Manitoba Mountain, Alaska: SKI DREAMS DO COME TRUE!

[carpathian]

Speaking of powder skiing in AK:

http://live.tetongravity.com/_News-A...855/75233.html

[raisingarizona13]

Pretty damn cool! Nice work MRA, thanks for the vision and your hard work.

[stalefish3169]

Nice! That looks pretty sick, but am I off base when I say that the Juneau Headwall looks like it has a nasty terrain trap from the second picture down? It looks like the slide paths easily reach that creek from the picture. Would be good to see a lift go in for the kiddies. Always feel bad for the groms in Haines that don't have a chair to learn on.

[carpathian]

^^ Half the skied drainages in the area end in creeks like the Juneau headwall area. I guess pick your days. I like the fact that you can chose any aspect from the ridge top. Hot and sunny, maybe stay on north sides?

That face does at least look broken up enough to not propagate huge...?

[stalefish3169]

^^ Half the skied drainages in the area end in creeks like the Juneau headwall area. I guess pick your days. I like the fact that you can chose any aspect from the ridge top. Hot and sunny, maybe stay on north sides?

That face does at least look broken up enough to not propagate huge...?

Hard to tell from a photo, but my immediate reaction was that those paths are going to be running to the creek at least a few times a season. I also imagine there would be a traverse at the bottom back to the base with a lot of defenseless skiers if a slide came down from above. Probably wouldn't be an issue most days, but...... Kind of seems like an intensive avy control program would be required to open that type of terrain with a bunch of people on it. Not saying it's impossible otherwise, but getting slid into a drainage like that would be game over. Again, tough to say from a photo, but I think even in spite of the convoluted terrain along the starting zones, it looks like plenty of 'em have the potential to go big.

[BFD]

anybody ever skied with Dave Scanlan? 10 years of planning resorts in AK wonder which ones. Do they really think they can have a nordic area by next year?

[covert]

Most of the avalanche terrain in the photos is not actually in the proposed in-bounds area, including the Juneau Headwall. Definitely big exposure but it's almost all OB.

[powdork]

it could end up being the type of thing where you go with a guide, and they have protocols (as well as radio contact with other guides) to keep you out of other party's fall lines. it's one thing to go ob and die in an avalanche. it's another to have a business model that sends groups out on top of each other in terrain where sending a slide down on an exiting group is foreseeable. it's not something that can't be worked out, just something that has to be considered. and even after that it still may be "you're out of bounds, proceed at your own risk".

[sqikunst]

^^ People will just have to have their shit together and the resort needs some kind of magical waiver so that every second tom dick or harry cant sue. You can get fucked skiing under anyone if something slides its part of inbounds pow. They need to take of the baby gloves and let skiers sort their own shit out. Patrol is patrol but people will keep making shitty decisions and never learn if they keep getting told "this has been made safe. We have have controlled all avalanche danger". Fuck it, go to an avy course learn a little and spend time in the mountains. Sorry for the rant but ski coddling is just wrong. There should be less "Its safe because we do everything for you and more,

"you're out of bounds, proceed at your own risk"

Alaska is one of those places that is hard to wrap your head around,

A) because its insane, never been personally but just the amount of snow the type of mountains and the aspects that are can be skied make it bonkers.

B) its the wild wild west of skiing and it should stay that way.

End rant.

If that comes off sounding like I have hemroids my apologies.

it's another to have a business model that sends groups out on top of each other in terrain where sending a slide down on an exiting group is foreseeable

^^that is spot on, but in end effect isn't this a non-profit, ski alliance type deal. Not that it makes a difference.

[snomaster]

Have an open gate policy like Jackson Hole Mountain Resort with bullitens, disclaimers and scare tactic signs coupled with heavily encouraged courses held at the base and an available pay-for guide service --> done deal [almost].
I have mixed feeling about avy control outside of resort boundries. Yeah it's safer but the cost could go way up not just from control work but assumed liability. I think the best option is to open it up with OB users having 100 percent risk and work expanded OB control into the game as budget/lawyers allow.
And I totally agree that the "Manitoba" name is Canadian flatlander-esc.
I am excited to see this go down.

[carpathian]

I've probably skied about 300 days with Dave. Solid dude all around.
I know the Manitoba name is funny. Maybe it'll be easier for the lawyers with their disclaimers and such.

The article should specify that Dave has been planning many imaginary ski resorts that have been narrowed down to this project. I remember 10 years ago we were talking about how and where to make the idea happen. Narrowed down by land use issues, snow, sun, populations. I think Summit Pass area is perfect.

It is always sunny in Summit! (due to it's micro interior climate within the Kenai Peninsula)

I think one way to deal with the Juneau headwall issue would be push your exit traverse across the creek into the trees on other side of drainage...?

[Skirotica]

I think one way to deal with the Juneau headwall issue would be push your exit traverse across the creek into the trees on other side of drainage...?

Avalanches run 1/4 - 1/3 mile up the other side on many occasions. A slide off that would probably do the same. The exit would be exposed for a lot of vertical.

[MtnRA]

Here's a good look at the Juneau Creek drainage, taken November, 2010.

[AKturnanburn]

Avalanches run 1/4 - 1/3 mile up the other side on many occasions. A slide off that would probably do the same. The exit would be exposed for a lot of vertical.

East coast AK avy experts are awesome.

Scanlan is a close friend of mine as well as a super solid skier and person all around. He has put tons of time in, researching and networking for years. For the available options, budget, community and multiple other issues, this location and method seems the most plausible and sustainable.

Haters gonna hate, but the possibilities are amazing and north America needs another tiny, low key ski town with no infrastructure and a ski area with epic BC.

[DeathVan]

I Love It!

Good work to all involved.
I will support this by all means at my disposal, let me know how.

SKIING!

[carpathian]

Here is Dave tele shredding in the mighty Kenai Mountains (someone embed please?)

http://www.youtube.com/carpathianskis#p/u/8/LUiFx1zCpTs

Dave was my first ski customer ever, as seen shredding on a pair of Big Dippers. So I feel obliged to support his first mountain project A win/win deal if you ask me!

[stalefish3169]

Most of the avalanche terrain in the photos is not actually in the proposed in-bounds area, including the Juneau Headwall. Definitely big exposure but it's almost all OB.

I get this. Just means that it's going to be extra gnar gnar just outside the ropes. I recently moved away from Bridger Bowl. They got lucky w/ the Saddle Peak slide. Could've been 20-30 killed, easily.

it could end up being the type of thing where you go with a guide, and they have protocols (as well as radio contact with other guides) to keep you out of other party's fall lines. it's one thing to go ob and die in an avalanche. it's another to have a business model that sends groups out on top of each other in terrain where sending a slide down on an exiting group is foreseeable. it's not something that can't be worked out, just something that has to be considered. and even after that it still may be "you're out of bounds, proceed at your own risk".

I would say this kind of terrain would almost have to use strict protocols. Guided access is probably a good place to start. Without radio coordination, people skiing on top of others could get nasty. Maybe avy certifications or a competency exam could be required for OB. I always wanted to see that at Bridger. Made more sense than the beacon requirement. Any tool can borrow a beacon (Brider's slushy chair req.).

^^ People will just have to have their shit together and the resort needs some kind of magical waiver so that every second tom dick or harry cant sue. You can get fucked skiing under anyone if something slides its part of inbounds pow. They need to take of the baby gloves and let skiers sort their own shit out. Patrol is patrol but people will keep making shitty decisions and never learn if they keep getting told "this has been made safe. We have have controlled all avalanche danger". Fuck it, go to an avy course learn a little and spend time in the mountains. Sorry for the rant but ski coddling is just wrong. There should be less "Its safe because we do everything for you and more,



Alaska is one of those places that is hard to wrap your head around,

A) because its insane, never been personally but just the amount of snow the type of mountains and the aspects that are can be skied make it bonkers.

B) its the wild wild west of skiing and it should stay that way.

End rant.

If that comes off sounding like I have hemroids my apologies.



^^that is spot on, but in end effect isn't this a non-profit, ski alliance type deal. Not that it makes a difference.

Waivers don't really mean shit in the U.S. People will still file lawsuits.

Here's a good look at the Juneau Creek drainage, taken November, 2010.

Damn. That is a scary picture. Those alders are 15' easy at the bottom and you can clearly see where slides have taken a lot of 'em out. I shudder thinking about a slide into that creek bed.

Really not trying to hate, but that is some serious serious terrain. Just a few kooks, experienced people making poor decisions, or plain bad luck could turn into a nightmare scenario very quickly.

The whole mountain plan is sort of a new model. Perhaps Silverton is the only real peer in this category. I know it hasn't been easy for them. So good luck I guess. Seems like a step in the right direction for the dirt baggin' uber gnar niche market.

[covert]

Maybe avy certifications or a competency exam could be required for OB

I like the premise behind this but wonder what sort of liability it would entail. If you give a competency exam and pass someone aren't you assuming a degree of responsibility? Maybe a required briefing or information session would be easier.

Possible conflict of interest if the ski area is signing off on someones competency to travel OB.

Interesting question: how would you implement the requirement for avy certification? just have people sign something saying 'yes i have taken level 1, 2, etc.' ?

[powdork]

keep in mind that's just one of aspects you can hike to.

[AKturnanburn]

The pics are deceiving, the drainage is much wider than it looks, there is a safe route out in all but the gnarliest of avy cycles. That terrain makes for a bit of a plopper slide path with it going from steep to flat in a relatively short distance, dissipating the energy. There is a small section that goes to a terrain trap though. In general there will have to be some organization and rules in all the OB terrain and radios could be the ultimate answer. Also, that is not the better aspect due to sun and wind affect.

[wendigo]

You are totally high if you think that "there is a safe route out in all but the gnarliest of avy cycles". It is a dumb place to be in anything other than green light situations. Check out "Snowy Torrents" from the late 70s - a few people got wrapped up in a big slide in there, one lived the others showed up in June.

As access to this area is completely open I don't really see any reason for a resort. I will however be happy to bitch loudly if skinning access to the area is to suffer at all. And all of you talking about the cowboy Alaska scene - then talking radios and guides and waivers for an area you can ski already! can piss off.

[snomaster]

oh fuck, it can avalanche there into a terrain trap? better blockade any affordable resort development! Ever been to the side country of major western NA or European resorts? internet critics are so brilliant, eh?

[covert]

booze must be kicking in

[wendigo]

yes snomaster - i'm sure you have spent plenty of time skiing manitoba or traversing over to silvertip or checking out the massive valley wide avalanches in lynx creek last season. unless you are involved then i'm fairly certain that makes you the internet critic.

the onus is on mra to sell me, and others like me, on why we would care to give up an area that is freely open to skiing, in order to pay and deal with shitty lifts, liability waivers, guides and all the other bullshit - when hiking has been "sustainable" for years?

[powdork]

i don't know the details as they will be worked out. all i mentioned was that when they come up for a plan for bc access (presumably only for those that use a lift) consideration must be given to the dangers of the area, one of which would be parties exiting after they ski the headwall while others ski down from above. i don't know why this would prevent anyone from skinning there, and i wouldn't think any regulations would apply to those who didn't access via a lift. although again, i don't know the details. obviously, skinning there would have it's drawbacks since the area would likely (undoubtedly?) see more traffic.
keep in mind, i'm of the opinion that anything that gets more people to do what we do is a good thing, even if it means i have to get up earlier or go farther to do it.