luck with P18s this year mean everyone should bail on them because they could leave you very stranded or seriously hurt, I don’t think so....

I get you're frustrated, but fact is the use case of a Kingpin and P18 is very different. If a P18 explodes on you, rarely are you deep in the backcountry without a way to get out. Nor are you likely hours away from medical attention if need be. If you're deep in the backcountry on P18s you got more problems than your bindings.

[auvgeek]

I get you're frustrated, but fact is the use case of a Kingpin and P18 is very different. If a P18 explodes on you, rarely are you deep in the backcountry without a way to get out. Nor are you likely hours away from medical attention if need be. If you're deep in the backcountry on P18s you got more problems than your bindings.

That said, people ski YFYD lines/speed on both alpine and tech binders. Failure really isn't acceptable in either case, no matter how close medical attention might be. And I would argue that 1) people often modify their skiing in the deep backcountry specifically for the reason that medical attention is hard to get and 2) people ski P18s in lift-accessed terrain where help (or a way out in the case of an injured person with binding failure) is hours away but they ski like medical attention is readily available.

OTOH, nickel makes an excellent point that anecdotal failures are much more important to report than anecdotal successes. Obviously, some of the binders have worked fine, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

[doebedoe]

OTOH, nickel makes an excellent point that anecdotal failures are much more important to report than anecdotal successes. Obviously, some of the binders have worked fine, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

This is the heart of the problem. The assumed state of binding is "not catastrophically failing".

[auvgeek]

This is the heart of the problem. The assumed state of binding is "not catastrophically failing".

Yeah but if skibrd started a thread with pictures about how P18s blow up and they need to be recalled, how many people would chime in about how they've skied P18s for years with no issues? Would nickel (or others) jump in with the same fervor whenever someone posted a success story? I think that's at least partially his (skibrd's) point.

PS. skibrd, thanks for the heads up on the ZB. I'll keep an eye on mine.

[nickel]

If i had no experience with the hypothetical p18 situation i would stay out of the discussion. I'm making the point here because I'm directly involved having had multiple failures.

[auvgeek]

Yeah, sorry -- I meant people in general; not trying to call you out specifically for a hypothetical situation. The thing is, many people who skied P18s for years would likely comment about how they've had no issues. I know I probably would. And I've seen that happen many, many times on TGR without anyone calling them out on it. Someone reports an issue, and tons of people back that they've had no issues.

I'm just saying there's a bias here for certain brands, metal, and old-skool cool and a bias against Marker, plastic, and new products. If you start a thread about how P18s and Lange boots are failing and need to be recalled, you won't win any friends on TGR.

[doebedoe]

To be fair, Look recalled Pivots last year, including the P18. Prior to any widespread posting about catastrophic failures. I don't recall anyone defending them or saying their bindings were fine so the product is fine.

[auvgeek]

okay, that's fair. I forgot about that particular recall ... probably because I never found out why it happened. Which is kind of the point you're making -- they took care of it early unlike Marker.

[XavierD]

One thing to say in defense of Marker’s apparent slow and limited reaction (I’m tempted to repost the front falling off video) is the number of reported issues (many) against the total number of bindings sold (many many more). My question is how many of those bindings have been skied enough to be statistically relevant, and how would marker track this? So, lets say Marker has delt with 600 warrantied bindings (500 from 17/18, 100 from prior production) yet has sold 20,000 pairs (10,000: 17/18, 10,000: older). I think those numbers are fairly reasonable. That’s 3%, and totally reasonable for most products. Now, I also think it’s reasonable to assume 50% of those sold have been skied less than 10 hours of descent (assume it takes ~24 hours, or 3-8 days of skiing) to accumulate any fatigue. Many people who bought this binding appear to be of the ‘touring is cool, maybe I’ll try it’ crowd. Add another 15% who haven’t reached the 24 hour mark or are too damn skinny and light to count. Now we have a statistical issue, and needs to be warrantied, but only so from the 17/18 line, where many more were sold than any other singular issue. The question though is how would marker track these things?

[skibrd]

... Now we have a statistical issue, and needs to be warrantied, but only so from the 17/18 line, where many more were sold than any other singular issue. The question though is how would marker track these things?

Nickle, did you have 4 failures at once or 4 separate times? That sucks either way, but that has to be some statistical anomaly where you were at the far end of the Bell curve.

I wish info about the % of failures were know because then we could make an educated decision with more information about what binding we wanted to ski. Instead, we hear horror stories about pins and heel pieces on KPs blowing up.

My P18 issue was related to being a dumbass, and just worn out turn tables (I need to stop buying used bindings). In all 3 cases I was lucky that I noticed the issue while at the base and not skiing yet. Same with my ZBs, I noticed the crack when I went to put them on (we ground them a little too thin to make them fit and oops, they failed, my fault not Langes and I won’t warranty them because I went too far), so I wasn’t skiing them when they died. I’ve been lucky to not be hours from help when things have failed and I 100% understand that we can’t have equipment failing in terrible places.

It would be interesting to see if someone could start a consumer watch dog group that tracked types of failures for sports equipment, or does that already exist? I wasn’t able find any with a quick search on Google.

[nickel]

Nickle, did you have 4 failures at once or 4 separate times? That sucks either way, but that has to be some statistical anomaly where you were at the far end of the Bell curve.

2 separate toe failures. Different days. One slackcountry that was just a PIA, one hut trip cut short with a ~10km skin out after cobbling together a system over what whiskey I had left. Both heels were discovered when I was removing the first toe for warranty. I asked my local tech if they'd had any heel issues and how worried I should be about the wobble that seems to develop in everyone's heel pieces. The answer was very as we removed the heels from the track and found cracks in all 4 rails.

As far as the bell curve, They were blowing up a lot in whistler. I would peg it at 25% of users I know with kingpins had issues. This might not line up at all with overal kingpin statistics, but I knew at least 7 people who experiences failures. More pins than heels, but still multiple heels.

These are not my first tech bindings. most problems I've encountered have been with ancillaries like risers and such. I always carry enough stuff to be able to affix a boot to ski ghetto style to be able to make it home, this is the first binding that's made me use it so much.

[Angle Parking]

Buddy up here broke 3 toe pieces and 2 heel pieces last season. I don’t think Nickel’s failures are that far towards the end of the Bell curve

[XXX-er]

You ^^ must be talking about Geoff, he skis a lot , a big guy but pretty mellow, this was his second season on those Kingpins which broke very early in the season, I would hear about all his breakdowns riding the chair

There was also a group of them carpenter types who had 5 breakages between them in a week

[HukuTa_KydecHuk]

just got back from a hut trip to Kazakhstan. First day dude in my group broke a pin on a toe he got replaced by Marker a month ago. Luckily a random local cnc guy was able to craft a new pin, but after few days a pin on another toe cracked. fucking beware of this binding, it can ruin your trip

[XXX-er]

fucking beware of this binding, it can ruin your trip

Even tho its probably the most reliable AT binding out there I took a spare Vertical heel & toe on a trip to Japan,

it weighs almost nothing and who wants to be looking for a spare parts on a ski trip ?

[galibier_numero_un]

Even tho its probably the most reliable AT binding out there I took a spare Vertical heel & toe on a trip to Japan,

it weighs almost nothing and who wants to be looking for a spare parts on a ski trip ?

^^^ this ^^^

(now, if I could get to Japan).

[mcski]

Im kinda amazed anyone would trust a kingpin on a trip like that after all the breakage reports. Especially after a waranty replacement. Smh

[HukuTa_KydecHuk]

Im kinda amazed anyone would trust a kingpin on a trip like that after all the breakage reports. Especially after a waranty replacement. Smh

they were last gen, copper color, not affected by recall and straight from marker rep, so he wasn't expecting. But yeah, I agree, I said the same.

[toast2266]

I'm not sure why anyone trusts any lightweight binding for a big, remote trip. Hell, I bring spares for almost everything on a long weekend road trip.

[nickel]

king pin is not lightweight and is the least trust worthy piece of equipment i have owned in the last 15 years. total garbage. the recall was a joke as well.

[XXX-er]

all kinds of Kingpin failures on TGR and skiers I know in my town

but in the BC shop 400kms east they tell me there were exactly 2 Kingpin breakdowns

Geoff the big guy who had 5 failures last year didn't have any this year

I'm looking for the pattern and i just don't get it