Electric Bike Thread

[californiagrown]

"At one point?" There was never a point in time when bikes were banned from all trails. Prior to the eighties bikes were allowed everywhere. Bikes were ridden across most of the continent by buffalo soldiers. In 1965, fresh off signing the Wilderness Act, President Johnson said in reference to trails: "The forgotten outdoorsmen of today are those who like to walk, hike, ride horseback or bicycle. For them we must have trails as well as highways. Nor should motor vehicles be permitted to tyrannize the more leisurely human traffic."

Obviously there's a difference between electric motors and gas engines. But they were all banned in designated wilderness in 1964, while bikes were only banned by the USFS (not Congress) in 1984--and the fight over that continues with broader implications for designated and non-designated wilderness in large portions of the country. Much of our national trail system (such as it is) included. Jealousy has nothing to do with the risk of losing access.

Done right I can see e-bikes being beneficial in all sorts of ways (they're almost certainly less of a problem than many fear), but there are designations for land (as well as trails) that ban motors and those designations would have to change before e-bikes would be legal there. Does that matter? Do e-bikers want access to those places? IDK. Maybe they need an e-bike coalition. Just do yourselves a favor and don't let an e-IMBA start speaking for you; it won't end well.

So, at one point there was a very obvious line stating no machines on the trail. The risk of losing access is very real if e-bikes continue to poach trails as they are lumped into MTB as a whole and if you cant easily tell the difference between motorized vs not motorized then everyone risks losing access. And to me that is the only legitimate reasoning against riding e-bikes on trials at this time.

However, i am asking IF the law/rules should be changed to fully legalize and condone "pedal assist" e-bikes on the same trails normal MTB are allowed on. I have yet to hear any objective, logical reasons, or reasons not based on jealousy or selfishness.

[GoldMember]

Obviously there's a difference between electric motors and gas engines. But they were all banned in designated wilderness in 1964, while bikes were only banned by the USFS (not Congress) in 1984--and the fight over that continues with broader implications for designated and non-designated wilderness in large portions of the country. Much of our national trail system (such as it is) included. Jealousy has nothing to do with the risk of losing access.

Done right I can see e-bikes being beneficial in all sorts of ways (they're almost certainly less of a problem than many fear), but there are designations for land (as well as trails) that ban motors and those designations would have to change before e-bikes would be legal there. Does that matter? Do e-bikers want access to those places? IDK. Maybe they need an e-bike coalition. Just do yourselves a favor and don't let an e-IMBA start speaking for you; it won't end well.

H.R. 1349 was introduced to rectify the USFS action that outlawed MTB use in Wilderness Areas so that issue could be resolved through legislative action. It's still in committee, I believe but our friends at IMBA aren't very helpful:

“As we gain ground in these efforts, we feel it is unwise to amend the Wilderness Act—one of the nation’s most important conservation laws—when the outcome mountain bikers desire can be reached through on-the-ground collaborative efforts.” They also unequivocally state, “IMBA is not supporting H.R. 1349.”

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/tr...es-wilderness/

It would seem IMBA has taken a stance that is opposite to their professed goal of gaining and maintaining access for mountain biking. If they take this kind of stance against mountain bikes in wilderness areas, I don't think anyone could depend on them for advocating for access for e-bikes. HR 1349 will hopefully get its day in legislation since having the USFS change a 20 year old law by regulatory action was overreach. What really gets me about IMBA's action on this legislation is that they reversed course on STC and testified against their testimony after having previously agreeing to present a unified front and not be in conflict with one another. IMBA back-stabbed STC on this and the HR languishes in the meantime. Not a good look for IMBA as I see it.

[mmmm...pow!]

This is some funny shit. This thread is a PRIME example of the non ebikers having the MASSIVE BUTTHURTZZZZzz. Lmao!

I'm on the side saying motorized bikes should not be allowed on trails that don't allow motorized vehicles, which is the current status quo in most places, so no butthurt here. Again, I'm not against emotorbikes, just feel they shouldn't be allowed everywhere, just like mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere.

[californiagrown]

Again, I'm not against emotorbikes, just feel they shouldn't be allowed everywhere, just like mountain bikes aren't allowed everywhere.

Why do you feel that the pedal-assist ebikes shouldnt be allowed where MTBs are allowed?

[MultiVerse]

The risk of losing access is very real if e-bikes continue to poach trails as they are lumped into MTB as a whole

However, i am asking IF the law/rules should be changed to fully legalize and condone "pedal assist" e-bikes on the same trails normal MTB are allowed on. I have yet to hear any objective, logical reasons, or reasons not based on jealousy or selfishness.

Other than for the elderly and disabled, I have yet to hear any objective, logical reasons, or reasons not based on jealousy or selfishness why motorized ebikes should be allowed on non-motorized trails.

It's just turtles all the way down with these types of proclamations.

[toast2266]

Why do you feel that the pedal-assist ebikes shouldnt be allowed where MTBs are allowed?

1) in a lot of places, they are allowed where mtb's are allowed. Because those trails are open to motorized vehicles, and are used by both mtbs and motos.

2) if the trails aren't open to motorized vehicles, then ebikes aren't allowed. Because they have a motor. This isn't complicated. The fact that the throttle actuation is via the pedals is entirely irrelevant.

3) if ebikers want access to non motorized trails, then they need to lobby the land managers to change the rules for that specific trail. Acting like ebikes are the same as mountain bikes isn't the way to do this, and it's the reason a large group of people are beginning to hate the ebikers.

4) in many cases, allowing ebikes on trails that are currently non-motorized wouldn't bother me since I don't think ebikes are particularly impactful. But the ebike crowd is going to have to figure out how to reliably differentiate themselves from electric dirt bikes.



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[californiagrown]

Other than for the elderly and disabled, I have yet to hear any objective, logical reasons, or reasons not based on jealousy or selfishness why ebikes should be allowed on MTB only trails.

It's just turtles all the way down.

Because e-bikes will use those public trails in the same manner, and to the same effect as normal MTB so there will be no undue trail use conflict, or burden on the existing user group.

[rideit]

Because e-bikes will use those public trails in the same manner, and to the same effect as normal MTB so there will be no undue trail use conflict, or burden on the existing user group.

Bullshit.

[californiagrown]

1) in a lot of places, they are allowed where mtb's are allowed. Because those trails are open to motorized vehicles, and are used by both mtbs and motos.

2) if the trails aren't open to motorized vehicles, then ebikes aren't allowed. Because they have a motor. This isn't complicated. The fact that the throttle actuation is via the pedals is entirely irrelevant.

3) if ebikers want access to non motorized trails, then they need to lobby the land managers to change the rules for that specific trail. Acting like ebikes are the same as mountain bikes isn't the way to do this, and it's the reason a large group of people are beginning to hate the ebikers.

4) in many cases, allowing ebikes on trails that are currently non-motorized wouldn't bother me since I don't think ebikes are particularly impactful. But the ebike crowd is going to have to figure out how to reliably differentiate themselves from electric dirt bikes.



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So if it was all up to you, you would allow e-mtb bikes on all trails where mtb was allowed?

[GoldMember]

Why do you feel that the pedal-assist e-bikes shouldnt be allowed where MTBs are allowed?

I'll throw something out that I think could be an issue. I noted before that I don't particularly have a personal concern where I ride as there's hardly anyone out there, anyway. Having said that, I could imagine an area that has more traffic with a fair amount of single-track climbing involved could have some conflicts. I wouldn't want to be grinding up a hill and have an ebike come ripping up from behind. Or riding a fairly flat single-track and have an e-bike come ripping by. I think speed is the big differentiation. Yes, they only go to 20 mph but my average speed on my rides is around 12 mph on windy single-track, mostly. When at my fastest, I'm maybe going 25 downhill, no problem but that's not much of my ride. And at that, I've come across horses at a pretty good speed, had to lock it up, apologize to the riders (who were very friendly, no problems), then go on. If e-bike comes along in that same scenario, it could be a different and not-so-good outcome. With that, the horse riders are likely to get more spooked and report that 'some guy on a mountain bike going really fast just ran us off the trail.' They won't likely see the distinction of it being an e-bike, just some guy that was riding too fast for the conditions.

Anyway, like I noted, I really don't care and WA state has a law that prohibits them where I ride so it's not my fight. But I can see where the speed differential is probably the single biggest point of conflict at this time. That's not to mention what may happen in the future as technology makes them better.

[toast2266]

So if it was all up to you, you would allow e-mtb bikes on all trails where mtb was allowed?

It'd vary from trail to trail, the same as it varies from trail to trail for every other distinct user group.

Ebikes aren't mountain bikes, so you can't just lump them together in terms of access. They're different, and the considerations as to where they should (or shouldn't) be allowed are different.

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[californiagrown]

I'll throw something out that I think could be an issue. I noted before that I don't particularly have a personal concern where I ride as there's hardly anyone out there, anyway. Having said that, I could imagine an area that has more traffic with a fair amount of single-track climbing involved could have some conflicts. I wouldn't want to be grinding up a hill and have an ebike come ripping up from behind. Or riding a fairly flat single-track and have an e-bike come ripping by. I think speed is the big differentiation. Yes, they only go to 20 mph but my average speed on my rides is around 12 mph on windy single-track, mostly. When at my fastest, I'm maybe going 25 downhill, no problem but that's not much of my ride. And at that, I've come across horses at a pretty good speed, had to lock it up, apologize to the riders (who were very friendly, no problems), then go on. If e-bike comes along in that same scenario, it could be a different and not-so-good outcome. With that, the horse riders are likely to get more spooked and report that 'some guy on a mountain bike going really fast just ran us off the trail.' They won't likely see the distinction of it being an e-bike, just some guy that was riding too fast for the conditions.

Anyway, like I noted, I really don't care and WA state has a law that prohibits them where I ride so it's not my fight. But I can see where the speed differential is probably the single biggest point of conflict at this time. That's not to mention what may happen in the future as technology makes them better.

this is all assuming that e-bike riders will be riding too fast for the conditions, and generally be assholes though. Why do you assume that the e-bike riders wouldnt ride too fast for the conditions, slow down when passing, alert you they want to pass on climbs, etc? I would assume most of them are going to be older MTB folks who have ridden around the block a few times and know the etiquette.

IMO, inconsiderate people partake in every activity. Aggro strava XC guys elbowing past me on single track climbs, bros on full DH bikes blasting by hikers and equestrians, hikers not allowing bikers to pass on climbs, etc. If we only looked at the worst behavior, then nothing would be legal anywhere.

[californiagrown]

It'd vary from trail to trail, the same as it varies from trail to trail for every other distinct user group.

Ebikes aren't mountain bikes, so you can't just lump them together in terms of access. They're different, and the considerations as to where they should (or shouldn't) be allowed are different.

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What different parameters and considerations are you thinking will be required?

[Dantheman]

The risk of losing access is very real if e-bikes continue to poach trails as they are lumped into MTB as a whole and if you cant easily tell the difference between motorized vs not motorized then everyone risks losing access. And to me that is the only legitimate reasoning against riding e-bikes on trials at this time.

[toast2266]

What different parameters and considerations are you thinking will be required?

They're slightly heavier and faster, so that'll factor in. But as much as anything, they're just another user group on the trail, and since they have a motor, they can cover far more ground. More users putting in more miles = more impact. And that's not just impact to the trail tread - it also means the trails will feel more crowded, wildlife concerns will be amplified, increased user numbers puts more pressure on trail infrastructure like parking and toilets, etc. Some trail systems can handle those sort of impacts no problem. Some can't.

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[californiagrown]

They're slightly heavier and faster, so that'll factor in. But as much as anything, they're just another user group on the trail, and since they have a motor, they can cover far more ground. More users putting in more miles = more impact. And that's not just impact to the trail tread - it also means the trails will feel more crowded, wildlife concerns will be amplified, increased user numbers puts more pressure on trail infrastructure like parking and toilets, etc. Some trail systems can handle those sort of impacts no problem. Some can't.

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It sounds like all your concerns are the same concerns that hikers once had with MTB. Why do we, as MTBers, have the right to say that we are the cutoff point, and no more users on these trails after us?

If its just the numbers issue, then it seems like you would prefer the sport of MTB to not grow more and bring in new people?

[MultiVerse]

this is all assuming that e-bike riders will be riding too fast for the conditions, and generally be assholes though. Why do you assume that the e-bike riders wouldnt ride too fast for the conditions, slow down when passing, alert you they want to pass on climbs, etc? I would assume most of them are going to be older MTB folks who have ridden around the block a few times and know the etiquette.

IMO, inconsiderate people partake in every activity. Aggro strava XC guys elbowing past me on single track climbs, bros on full DH bikes blasting by hikers and equestrians, hikers not allowing bikers to pass on climbs, etc. If we only looked at the worst behavior, then nothing would be legal anywhere.

Why would anyone assume older more experienced riders are more drawn to ebikes than inexperienced riders when the marketing is going out of it's way to promote the idea that anyone can hop on an ebike and ride like a pro?


And in busier areas we are already seeing more trails designated as uphill only due to complaints from hikers. Adding faster ebike uphill speeds to the mix will only make trail access worse in those areas.

Because e-bikes will use those public trails in the same manner, and to the same effect as normal MTB so there will be no undue trail use conflict, or burden on the existing user group.

Nonsense. And since it is nonsense you haven't given an objective logical reason why, apart from the elderly and disabled, ebikers can't just ride MTBs on non-motorized trails?

[ill-advised strategy]

Motor and non-motor is about as fine a line as there can be. Pretty simple. Not based on an arbitrary speed, or if you have some preexisting medical condition, or anything else - motors don't belong on trails designated as non-motorized. If it's an unofficial trail, fair game. Why do people keep trying to argue against this? If ebikers are so butthurt about it, maybe they can band together, build their own trails, and keep mountain bikes off of them?

You just blew right past my point. The motor/nonmotor line exists as such because it was defined in a time when it was full rigid steel pedal bikes or 2 stroke roosting beasts and nothing in between. Had there been the gradients that exist today, there almost surely would have been more nuance built into the rules.

[californiagrown]

Why would anyone assume older more experienced riders are more drawn to ebikes than inexperienced riders when the marketing is going out it's way to promote the idea that anyone can hop on an ebike and ride like a pro?

I'm already seeing more trails designated as uphill only due to complaints from hikers which has effectively shut down one of my favorite rides. Adding faster ebike uphill speeds to the mix will only make trail access worse in a lot of areas.

I assume that because of the price point to enter the market. People shit there pants when i tell them to budget $2000 for an entry level MTB. When the entry level E-MTBs are going for 2,3,4 times that, the sticker shock is going to keep the casual or curious user away.

Again, why do people assume that e-bikes will be blasting by hikers on the climbs instead of slowing down to pass like normal human beings do?

[toast2266]

It sounds like all your concerns are the same concerns that hikers once had with MTB. Why do we, as MTBers, have the right to say that we are the cutoff point, and no more users on these trails after us?

If its just the numbers issue, then it seems like you would prefer the sport of MTB to not grow more and bring in new people?

Yes, a lot of them are the same concerns hikers had about mtb's. And those concerns are valid. And that's why mtbs aren't allowed on every trail, nor should they be. And that's why mountain bike advocates have put in a shitload of work over the years to advocate for, and build, trails for bikes.

Bikes generally have more impact than hikers. Ebikes generally have more impact than bikes. Dirt bikes generally have more impact than ebikes. Quads generally have more impact than dirt bikes. Jeeps generally have more impact than quads.

There's a fairly common sense hierarchy here. But Ebikers seem to think they're exempt from it.

The only ones that are apparently exempt from it are horses, for reasons that escape me.



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[eldereldo]

I would assume most of them are going to be older MTB folks who have ridden around the block a few times and know the etiquette.

Can’t agree with this, if it was true then the people riding golf carts would mostly be elderly, but they certainly are not. I see more older people walking then young at most courses. Given the opportunity to avoid exercise in order to participate in an activity, it seems most people will jump at it. So legalize ebikes on all mtb trails and you will soon see most people on ebikes, and I suspect that they will mostly be new riders who wouldn’t have considered going on those trails if they had to do so under their own power. Now whether or not that actually makes any difference to how they interact with others, I have no idea, but saying it will be ok because they will mostly be ex pedallers is just wrong.

[MultiVerse]

Again, why do people assume that e-bikes will be blasting by hikers on the climbs instead of slowing down to pass like normal human beings do?

For the reason already given. Trails are increasingly being designated as uphill only due to hiker complaints because bikers are blowing past them on fast downhill sections after the hiker steps aside. Why wouldn't it happen going uphill too with ebikes? Sure, ebikes are unikely to bowl hikers over, obviously, but the faster uphill approach speeds will be more startling and alarming.

[rideit]

I assume that because of the price point to enter the market. People shit there pants when i tell them to budget $2000 for an entry level MTB. When the entry level E-MTBs are going for 2,3,4 times that, the sticker shock is going to keep the casual or curious user away. ?

Prices are going to come down as battery technology most certainly has.
That argument may have some current validity, but not much future validity.

[californiagrown]

Can’t agree with this, if it was true then the people riding golf carts would mostly be elderly, but they certainly are not. I see more older people walking then young at most courses. Given the opportunity to avoid exercise in order to participate in an activity, it seems most people will jump at it. So legalize ebikes on all mtb trails and you will soon see most people on ebikes, and I suspect that they will mostly be new riders who wouldn’t have considered going on those trails if they had to do so under their own power. Now whether or not that actually makes any difference to how they interact with others, I have no idea, but saying it will be ok because they will mostly be ex pedallers is just wrong.

I think there is a very large difference in exercise between walking 18 holes with a push cart at a VERY leisurely pace, versus riding a bike for 2-3000 vertical ft over 10-15 miles with the motor only helping 15%. Along with the high cost of entry i dont see the "younger" or inexperienced crowd as the main user group. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out in the coming years.

[californiagrown]

Prices are going to come down as battery technology most certainly has.
That argument may have some current validity, but not much future validity.

As has been said before, everything about an e-bike is more expensive. All components need to be burlier, the battery + motor, carbon fiber everything so you arent muscling around a 40+lb behemoth. the price of the battery will come down a bit, along with the overall price, but i wouldnt ever expect the cost to be less than double what a comparable spec level MTB to cost.